Post by: 78Southwind on February 11, 2016, 06:28:48 PM
I got this in the mail a couple days ago. I am going to add a 175 HP shot.
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78Southwind
What's the best way per cubic dollar to retard the timing? I currently have a 6M-2 box. I have been looking at the Programmable Timing Computer since it's a good price but it looks like you have to lock out your distributor. I really don't want to lock out the timing. So now I am leaning towards the Digital Retard Control or a 6 plus. Any other ideas?
Also, I want to use my claysmith fuel pump (14 to 16 psi) to fuel both the main fuel system and the nitrous fuel system. I am looking at running two fuel regulators and dead head them at 6/7 psi. I also want to run a fuel safety switch on the nitrous fuel system. For the electrical, I am going to run a toggle switch to arm the nitrous system then a microswitch set for full throttle and a nitrous push button. Yada Yada... So does this sound good?
capogniracing
Just went/going through the same thing. I was thinking of a msd-6425 ignition and a msd- 8970 retard. A magnafuel 500 pump running both regulators. And I'm still gonna have locked out timing and a crank trigger. I would love to go with the Msd 6520 and think this is the best dollar for dollar but I need to be able to retard atleast 11 degrees and the 6520 only is capable to retard 9.9 which would work great for your set up. And maybe run a seperate fuel pump for nitrous to avoid a possible lean out. That's my 2 cents.
78Southwind
Ok, so you have to lock out your timing on the msd- 8970 retard box too. If I am running a fuel safety switch to the solenoids (say set 6 psi) should I really have to worry about a lean condition?
capogniracing
Andy gave me a full lock out dizzy and with a safety switch I would think your good to go. Those clay smith are around 140gph right??
jyeager
6 lbs is good for the safety switch. Start with retarding 2 degrees for every 50 hp shot of nitrous. That will give you a good base line for tuning. 👍👍👍👍
I don't like using the same fuel pump for both nitrous and motor but that's me. I use a Holley blue for the nitrous side and now a aeromotive with a bypass for the motor side.
78Southwind
I can see using a separate fuel system for racing but it just doesn't make sense to me for play. If you're running a safety switch then the nitrous won't fire unless you've got good fuel pressure. Maybe I will do some more homework and see what I find. I plan on running 78/78 fuel and nitrous jets with a 6°-8° retard. I am thinking about running one of my gunnel tanks with a mixture of 91/110 and just switch to that tank when I want to run a nitrous pass. Edelbrock says to use 92 octane pump gasoline or better with 175 HP shot.
jimpen
That jetting would be real fat.
78southwind
That's what came with the kit and what Edelbrock suggests.>>?
Flusher
What about when the fuel pressure drops as the demand increases after the N2O fires?
jyeager
I agree. i used the normal squared jetting 2 passes and dumped down the fuel side because it was so fat. It killed my plugs The recomended jetting from Edelbrock and NOS is a fat tune up for sure. Also spark plug gap plays a good role in the tune.
:thumbup: :thumbup:78Southwind
Interesting thanks...
Post by: 78Southwind on February 11, 2016, 08:03:40 PM
468 Chevy Mark IV, 4 bolt block, forged steel crank, 7/16-inch rod bolts, forged pistons, Cam Kit XM278H-12, hydraulic lifter,
Edelbrock Marine Cylinder Heads 61459, ARP Head Bolt Kit, RPM Air Gap intake, Holley 830, 9.6:1 Compression.
Probably making somewhere around 470 HP @ 4,800 RMP's. Detailed A/B MPD impeller.
I am thinking that if I stay at a 200 HP shot or under this engine should handle the power. What do you guys think?
So I am still in the process of buying parts. I just recently picked up a Victor Jr. intake which will allow a bigger shot of nitrous than my Air Gap. I also picked up a Holley 950 HP XP. I am not sure if the 950 will be too big for my current set-up but my engine can always grow into it. ;)
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Post by: 78Southwind on February 11, 2016, 08:40:34 PM
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Post by: 78Southwind on February 12, 2016, 12:00:53 AM
I have seen others recommend to use a Holley Blue for the nitrous side. But I just can't get the image out of my head of Paul Kane throwing his second failed Holley Blue about three hundred feet in the parking lot of the AVI during the Classic Boat Beach Bash out of my mind.
