Null


H8Monday

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: New build disappointment
« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2014, 08:46:09 PM »

you said you have an A impeller put it in.  why the 1.7 rockers? timing should be fine, read your plugs..  did you degree the cam?

I'm going to try to get the impeller installed tomorrow. I'm running REAL short on time now. Work is cutting into my boat wrenching time.

I used 1.7 rockers because thats what the cam specs said to run.

Plugs show fat at 84 squared. I'm now under a time constraint, so I'm going to leave it fat for the weekend. I'll be on Havazoo Sat and Parker on Sun.

Cam was degree'd It was installed straight up and matched the specs on the cam card.

Here is a copy of the cam specs:http://www.cranecams.com/product/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=24363
  • Like
    Dislike
    Love
    HaHa
    Angry
    Surprise
    Sad
    Party

GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: New build disappointment
« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2014, 08:51:21 PM »
You are trying to tune at 4100 feet if you going to be at less than 400?

GT
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
  • Like
    Dislike
    Love
    HaHa
    Angry
    Surprise
    Sad
    Party
If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

icecreaman

  • Karma: +23/-0
Re: New build disappointment
« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2014, 08:55:57 PM »
Those numbers make more sense, 590 Int and 614 exh. 
  • Like
    Dislike
    Love
    HaHa
    Angry
    Surprise
    Sad
    Party

H8Monday

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: New build disappointment
« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2014, 09:02:30 PM »
I'm not sold on the fact that the exhaust is the problem.

You have too much pump. At that altitude, you should be able to pull 5K without much drama.

The camshaft is a selection I am not convinced is right for the combo, the altitude kills it for me. You really need to know how it was installed. I would have installed it 2* earlier than what the cam manufacturer says.

Do you have a vacuum number from the intake manifold?

36 degrees total timing is actually pretty tame for 4100 feet. May have a bit more there. Is it running fat? It should be.

What risers do you have? What is the engine temp running flat out?

Is the bowl stuffed? do you have a loader?

How certain are you that the throttle butterflies are opening 100%?

Sorry to have more questions than answers, but I could not make heads or tails of what you have going on.

Absolutely beautiful boat.

GT


I didn't pull a vacuum number yet

Its running fat. I'm back at the factory installed 84 squared jets. Going lean only made it ping. I didn't pick up a single RPM. I played with timing from 32 to over 45 degrees. No increase in RPM, No ping. BUT, when I started leaning it out, down around 78 size jets, it would pingwith over 32 degrees of timing.

also, I pumped the tanks dry, and did all of this tuning with 30 gallons of Chevron 92 Octane in it today.

Exhaust is Harman Marine long bolt logs with matching snails.

 Flat out temp never got over 140. I'm not running a gate valve, I'm running a regulator on the water inlet. I'm running it at the lowest possible pressure.

The bowl is a brand new Dominator HP bowl set up for skirted Impellers. I'm running an AA Dominator skirted Impeller. For those that are reading and don't know what this is, the impeller has an extended 'skirt' that fits into an area in the bowl where the stuffer would be. It fits into the stuffer area, similar to how it fits inside the wear ring.

I have been running a loader for years. Its a pretty standard full ramp, open center type of loader. No shoe, no rideplate.

I'm 100% sure that the butterflies on both primary and secondary open 100%
  • Like
    Dislike
    Love
    HaHa
    Angry
    Surprise
    Sad
    Party

rush1

  • Karma: +18/-0
Re: New build disappointment
« Reply #29 on: May 21, 2014, 09:04:25 PM »
That's really not that big of a cam for 521 cubic inches

Sent from my SCH-I545 using SoCal Jet Boats mobile app

  • Like
    Dislike
    Love
    HaHa
    Angry
    Surprise
    Sad
    Party

H8Monday

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: New build disappointment
« Reply #30 on: May 21, 2014, 09:06:00 PM »
While I agree Ralph, I was simply stating that I really don't think the "logs" are the problem...  ;)


I am thinking you are experiencing a reversion issue on a very small level, any way you can reduce the amount of water going through the risers on the VERY short term?

Also, are you running a flame arrestor or an air filter? How large is it. May help explain your jetting moving target.

