SoCal Jet Boats
Tech Talk => Engine Mechanical / Electrical => Topic started by: AQUAHOLIC on June 24, 2008, 10:06:47 AM
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how do you guys break in a cam. i should be doing this this weekend as long as all goes as planned. so i am wondering should i hook up water to my motor and run a dry pump for a while to break in the cam.
or do i fire it up set the timing then take it to the water for a cam run.
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Put it in the water and let it run @ 1800-2000 for about twenty minutes
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Make sure you run some break-in additive! And if you have a ten quart pan use two bottles!
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Make sure you run some break-in additive! And if you have a ten quart pan use two bottles!
X2. I lost my cam on run in and I believe that was b/c the engine builder didn't put the break in additive in. If it is a comp cam, they say to add a bottle at every oil change.
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I'm sure this won't be the end of this thread but the last couple edelbrock cams I've put in came with some red moly lube, that I thought was suposed to be drained out (with oil change) after 30 min run in. Also I thought the idea was to vary the r's between 2000 and 2500 r's, for 25 minutes. I'd pull the drive line and do it in the driveway.
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i was told by the engine builder to us a diesel oil like rotella and just run it for 20 min at about 2k. how does this sound to you guys. he said nothing of a break in additive.
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Break in additive , better safe than sorry! And itis only 10 or 12 bucks a bottle , cheap insurance if you ask me.
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I work behind a parts counter , so I have heard alot of cam breakin horror stories! If you are running triple springs you want to remove the inner spring for the break in duration. Also I advise contacting the cam manufacturer and following any and all of their recamendations! Doing a cam break in in the water is very diffacult I would disconnect the drive line and do it in the driveway.
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i was told by the engine builder to us a diesel oil like rotella and just run it for 20 min at about 2k. how does this sound to you guys. he said nothing of a break in additive.
Thats what my engine builder did and I lost the cam. Comp 280H FYI. The second time around he put the additive in it. (We were the ones who informed him that the additive must be used or it will void the warrenty on the cam.
If you do not mind, who built your engine?
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Not that my opinion means crap, but run the addative (Amsoil, Comp, Crane, Edelbrock,) whatever, but I always use stock springs to break in the cam, then put the correct springs back in once the cam is "cut", vary the rpm with the occasional rev up, this "splashes" oil up in the valley area to lube things up, and run it for twenty to thirty minutes, or in my case until the city police show up,(my neighbor is an A-hole ;D) as soon as the engine shuts down, drain the oil and add more cam break in crap, and refill the crankcase with new oil, readjust the valves and hook the boat up to the motorhome and drive non-stop for 6 hours until your at Shasta lake and go boating ;D
You may want to vary those last few steps....but thats what I do.
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I used a TON of molly lube, primed the oil pump, used Rotella oil and disconnected the driveline. Ran it for 25-30 mins @ 2000 RPM's with a few bursts to 2500-3000. I used the springs that came with the cams, single for 1 and double for second. All went well. I would use the additive next time just because I believe you can't be too careful. My cam builder (Clay Smith) said Rotella was not good enough and recommended a VR-1 50wt (Not for Street Use) oil that he carries.
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i was told by the engine builder to us a diesel oil like rotella and just run it for 20 min at about 2k. how does this sound to you guys. he said nothing of a break in additive.
IMO thats good advice , rotella ,or Delo or "High line" breakin oils like Torco etc (high additive package) ,breakin additive is cheap and wouldn't hurt to add ,disconnect the DL run it on the hose , 20 to 30 motors a year ,lost one cam ever Tom
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Its the zinc that is gone in oil.Vr 1 and sweepco still has zinc and some diesel oil but they are cutting back too.Zinc prevents scuffing on the lobes.Use the comp oil additive at every oil change.I think Joe Gibbs has oil too with zinc.Roller motors dont need zinc and thats what all the new cars have now.Guess it cheaper to produce the oil without it.
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I used 15-40 Delo on mine. At the time I had a Jet-A-Way, but since you don't I highly recommend to disconnect the driveline from the motor and use zip ties to tie it back away from the PTO adapter.