Once I decide what I am going to do fuel pump wise I can come up with a plan for plumbing. I also need to buy a Edelbrock/Glycerin-filled mechanical nitrous system pressure gauge, Edelbrock / Momentary contact push button and Edelbrock PSI nitrous fuel pressure safety switch.
Post by: steves86ta on February 12, 2016, 08:07:24 AM
I'd run either the safety switch, or a second pump. Lets face it, you wont spray EVERY time the boats out, and when you do, i cant imagine itll be an all day deal. I think you should be fine.
Is it the preferred setup? No. But will it work? I believe it will.
I run one single magnafuel 275 for both
Post by: 78Southwind on February 13, 2016, 12:04:46 PM
My two cents, and its worth about that...
I'd run either the safety switch, or a second pump. Lets face it, you wont spray EVERY time the boats out, and when you do, i cant imagine itll be an all day deal. I think you should be fine.
Is it the preferred setup? No. But will it work? I believe it will.
I run one single magnafuel 275 for both
Yes, I thought the use of a safety switch would prevent a lean condition caused by a drop in fuel pressure. But Flusher had a comment that has been making me think this out a little more. He asked what about when the fuel pressure drops as the demand increases after the N2O fires? I would think that with a fuel pressure safety switch if at anytime there's a drop in fuel pressure the nitrous will be shut off. So if there is a drop in fuel pressure say 6 PSI to 5 PSI and it takes a fraction of a second for the chain of events to happen (shutting off the nitrous) will this cause engine damage? Am I missing something here?
I know Squirtcha? (Dan) on the boards set-up his nitrous system using a Clay Smith Pump feeding two Holley 750's and the nitrous fuel side. I am not sure if he used a safety switch though. I sent him a PM but he doesn't come on the boards much any more.
Post by: steves86ta on February 13, 2016, 12:27:23 PM
Yes, I thought the use of a safety switch would prevent a lean condition caused by a drop in fuel pressure. But Flusher had a comment that has been making me think this out a little more. He asked what about when the fuel pressure drops as the demand increases after the N2O fires? I would think that with a fuel pressure safety switch if at anytime there's a drop in fuel pressure the nitrous will be shut off. So if there is a drop in fuel pressure say 6 PSI to 5 PSI and it takes a fraction of a second for the chain of events to happen (shutting off the nitrous) will this cause engine damage? Am I missing something here?
I know Squirtcha? (Dan) on the boards set-up his nitrous system using a Clay Smith Pump feeding two Holley 750's and the nitrous fuel side. I am not sure if he used a safety switch though. I sent him a PM but he doesn't come on the boards much any more.
Well you should set your nitrous fuel regulator flowing fuel. So yes it'll be a tad rich on the hit but then flowing should be what you need.
My nitrous fuel gauge reads about 9 psi resting but flows 6.5 psi
Post by: 78Southwind on February 13, 2016, 12:52:15 PM
Well you should set your nitrous fuel regulator flowing fuel. So yes it'll be a tad rich on the hit but then flowing should be what you need.
My nitrous fuel gauge reads about 9 psi resting but flows 6.5 psi
Yes, I have read that you should flow it. But that's the kind of stuff that I am talking about that maybe I am missing.
Post by: steves86ta on February 13, 2016, 01:41:27 PM
Post by: 78Southwind on February 13, 2016, 05:16:39 PM
Yeah I'd you flow it. I would not worry about your pump
Ok, so what I have read is that nitrous side fuel pressure will creep up due to line pressure until the fuel solenoid opens and then the pressure drops significantly. So is your gauge reading 9 PSI the entire time or just before the fuel solenoid opens? So the discrepancy between the gauge 9 PSI and flow gauge 6.5 PSI is due to both line pressure and jet size?
So error on the fat side by setting the flowed nitrous side fuel pressure at 6.5 PSI and set fuel pressure safety switch at 6 PSI. So imagine you need to flow the fuel pressure safety switch as well?
Post by: steves86ta on February 13, 2016, 05:26:02 PM
Ok, so what I have read is that nitrous side fuel pressure will creep up due to line pressure until the fuel solenoid opens and then the pressure drops significantly. So is your gauge reading 9 PSI the entire time or just before the fuel solenoid opens? So the discrepancy between the gauge 9 PSI and flow gauge 6.5 PSI is due to both line pressure and jet size?