GT

shutting down the water isn't really possible for me right now. I removed my old gate valve and replaced it with a regulator setup

I was doing the tuning today with no rear seat, no hatch and open carb. No flame arrestor or air filter.  Normally I run a 12"dia by 2" air filter
  • Like
    Dislike
    Love
    HaHa
    Angry
    Surprise
    Sad
    Party

icecreaman

  • Karma: +23/-0
Re: New build disappointment
« Reply #31 on: May 21, 2014, 09:13:27 PM »
I agree with the others that you may have too much impeller.  I'd put the A in there and lean out the primary side of the carb a bit.  I wouldn't give up on the logs either.  They may be robbing some power, but as Ralph and GT told you they're not your problem.  There's been plenty of guy's that make them work with blowers and turbos.  If they take 20-30 hp away, you should still be in the 500 hp range. Just my thoughts.
  • Like
    Dislike
    Love
    HaHa
    Angry
    Surprise
    Sad
    Party

H8Monday

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: New build disappointment
« Reply #32 on: May 21, 2014, 09:23:41 PM »
You are trying to tune at 4100 feet if you going to be at less than 400?

GT

The engine went in the boat yesterday. It was supposed to go in 2 weeks ago, but you know how some shops can be with deadlines. I'm headed to havasu for the weekend. I spent the day trying to find some expected performance out of this engine. I was trying to make sure nothing was 'wrong' with it, because I AM going to Havasu this weekend. Since I'm going to be near sea level, I decided to leave it plenty fat today.

My quest for getting the max performance out of this engine will have to be postponed until after the holiday. Right now the numbers just don't make me happy at all. The Berkeley chart says I'm making 368 hp. I'm not buying the 'its the logs' answers. Like some have said, I think the cam choice is a little suspect. I may have to get some suggestions from the peanut gallery on this subject.

Holley and other carb calculators say that a 521 turning 6000 rpm needs just over 800 cfm carb

Weiand says the stealth is good to 6800 RPM. LOTS of people are using them on big fords to make over 600 hp

I'm running an AA impeller at the recommendation of one of the advertisers here that I used to select all my pump parts from. I explained my engine combo and my hull, and he said AA impeller and Dom bowl.

I have no problem experimenting with impellers now. Its cheap, and relatively easy.
  • Like
    Dislike
    Love
    HaHa
    Angry
    Surprise
    Sad
    Party

H8Monday

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: New build disappointment
« Reply #33 on: May 21, 2014, 09:28:07 PM »
One quick question I have it about the impeller style.

My A impeller is a stock Berkeley non-skirted style impeller. Will it simply bolt into Dominator bowl and just lose the slight stuffer effect that the skirt gives?
  • Like
    Dislike
    Love
    HaHa
    Angry
    Surprise
    Sad
    Party

GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: New build disappointment
« Reply #34 on: May 21, 2014, 09:30:48 PM »
shutting down the water isn't really possible for me right now. I removed my old gate valve and replaced it with a regulator setup

I was doing the tuning today with no rear seat, no hatch and open carb. No flame arrestor or air filter.  Normally I run a 12"dia by 2" air filter

I was thinking more along the lines of bypassing some water from the snails to a dump.
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
  • Like
    Dislike
    Love
    HaHa
    Angry
    Surprise
    Sad
    Party
If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

icecreaman

  • Karma: +23/-0
Re: New build disappointment
« Reply #35 on: May 21, 2014, 09:31:08 PM »
Are you going to try and change the impeller before Havasu?  That would be the best move because worst case scenario is your RPM's are a little high at WOT.  Plus it would give a good baseline since you'll be close to sea level.
  • Like
    Dislike
    Love
    HaHa
    Angry
    Surprise
    Sad
    Party

GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: New build disappointment
« Reply #36 on: May 21, 2014, 09:33:04 PM »
One quick question I have it about the impeller style.

My A impeller is a stock Berkeley non-skirted style impeller. Will it simply bolt into Dominator bowl and just lose the slight stuffer effect that the skirt gives?


Yes, and no...

Lets think about it this way, at as low of RPM you are getting now, the lack of stuffer effect will actually do you a bit of good.

GT
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
  • Like
    Dislike
    Love
    HaHa
    Angry
    Surprise
    Sad
    Party
If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

icecreaman

  • Karma: +23/-0
Re: New build disappointment
« Reply #37 on: May 21, 2014, 09:34:40 PM »
One quick question I have it about the impeller style.

