SoCal Jet Boats
Tech Talk => Engine Mechanical / Electrical => Topic started by: SuperDuty on April 07, 2010, 10:52:25 PM
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Ok guys, I finally said "enough" with throwing my money at my stock 2 bolt 454 outta a pickup that "ran" before I picked it up.. I got what I think is a pretty good deal today, but it does have some major down sides. I picked up a 468 4 bolt with a steel crank, steel pistons, big cam, 990 heads that have been ported (huge) with all new valve/springs, polished tunnel ram with 2 750 DPs, polished scoop, chrome oil pan, alum fabricated valve covers (cool raw looking kind that got polished) and some other misc parts. The downside.. 3 pistons have beat up tops. The valves were replaced after the damage and the cyclinder walls LOOK ok, but theres really no tellin just quite yet. Im hoping I didnt get too screwed on this deal in the long run. I think when it comes down to it, I could part everything out and make my money back if I had to. Either that or find a new 4 bolt and punch it 60 over and use the internals out of the one I bought. What do you guys think? Ill post pictures of the damage and some parts tomorrow to give you a better idea of what Im saying here. But for $1500 I figured I cant go wrong!
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sounds to me like just the bolt on stuff, IE oil pan, intake manifold, carbs, etc was worth the money, not to mention those heads. Id just see if you can find out who made the pistons and replace the bad ones and while ur at it, yank everything, check the bores, hone em out, give it a ring and bearing job, and you should be fine. Sounds to me like itdd be a bad ass motor. the 4 bolt main, and forged crank are a VERY good starting platform, lol im running a 2 bolt main truck motor, and its an angry lil sucker hehe.
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sounds to me like just the bolt on stuff, IE oil pan, intake manifold, carbs, etc was worth the money, not to mention those heads. Id just see if you can find out who made the pistons and replace the bad ones and while ur at it, yank everything, check the bores, hone em out, give it a ring and bearing job, and you should be fine. Sounds to me like itdd be a bad ass motor. the 4 bolt main, and forged crank are a VERY good starting platform, lol im running a 2 bolt main truck motor, and its an angry lil sucker hehe.
x2. never heard of steel pistons, did you ,mean cast? Either way I would go with forged pistons. I had clay smith build up my 990's race ported and machined for a 700+ roller cam, all ti valves, springs, retainers, ect, oh and and surfaced, they also painted the area under the valve covers for a smoother finish and that ran me about $2000. Lol I ended up getting a deal on better heads that made about 150 hp more so my 990s are sitting in the garage for now.
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i could use some new heads. lol
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your 990 heads are good heads. I think you can run roller cams up in the 500-600 lift range 600 being max. my last motor was in the high 500 to 600 hp with those heads but with a solid roller 707 lift cam and 12-1 compression and efi. I would have a good shop peek at them first. make sure you match your valve springs to the cam.
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Im deff. going to have someone who knows what they're doing look at the cylinders. The guy told me steel pistons, Im sure he meant forged. All I really have to go by is what he told me the motor has. I took a few pictures with my cell phone to give you a better idea. Ill get the real camera out to take some pics of the heads, I think thats where I made out ok on the deal.
The picture he sent me. (no idea why he took it sideways...)
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi263.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fii136%2Fcoltschlumbohm%2FBBC.jpg&hash=0233299ddbec5453f8bf07eee14049c1d6aedc8a)
Couple water related things he threw in..
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi263.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fii136%2Fcoltschlumbohm%2Fwater.jpg&hash=f5896e056b7f5caf08a2a5496a0e9da7fb74865a)
Valve covers.
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi263.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fii136%2Fcoltschlumbohm%2Fvalvecovers.jpg&hash=0edc85cf241a58f1f1fd2c98f0147f94d8e558f2)
Motor plates and alum. fly wheel.
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi263.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fii136%2Fcoltschlumbohm%2Fplates.jpg&hash=c188b222846173fb71d10e407bb27cc7ba7421b7)
Pan and block.
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi263.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fii136%2Fcoltschlumbohm%2Fpan.jpg&hash=06885b1fe0811bb9a58f63dcee57813ddddcb57d)
Box of parts, with 7/16s push rods.
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi263.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fii136%2Fcoltschlumbohm%2Fmiscparts.jpg&hash=7c418712c6f90c7d1babd348dbe1e0705eddb957)
Mag and starter.
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi263.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fii136%2Fcoltschlumbohm%2Fmag.jpg&hash=559d25e442605ad3fc08ca8a6a85f0c239fe11fb)
Intake and 2 750 DPs.