So error on the fat side by setting the flowed nitrous side fuel pressure at 6.5 PSI and set fuel pressure safety switch at 6 PSI. So imagine you need to flow the fuel pressure safety switch as well?
Yes sir you assume correctly
My fuel side will read 9 psi or so, until the noids open. Then it drop down to the 6.5 rang (I assume I'm driving lol)
I'll be honest with you. I don't run a safety switch. But I like to live dangerously lol
If you can run your boat at WOT and have someone watch the fuel psi gauge on the solenoid, and see what it says while it's open (activated) without the nitrous it can be a workaround for no flow gauge
I hope that makes sense.
As always. Start with the smaller shot you can, back 2 degrees out for every 50 hp then work your way up from there.
Post by: 78Southwind on February 13, 2016, 05:59:57 PM
https://youtu.be/bhTairAK_cM
Post by: steves86ta on February 13, 2016, 06:30:17 PM
Nice little video on flowing fuel pressure on the nitrous fuel system.
https://youtu.be/bhTairAK_cM
yup thats exactly how it works.
Post by: 78Southwind on February 13, 2016, 08:07:03 PM
Post by: steves86ta on February 13, 2016, 08:09:04 PM
Since it seems like it is a lot easier to flow the nitrous fuel pressure system with an electric fuel pump, can I use a similar 140 GPH electric pump instead of using my mechanical 140 GPH? I just want to use the electric for testing.
Ehhhh idk if that would be right. Every pump is different hence why we need to flow them
I really don't know
Post by: Onthenos on February 14, 2016, 07:29:17 PM
Post by: Onthenos on February 14, 2016, 07:30:14 PM
Post by: 78Southwind on February 18, 2016, 07:21:20 PM
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Post by: jimpen on February 18, 2016, 07:57:10 PM
So Clay Smith got back to me and said that the mechanical pump will handle the fuel demand. Now, I just need to find out a safe way to flow the pump and wait for more parts. I was thinking about plumbing the fuel system similar to this. However, I like the look of the brackets that come off of the manifold to hold the fuel regulators.if your pump will feed it that will work.
(Attachment Link)
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Post by: 78Southwind on February 19, 2016, 01:39:39 PM
O0
Post by: Flusher on February 19, 2016, 02:34:48 PM
Remember that pressure is the result of resistance to flow. Once the flow increases, the pressure drops.
Post by: 78Southwind on February 19, 2016, 02:50:47 PM
You are not flowing the N2O system. You are flowing the fuel system to verify that there is enough volume produced by the pump to maintain sufficient pressure in the system.
Remember that pressure is the result of resistance to flow. Once the flow increases, the pressure drops.
Post by: Flusher on February 19, 2016, 02:55:49 PM
It stated using a specific size jet for flowing a fogger and another for a plate. That jet is to restrict the flow to simulate the demand of the N2O system so that you are measuring FLOWING pressure as opposed to STATIC pressure (which will be higher).
Post by: Flusher on February 19, 2016, 02:56:53 PM
I am not sure if I wasn't clear in my previous post but that is what I am saying. The tech said there was no need to flow it when using their kit. Maybe that's why they recommend squared jets.
I believe he saying that there is no need to flow the Edelbrock system
Post by: Flusher on February 19, 2016, 02:57:57 PM
Post by: 78Southwind on February 19, 2016, 02:59:02 PM
Post by: 78Southwind on February 19, 2016, 03:01:20 PM
But that is down stream of the pump and regulatorsI see what your saying.
Post by: 78Southwind on February 19, 2016, 03:06:03 PM
Post by: Flusher on February 19, 2016, 03:18:54 PM
Yeah, I get that. That's why I posted the video. Wouldn't pressure increase as RPM increases on a mechanical pump allowing flow to increase too?