My A impeller is a stock Berkeley non-skirted style impeller. Will it simply bolt into Dominator bowl and just lose the slight stuffer effect that the skirt gives?

You'd need the right wear ring for the A impeller. Then just set the clearance.
  • Like
    Dislike
    Love
    HaHa
    Angry
    Surprise
    Sad
    Party

H8Monday

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: New build disappointment
« Reply #38 on: May 21, 2014, 09:36:33 PM »


Lets think about it this way, at as low of RPM you are getting now, the lack of stuffer effect will actually do you a bit of good.

GT

Thats what I was thinking also. I was just curious about the fit. I was under the impression that I can run a Berkeley Impeller in this bowl with now clearance issues. I was just curious if anyone knew anything otherwise.
  • Like
    Dislike
    Love
    HaHa
    Angry
    Surprise
    Sad
    Party

ps 15

  • Karma: +3/-0
Re: New build disappointment
« Reply #39 on: May 21, 2014, 09:42:21 PM »
Logs are costing you about 300 rpm .had close to the same combo in a ultra open bow  change impeller and see what happens should get you close to where you want


Sent from the bar
using SoCalJetBoats
  • Boat #1: 1993 21 Daytona
  • Like
    Dislike
    Love
    HaHa
    Angry
    Surprise
    Sad
    Party
Where's the river

GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: New build disappointment
« Reply #40 on: May 21, 2014, 09:46:31 PM »
Also too, you can't use the Berkeley impeller chart with a Dominator impeller... It will be quite off..
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
  • Like
    Dislike
    Love
    HaHa
    Angry
    Surprise
    Sad
    Party
If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: New build disappointment
« Reply #41 on: May 21, 2014, 09:49:24 PM »
Your "corrected" HP should be closer to 490 HP.  ;)

GT
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
  • Like
    Dislike
    Love
    HaHa
    Angry
    Surprise
    Sad
    Party
If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

mash on it

  • Karma: +29/-0
Re: New build disappointment
« Reply #42 on: May 21, 2014, 10:02:02 PM »
"Cam: In 345 Exh 359 at cam  duration Int 228 Exh 238 max lift at intake occurs at 109 degrees ATDC and at exhaust 119 degrees BTDC - Hydraulic roller"

The duration is a lot "small" for an SBC, let alone a 521 BBF. (My 383 is 235*/235*)

You need 240*/250* easy to feed that 521.

I'm at 238*/246*, hyd. roller cam, in a 461 BBC, 750 Holley 3310, swings a "AA" American Turbine in a Berk JC at 4900-5K, 21' Eliminator Day Cruiser...Logs and snails

My $.02

Dan'l
  • Like
    Dislike
    Love
    HaHa
    Angry
    Surprise
    Sad
    Party
CJ/RR 212...under construction  "Pistol Annie"

Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: New build disappointment
« Reply #43 on: May 22, 2014, 01:11:16 AM »
One quick question I have it about the impeller style.

My A impeller is a stock Berkeley non-skirted style impeller. Will it simply bolt into Dominator bowl and just lose the slight stuffer effect that the skirt gives?

If the impellers themselves haven't been modified to adjust front clearance and the diameters of the wear ring surface are the same, they will directly interchange.  Make sure that any shims are retained and used with each impeller as currently installed so front clearance remains the same.

Without a stuffer, it just won't build bowl pressure quite as fast.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using SoCal JetBoats mobile app

  • Like
    Dislike
    Love
    HaHa
    Angry
    Surprise
    Sad
    Party
"I want to roll with my brother Joe" - Joe Bateman - January 29, 1950 ~ November 27, 2013

SS-201

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New build disappointment
« Reply #44 on: May 22, 2014, 01:34:32 AM »
Althouogh the manifolds do take some HP but thats not all your problem, my opinion,


Sent from my GT-P5113 using SoCal Jet Boats mobile app

  • Like
    Dislike
    Love
    HaHa
    Angry
    Surprise
    Sad
    Party

SS-201

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New build disappointment
« Reply #45 on: May 22, 2014, 01:40:11 AM »
And don't start throwing good parts and wasting good hard money, there are smart people here someone will help. Again don't throw parts away .