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi263.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fii136%2Fcoltschlumbohm%2FGetAttachment-1.jpg&hash=b1b118f0118f817d8cdae444cb1d55cf83e4c29b)
And now the bad... these are the two bad pistons.
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi263.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fii136%2Fcoltschlumbohm%2Fpiston.jpg&hash=d60a59d0b31f0593a95f55419fcf073d2c9acaee)
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi263.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fii136%2Fcoltschlumbohm%2Fpiston2.jpg&hash=8f60dc4925661d2d0f6b52bb25c3c7bcb56a7be8)
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looks like detonation to me! need better pics of the cylinder walls
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looks like detonation to me! need better pics of the cylinder walls
X2! PM the pics to Enginedoctor, he can tell better. You made out like a horsetheif on that dealio!
Got plans for the manual header valve? I can hear Pickle needing one!
Ray
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Ok, Ill take some better pictures of the pistons and cyclinders here in a few. As far as the header valve, I had one in my basket at rex marine waiting for my next paycheck to order! Perfect timing on that one. Only bummer is I prolly have atleast 600 bucks worth of brand new and used parts I picked up for my old motor.. As soon as thing engine runs for sure, Ill be having a garage sale on BBC parts!
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honestly if the cylinder walls look ok...ive seen many pistons with detonation marks on them, and they are fine...engine doc will enlighten us someday soon, but i think run it! of course pics of every cylinder will be nice, and the pistons
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Well....I tried tostay outa this ,but imho pistons look like they were damaged by foreign matter and not so much a detonation issue.
Looks like cylinders have no cross hatch, could be just old or fuel wash...
Oh hell...just run it see whatya get :sly:
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Heres a few of the pistons with my good camera. The cylinders feel fine with my finger, but I know thats not very accurate!
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi263.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fii136%2Fcoltschlumbohm%2F001.jpg&hash=c12162027a68f606f5b26241d1e012d9bf703c9c)
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi263.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fii136%2Fcoltschlumbohm%2F002.jpg&hash=e4b0c87d124f7e10b92b3103c092e00bddb4b738)
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi263.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fii136%2Fcoltschlumbohm%2F003.jpg&hash=e824bb8a9f6a026027a49844b732c53085adba9d)
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi263.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fii136%2Fcoltschlumbohm%2F004.jpg&hash=d9bb57b9d3fbc4df49d9fb8d0e881be0fe8d0e7f)
And heres a few shots of the heads.. What do ya'll think? I think I did alright on the deal.
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi263.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fii136%2Fcoltschlumbohm%2F009-Copy.jpg&hash=2872ae6c77e50816ab20c67148fdd0e9778fde2c)
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi263.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fii136%2Fcoltschlumbohm%2F010-Copy.jpg&hash=6a0d125002f399f3ac2d56b061a337064ba52586)
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi263.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fii136%2Fcoltschlumbohm%2F008-Copy-1.jpg&hash=b85699b656ced19599ad6a66f5e6903b5738a6fc)
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi263.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fii136%2Fcoltschlumbohm%2F007-Copy.jpg&hash=edd89b6bf0a7916c1ec6faa8565ab6213c4d91aa)
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi263.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fii136%2Fcoltschlumbohm%2F006-Copy.jpg&hash=db80b25ca01fd8b8a067c16ad3ba5e13d3c68e98)
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi263.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fii136%2Fcoltschlumbohm%2F005.jpg&hash=49f892695874aaed118e2b4e1081516a71d7f281)
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Ok, now that motor had a cam driven water pump on it. That says v-drive to me. Find out if the oil pan is jet or v-drive.
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Contamination...period. imo.
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Contamination...period. imo.
I agree. :thumbup: Still some "contamination" in a couple of those pics! Hopefully you get out of it easy with a tear down, careful cleaning/filing and reassembly, but I'd be suspect of WHY it happened!
Ray
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When I picked the motor up there was NOTHING in the cylinders, that was from the ride home in the back of the work truck for 2 hours. Im hoping to be able to just hone and throw new pistons in and call it good. Id guess its from the pistons hitting the valves? I have no idea since the heads were gone thru before I bought it. It was out of a V-Drive but has a jet pan. Makes no sence to me either.. Guy said the pans from a race car style motor? ??? Thats the worst part about buying used problems. :-\ If worst comes to to worst, Ill just have to buy a block and punch it out Id imagine.