As soon as mine fired up we got it to 2,000 and screwed the idle speed screw in to hold it there. While it was running I got the timing light on it and set the advance dial on it to 36, then revved it until the timing mark on the balancer stopped moving (this should happen somewhere between 2800-3200 if your curve is set up right) and turned the distributor until the mark on the balancer lined up with 0 on the timing tab. After that we let it run for about 25 minutes like that.
35 hours later she's still goin' strong.
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Its the zinc that is gone in oil.Vr 1 and sweepco still has zinc and some diesel oil but they are cutting back too.Zinc prevents scuffing on the lobes.Use the comp oil additive at every oil change.I think Joe Gibbs has oil too with zinc.Roller motors dont need zinc and thats what all the new cars have now.Guess it cheaper to produce the oil without it.
Vami your right ,most all the oils we grew up with have had the "additive pkgs" (zinc, moly etc) removed to get them "competetive' for sales in pep boys CSK etc go for the good high dollar stuff (joe gibbs ,royal purple ,red line etc) you'll never regret it
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I use Brad Penn. It still contains the Zinc content. This is the old Don Garlits Kendall Green oil of years ago. Good stuff. I also use an Engine run in stand I built to break in motors.
http://www.bradpennracing.com/
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tjsperformance.com%2Fimages%2Fbbcbuild17.JPG&hash=632936d7e220026ae0f16e5cb5466e50a24fd26f)
T.J.
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I bet that would leave your ears ringing for a little while ;D
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I bet that would leave your ears ringing for a little while ;D
Yup and someone called the cops too. :banghead:
T.J.
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Yup and someone called the cops too. :banghead:
T.J.
There is an azzhole in every neighborhood (but the ones who call the cops probably say that about us who start our boats)
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i have to pull the motor half way out to get the drive line off.
so i plan on running rotella with additive
disconnecting the drive line and run for 20 mins at 2k to 2500rpm.
set timing while doing cam break in.
change oil and head to the river.
does this sound ok to you guys.
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i have to pull the motor half way out to get the drive line off.
so i plan on running rotella with additive
disconnecting the drive line and run for 20 mins at 2k to 2500rpm.
set timing while doing cam break in.
change oil and head to the river.
does this sound ok to you guys.
Sds good ,this is best done with a "helper" (GF or buddy) to "man" the hose , get out some basic tools (timing lite dizzy wrench ,screw driver etc ,monitor the temp and oil pressure watch for leaks etc use your watch or cell phone to mark time ,don't scrimp on the time factor (20 min drags on) if you have to abort for something start the process over . make sure the fuel tanks are full ,boat is level side to side and bow up slightly NEVER turn the hose on till the engine starts . It does hurt to fire the motor for a few sec's prior to the breakin to make sure it will start and idle prior to. And we always pre fill the block with h2o ahead of time (thru hulls we disconnect the riser hoses to prefill ,headers we pinch or shut off the header water) Good luck! Tom
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hey tony a few of the guys on here have sound advice but some :screwy: disconet it run the water let it run like they said and once every few min you want to bring the rpms up like blurp the throttle when done let it cool all the way down before you start it again just like when you break in the dirt bike let it get all the way cool what weight oil did they tell you to run? you dont want to run to thick unless the motor is loose then your sucking up the clearences with the oil the lighter the better YOU HAVE SEEN HOW HARD MY BOAT RUNS 102 at 6500rpm with" 15-30" none of this 50 60 70 weight crap good luck call me if you need help at the trailer
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You definately want to vary the RPM's like Tofast says. The cam gets oiled from the splash off of the crank, and you don't want to leave a section dry (or lightly oiled) during the break in. You want to run GM EoS in very liberal amounts, and no long cranking. Make sure that thing will start when you turn the key.
If you are running a Chevy, this is especially important. Chevy's tend to eat cams do to thier design anyway, startup proceedure is really important.
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I put mine in the water and just took a slow ride around the no wake zone. Varied speed between 1800 to 2300 or so RPM's.
Never more than 400 yards from the launch so no issue if I had to row.
If it's in the water you can't mess up the pump in any way and no hassle with the drive line.
We put it back on the trailer and changed the oil. went back out for a ride.
We used Rotella oil and Comp cam additive.