Sent from my GT-P5113 using SoCal Jet Boats mobile app

  • Like
    Dislike
    Love
    HaHa
    Angry
    Surprise
    Sad
    Party

rush1

  • Karma: +18/-0
Re: New build disappointment
« Reply #46 on: May 22, 2014, 06:37:48 AM »
I agree a lot of it is the cam is to small the impeller is wrong and the logs are killing about 300 rpms all together and you get what you got. You'll work it out it will just take a little time.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using SoCal Jet Boats mobile app

  • Like
    Dislike
    Love
    HaHa
    Angry
    Surprise
    Sad
    Party

LakesOnly

  • Karma: +15/-0
Re: New build disappointment
« Reply #47 on: May 22, 2014, 10:39:46 AM »
I'm hugely disappointed in the performance. Maybe a few of you experts here can look at the details and tell me where I went wrong with my recipe for big power and better than stock speed.

Engine: 521 Ford - Eagle rotation assy 4.3 Steel crank Mahle pistons 38cc dish final CR approx 9.75:1
Heads :D0VE C , mild port work.
Cam: In 345 Exh 359 at cam  duration Int 228 Exh 238 max lift at intake occurs at 109 degrees ATDC and at exhaust 119 degrees BTDC - Hydraulic roller
Comp gold roller rockers 1.7 ratio
Intake: Stealth
Carb: Holley 850 HP Ultra jetted at 84 square.  4.5 power valves front and rear.
Fuel system: Holley blue pump and regulator 6psi
Dist: Summit billet mechanical.  Timing is set to 36 degrees all in at 3400
Exhaust: Harman Marine Long bolt logs.

Drive: Berkeley 12JG
Bowl: Dominator HD
Impeller: Dominator skirted AA cut
Place diverter

Boat: 21' Eliminator Sport Cruiser. No interior. 20 gallons of fuel. 2 people.

Performance:  4500 RPM  and 58 mph  @ 4100 feet altitude here.

According to the Berkely chart I'm making a whopping 325 HP. Sweet.  I could have done that with a stock 460 and saved THOUSANDS.

Help? Advice? Suggestions?

Regards,   -Todd-
I'm seeing a major engine components/overall powerplant mismatch here, and on several levels (actual parts chosen, specific part type chosen, and I suspect part setup when installed). Looking at what you are working with, your unfortunate real world results seem about right to me relative to the overall combinaton.

You need to be willing to make some substantial component changes in order to see a dramatic improvement, including induction, exhaust, camshaft, I suspect cylinder head port work, and I bet valve train geometry (which significantly affects cam timing).

LO
  • Like
    Dislike
    Love
    HaHa
    Angry
    Surprise
    Sad
    Party

We're on the web; click below:
High Flow Dynamics

H8Monday

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: New build disappointment
« Reply #48 on: May 22, 2014, 01:06:12 PM »
I'm seeing a major engine components/overall powerplant mismatch here, and on several levels (actual parts chosen, specific part type chosen, and I suspect part setup when installed). Looking at what you are working with, your unfortunate real world results seem about right to me relative to the overall combinaton.

You need to be willing to make some substantial component changes in order to see a dramatic improvement, including induction, exhaust, camshaft, I suspect cylinder head port work, and I bet valve train geometry (which significantly affects cam timing).

LO

LO give me your opinion on where to start then. If you're seeing something in my parts list that seems off I'm all ears.

I'll take a minute to explain the parts chosen, then I'd love for people to chime in and make me aware of the error of my selections, and their suggestions towards better parts.


Here we go.

The mission: Make the boat faster. (Isn't that what we all want?)  ;)

Limitations: Full engine enclosure with a flat sundeck for the hunnies. So, no headers. Lightnings MIGHT fit, but man... the cost. Also, it has to be reliable. I want to get 5-8 seasons of use out of it before rebuild.

Engine Design: Jet boat performance is a result of torque. So, lets make lots of torque at lowish RPMS.