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I don't think it's that bad, myself. Yeah, I saw some "fluff" in the ring gap! But honestly? Very solid platform and you got the experts opinion BEFORE you did what we hacks told you to do!
Tear it down, carefully clean everything up. There are a few dings on the pistons "reaching out" for the cylinder walls. Clean, assemble, then clean and reassemble, I personally think you're OK! Nothings broke! Hone, yeah, I would.
I still think you're a horsetheif on this! Good score! Just make SURE it lasts! Get with Dave more on this!
There is a REASON Dave's building the twin jet's engines, trust him! (Hopefully Ralph gets his .02 in on those as well). I'm not much help on BBC engines, save scoring one or two for other members for similar steals you did.
Ray
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Certain contamination in oiling system....Fuel wash as well.
You can see the scoring in cyls. and embedded contaminations,scratches through out the bores.
You need to teardown completely to at least do a thorough cleaning..Your bearings and rings will further tell the story
...Just my 5cents.
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It looks to me like there is more going on that meets the eye, there was a lot of work that went into that motor build.
You definitely made out OK, but IMHO, pull it down completely and start from zero, measure everything and make sure everything is up to the task....
I would totally hate to see a $3 failed part make you have to do it all over again....Lay it on the bench and nit pick the crap out of it...Do it once, do it right, if you find one little issue, it was worth it....
Those are forged, pressed pin pistons and should be able to be repaired, have them removed from the rods and checked thoroughly and clean them up, I have fixed much much worse...Hell you could even have the tops coated and be better than new...
Nice find. :thumbup:
GT
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GT...I totally agree w/you....You see what I See!
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The engine looks to have received internal damage while running and there also appears to be a dinged-up combustion chamber with a newer exhaust valve installed...hmmmm, does that suspect chamber fit over a bore with a damaged piston?
If the pistons measure out okay, then they can be cleaned up/massaged and run again. I would suggest that you completely disassemble and give the engine a full freshening along with the added attention where needed, and you'll be fine.
Many of the parts pictured suggest to me that this engine combo was put together a lo-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-ong-ass time ago. By the way, those Crane roller rockers are AT LEAST 25 years old and depending on your use and application of the engine you might want to replace them. Nice Joe Hunt mag.
LO
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You might want to take a good look at the retainers I cant tell for sure but I would say that the spring is to big for the retainer or the retainer was forced into the spring, I don't like any spring past the retainer sticking out, It will cause spring walk and wear. check the spring for pressure and wear and have good new locks in staled.
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You might want to take a good look at the retainers I cant tell for sure but I would say that the spring is to big for the retainer or the retainer was forced into the spring, I don't like any spring past the retainer sticking out, It will cause spring walk and wear. check the spring for pressure and wear and have good new locks in staled.
I can't tell from the pictures either, but good catch...
Also, did anyone notice these?
Red arrow looks like a bronze guide...
Yellow arrow looks like a crack, could both be a funny picture... :-\
[attachimg=#]
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You might want to take a good look at the retainers I cant tell for sure but I would say that the spring is to big for the retainer or the retainer was forced into the spring, I don't like any spring past the retainer sticking out, It will cause spring walk and wear. check the spring for pressure and wear and have good new locks in staled.
Agree w/that and lakes too :thumbup:
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This whole thing looks like valve train issues and then some...T/D & INSPECT :thumbup:
They look like cast guides to me w/lots of paint and maybe tight v/g clear. just INSPECT upon t/down :sly:
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Ok.. Its official.. Im going to have a pro go thru this thing. Way over my head! And Id like it done right the first time. I really appreciate all the help and suggestions guys!
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SD -- I have a buddy who runs from Ahwahnee to SLO every other weekend. He used to work with Tom of JetBoat Performance. If you wann throw all that stuff in the back of his truck I'm sure he would transport it for beer. Lemmme know.
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u made out really well on the deal, lol especially sinceit came with a mag. have everything gone over, checked and build her back up slowly and carefully and you should have a force to be reckoned with.
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I would take your heads to clay smith racing. They did a awesome job on my 990s. They can even machine the spring cups for bigger springs so you can run a 700+ lift solid roller cam. Its cost me $1400 but they trashed every part and used high quality race parts. also included race porting surfacing and epoxy painted the tops for better oil flow. there custom push rod guides and studs are insanely strong
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Ok. Thanks for the info guys! Ill let you know as soon as I get some extra money to throw into this thing what the plan will be. For now I gotta finish the sub floor in the boat and rebuild my interior!