Demand increases too
Post by: 78Southwind on February 19, 2016, 03:39:33 PM
Post by: capogniracing on February 19, 2016, 05:52:05 PM
So I called Edelbrock back and now their telling me that I need to flow it. However, I need to flow the jet and the plate. Thanks for the info guys. The Tech was actually upset that the previous Tech told me the wrong info. He also said that he would go with a dedicated pump for the Nitrous. He said in a prefect world the mechanical pump should work but why chance it.either way you do it I have a flow gauge you can borrow to set it, If I remember right you live fairly close to me
Gimme that BECKY!
Post by: 78Southwind on February 19, 2016, 06:26:59 PM
either way you do it I have a flow gauge you can borrow to set it, If I remember right you live fairly close to me
Gimme that BECKY!
Thanks Dennis I appreciate it. Yeah, I am not far from you.
Post by: jimpen on February 19, 2016, 07:47:57 PM
So I called Edelbrock back and now they're telling me that I need to flow it. However, I need to flow the jet and the plate together. Thanks for the info guys. The Tech was actually upset that the previous Tech told me the wrong info. He also said that he would go with a dedicated pump for the Nitrous. He said in a prefect world the mechanical pump should work but why chance it.. You need to flow it often to make sure it stays where you need it.
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Post by: 78Southwind on February 20, 2016, 09:25:03 AM
Post by: jimpen on February 20, 2016, 09:34:47 AM
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Post by: 78Southwind on February 20, 2016, 10:01:23 AM
Downs in Corona.
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Thanks, but I need something that is open today. Any other suggestions?
Post by: jyeager on February 20, 2016, 11:35:45 AM
. You need to flow it often to make sure it stays where you need it.At the track I flow every other pass. Sometimes every pass.
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Post by: 78Southwind on February 20, 2016, 01:12:56 PM
Post by: 78Southwind on March 06, 2016, 04:36:03 PM
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Post by: steves86ta on March 06, 2016, 04:45:19 PM
Post by: jyeager on March 06, 2016, 04:47:46 PM
So I am trying to come up with different ideas on how to design the system. Here is an example I like. In this example, can I move the regulator in-line right next to the pump? My buddy thinks this will cause problems.I don't see a problem with that. I ran mine like that for years.
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(Attachment Link)
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Post by: Flusher on March 06, 2016, 07:26:28 PM
The ideal configuration is to mount the regulators forward of carbs, nitrous solenoids, etc. All low-pressure lines from the regulators should only run rearward only without turning forward.
Every fitting, solenoid, and foot of line represents a pressure drop. The flowing pressure at the nozzles will be much lower than at the regulator.
This is further complicated by G-forces, of acceleration, pushing back against the flowing fuel, resulting in even lower pressure under actual operating conditions.
Basic rule of thumb; high-pressure flowing forward, low-pressure flowing rearward.
Post by: jimpen on March 06, 2016, 08:14:35 PM
Not a fan!. I agree with Joe you open yourself up to a host of problems
The ideal configuration is to mount the regulators forward of carbs, nitrous solenoids, etc. All low-pressure lines from the regulators should only run rearward only without turning forward.
Every fitting, solenoid, and foot of line represents a pressure drop. The flowing pressure at the nozzles will be much lower than at the regulator.
This is further complicated by G-forces, of acceleration, pushing back against the flowing fuel, resulting in even lower pressure under actual operating conditions.
Basic rule of thumb; high-pressure flowing forward, low-pressure flowing rearward.
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Post by: 78Southwind on March 06, 2016, 11:21:34 PM
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Post by: Flusher on March 06, 2016, 11:55:11 PM
Now, think about this; "You can't push a chain and you can't pull a liquid (unknown)." With the pump mounted in the rear, it can easily push fuel to any location in the boat.
With typical side tanks in a V-bottom, I would mount the pump to the stringer as close to the transom as possible. Aren't you installing a small fuel tank to feed only your N2O? I would then mount the regulator(s) to the front of the engine, as close to the carbs and solenoids as possible. Try to route fuel lines away from sources of heat.
Post by: aquaholic72 on March 07, 2016, 03:33:33 AM
I strive to mount the fuel pump as much below and behind the tank(s) as possible. In the event of a circle track application, the pickup should be in the right rear corner of the tank with the pump mounted below, behind, and to the right. The goal is to place the pump inlet where the fuel naturally wants to go so that the pump doesn't starve for flow.maybe you will appreciate this joe. Or maybe ill piss people off... back in the day this much thought never went in to this subject.. we just throw the big shot at it and let it eat......iv never melted a nitrous motor down and iv never been as paranoid as everyone seems to be about it. This is old tech that worked back in the day without all the new shit everyone says you need....