How to make Torque: First.... make it big.  I went with the 521 because a 4.3" crank was a large as I was comfortable with for longevity. Same with the .030 overbore.
Next, a dual plane intake is known for its low-ish RPM torque building. I was already running the Stealth, so run it, and save a few $$.
Carby selection says that you go Huge for big RPM and big horsepower, and you go smallish for low RPM response and again, torque. I chose the 850 as it falls right in the middle of those 2 requirements.
I was also already running the D0VE C heads. There are thousands of builds out there making serious power with these heads. So, some mild port cleanup and a few more $$ saved instead of SCJ heads.
Cam selection. This is where I turned to my engine builder for his advice. He suggested this cam, as it was designed for strong midrange torque.
exhaust we covered, I understand these logs don't provide great scavenging like a well designed header, but they are a necessary evil.

I could have built a maximum effort, high horsepower, high RPM fire breathing monster, but it would have REQUIRED headers, SCJ heads, bigger cam, single plane manifold, and bigger carb. I tried to choose parts that would build a stump puller instead. Couple that with an AA impeller and the intended result was to get good performance at lower than typical RPM's.

So, I need help from the peanut gallery to help adjust my recipe. Something is clearly off. And now that you know my intent, I'm all ears as to how to get this boat to move faster. After all.... it was a 63 MPH boat with a 460, same intake, heads, 750DP and an aggressor 9 vane bowl with aggressor A impeller.

Lets hear those thoughts and ideas.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 01:10:00 PM by H8Monday »
  • Like
    Dislike
    Love
    HaHa
    Angry
    Surprise
    Sad
    Party

GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: New build disappointment
« Reply #49 on: May 22, 2014, 03:42:13 PM »


Engine Design: Jet boat performance is a result of torque. So, lets make lots of torque at lowish RPMS.

How to make Torque: First.... make it big.  I went with the 521 because a 4.3" crank was a large as I was comfortable with for longevity. Same with the .030 overbore.
Next, a dual plane intake is known for its low-ish RPM torque building. I was already running the Stealth, so run it, and save a few $$.
Carby selection says that you go Huge for big RPM and big horsepower, and you go smallish for low RPM response and again, torque. I chose the 850 as it falls right in the middle of those 2 requirements.
I was also already running the D0VE C heads. There are thousands of builds out there making serious power with these heads. So, some mild port cleanup and a few more $$ saved instead of SCJ heads.
Cam selection. This is where I turned to my engine builder for his advice. He suggested this cam, as it was designed for strong midrange torque.
exhaust we covered, I understand these logs don't provide great scavenging like a well designed header, but they are a necessary evil.

I could have built a maximum effort, high horsepower, high RPM fire breathing monster, but it would have REQUIRED headers, SCJ heads, bigger cam, single plane manifold, and bigger carb. I tried to choose parts that would build a stump puller instead. Couple that with an AA impeller and the intended result was to get good performance at lower than typical RPM's.

So, I need help from the peanut gallery to help adjust my recipe. Something is clearly off. And now that you know my intent, I'm all ears as to how to get this boat to move faster. After all.... it was a 63 MPH boat with a 460, same intake, heads, 750DP and an aggressor 9 vane bowl with aggressor A impeller.

Lets hear those thoughts and ideas.

Sent from my SGH-T989 using SoCal Jet Boats mobile app

I am not LO, but everything in the above is correct but wrong.

Whoever told you you needed bottom end torque is fired.

A Jetboat cannot do anything with bottom end torque.

A jet pump takes almost ZERO torque to turn up to about 3500 rpm. After that the torque curve is LINEAR. Meaning the faster it turns the more toque is required.

That being said, you built a killer pull truck motor. That is what I was eluding to when I mentioned the cam shaft choice.

To make a jet run like it is scared, you need to make the torque way up high in the rpm range (like from 3500 and up) Everything you have in this build with the exception of the intake manifold reeks bottom end balls.

If I were in your situation I would first change the camshaft. This will net the biggest gains for the least about of money and work.

Do not worry about the exhaust for now, it will survive with what you have.

You really should consider a larger carburetor when you upgrade the cam.. I am actually thinking a Dominator is not out of the question but a really well prepped 850 double pumper will bring some fun to the show. Look into changing the venturis for improved velocity in the boosters.

The ignition system is fine, the rocker ratio is hurting you.

I have to go back to work now but just wanted to keep the conversation going.


GT
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
  • Like
    Dislike
    Love
    HaHa
    Angry
    Surprise
    Sad
    Party
If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

 


Null

SMFPacks CMS 1.0.3 © 2026