Now, think about this; "You can't push a chain and you can't pull a liquid (unknown)." With the pump mounted in the rear, it can easily push fuel to any location in the boat.
With typical side tanks in a V-bottom, I would mount the pump to the stringer as close to the transom as possible. Aren't you installing a small fuel tank to feed only your N2O? I would then mount the regulator(s) to the front of the engine, as close to the carbs and solenoids as possible. Try to route fuel lines away from sources of heat.
Your Friendly local v-drive owner
Post by: Onthenos on March 07, 2016, 07:15:23 AM
Post by: Flusher on March 07, 2016, 12:02:55 PM
maybe you will appreciate this joe. Or maybe ill piss people off... back in the day this much thought never went in to this subject.. we just throw the big shot at it and let it eat......iv never melted a nitrous motor down and iv never been as paranoid as everyone seems to be about it. This is old tech that worked back in the day without all the new shit everyone says you need....
Your Friendly local v-drive owner
This is pump system basics and dates back to the time of the Romans, none of it is new.
My suggestions are based purely on pump systems engineering backed up by data recorded on the pro stock car and various classes of drag boats I have experience with. The data shows that when fuel pressure fluctuates, speed is lost.
The OP has been querying opinions on a safe and reliable N2O system configuration. My impression is that he wants it to work perfectly the first time and every time. Cutting corners can make it difficult to diagnose problems if and when they occur. I gave my opinion which is based on scientific fact.
Carry on,
Joe
P.S. I never get pissed at anything anyone says, unless it is about my orange $.99 life jacket.
Post by: capogniracing on March 07, 2016, 01:43:19 PM
HAHAHAHA!!
P.S. I never get pissed at anything anyone says, unless it is about my orange $.99 life jacket.
Gimme that BECKY!
Post by: jyeager on March 07, 2016, 01:53:16 PM
HAHAHAHA!!Lol!!!
Gimme that BECKY!
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Post by: 78Southwind on March 07, 2016, 04:07:01 PM
I never get pissed at anything anyone says, unless it is about my orange $.99 life jacket.
Best quote of the thread... :thumbup:
It's pretty interesting how everyone kind of has their own idea what works. Hell even the techs at Edelbrock have their own idea what works. The first one said I didn't need to flow the fuel side because Edelbrock dyno's their system with the fuel jets fat to compensate for lower fuel pressure. I even read a hotrod article that said this. From the article, (We spoke with a couple of Holley engineers, and they told us they intentionally set the budget Cheater kits on the rich side out of concern that some enthusiasts using the kit may likely have less than 5 psi of fuel pressure. Low-dynamic fuel pressure (with the nitrous engaged) requires a larger jet to supply a safe volume of fuel.) Then I called a different Edelbrock tech and he said I needed to flow the fuel system not only with a jet but with the plate too. I feel like calling Edelbrock back to see if I get a third opinion. lol
I appreciate all the info that I am getting from everyone but all in all I am just trying to do this right with out doing any harm to the engine. I also want it to look good but not break the bank.
Post by: jimpen on March 07, 2016, 04:29:15 PM
Post by: 78Southwind on March 07, 2016, 05:05:26 PM
Just remember don't cut corners with NOS.
I hear ya, I really wanted to make it simple and use the fuel pump I have but after talking with everyone I felt like I was cutting corners.
Post by: FordLover on March 07, 2016, 07:17:37 PM
Just remember don't cut corners with NOS.
I was thinking dont cut corners with engines in general but ya I am sure the use of nos too.
Post by: jimpen on March 07, 2016, 08:39:30 PM
I was thinking dont cut corners with engines in general but ya I am sure the use of nos too.. I would agree with you. NOS gets a bad rap do to poor setups. Everything is got to be right to successfully run NOS the bigger the shot the more critical it becomes. Most people might not agree with my setup but I'm good with it. I run a complete separate tank when on NOS but every thing goes on the 116 carb and NOS sil. Fat is just as bad as lean on a NOS run talk to the guys that have ran it with big shots and success doing it.
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