Good luck
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The machine shop/engine builder I go to recommends and uses Joe Gibbs Racing oil for break-in. I mix in a quart on every oil change. For "off-road" use only. ;D
http://www.joegibbsracingoil.com/products/br.html
Cheers, Mark
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ok i went to every auto parts store in town. there is no break in additive. so i got rotella 15w30 and i got a 30w non detergent oil that was recomended by the guy at napa who just broke in his boat motor last weekend.
what do you guys suggest i do now. use the rotella or the non detergent oil.
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I suggest you call me and I will ship you a couple of bottles of the comp cams break in additive.
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Aqua,
You guys are in Cali. The hot rod capital of the world. You should be able to find this stuff locally. Now here in CT. it would be close to impossible to find it locally.
T.J.
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I WILL BE BREAKING IN MY CAM SOMETIME NEXT WEEK. AND I WILL BE USING THE SAME TYPE OF OIL I WILL BE RUNNING IN THE BOAT 15W/40 HIGH ZINC CONTENT I HAVE 55 GALLONS HERE SO WHY NOT USE IT. WITH GM BRAKE IN LUBE ADDED TO THE OIL. I'LL LET YOU KNOW HOW IT GOES.
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ya anywhere else in cali it would be easy. but i am up near death valley every specialty part i have ever needed has needed to have been ordered.
so are you guys saying i should wait till i can get some break in oil up here.
like said i have ten quarts of retola 15w30
and i have ten quarts of 30 non detergent oil.
are either of these a suitable substitute. last year i just put some crappy oil in it and fired it up. then changed it after about 20 mins or so.. but then again last year was not a good year for the boat. heince the new motor for this year.
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Its the zinc that is gone in oil...Guess it cheaper to produce the oil without it.
The zinc is being recuced/eliminated because it kills catalytlic converters. Look for engine oils that specify "Racing Oil" and "not intended for street use/for off-highway use only" right on the bottle. Not a garantee but a step in the right direction in regards to good engine oils. Also, racing oils usually have a higher concentration of anti-foaming agent, which is good for our sustained upper rpm engines.
LO
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...so i plan on running rotella with additive
disconnecting the drive line and run for 20 mins at 2k to 2500rpm.
set timing while doing cam break in.
change oil and head to the river.
does this sound ok to you guys.
Unless I missed it, you have not specified in this thread what you have for an engine, cam, and spring pressures. Assuming that you have a mild hydraulic lifter camshaft, I would say that your approach is reasonable, except: start cam break-in at 1500-2000 rpm, not 2000-2500 rpm. Nevermind that your cam tag recomends 2500 rpm, because they would rather you don't scuff your cam even at the risk of engine failure. This far I have always had success breaking in engines at 1500+/- rpm, and once at temperature, giving occasional blips to 2000 rpm. If the cam wipes, it wipes...and you get a new cam. but if you grenade your engine and your cam is fine, there ain't no cam maufactuer on the planet that will fix your engine.
LO
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Ummmmm How is 2500 rpm's going to grenade an engine. I don't get it.
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Personally, esp in a Chevy, get the right stuff, wait if you have to. I personally would make the drive to the local (as it can be) GM dealer and get the EOS.
Your sig says west cov, long way from death valley.
You could look at the truck stop for the high zinc diesel engine oils.
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ya i used to live in west covina. took a job up here at china lake.
so both the oils i bought today will not work is that what i am getting?
as for my motor it is pretty much a stock 454 stock heads and valve train. Aggressive marine cam i dont remember the numbers on that. and solid lifters. air gap intake, msd ignition, demon 800 carb. with hardin marine headers.
if i dont get the boat running this weekend i probably wont make my river trip next weekend.
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ya i used to live in west covina. took a job up here at china lake.
so both the oils i bought today will not work is that what i am getting?
as for my motor it is pretty much a stock 454 stock heads and valve train. Aggressive marine cam i dont remember the numbers on that. and solid lifters. air gap intake, msd ignition, demon 800 carb. with hardin marine headers.
if i dont get the boat running this weekend i probably wont make my river trip next weekend.
What's the open pressure rating on your valve springs? I too run a BBC and with the inner spring installed mine are 400 lbs open. I had my machine shop leave the inner springs out and just install the outer and the damper spring for cam break in. I then used Chevron 15W-40 Delo for my breakin oil. After the motor was broke in I installed the inner springs and 40 hours later I have absolutely no problems.
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i have no idea what my spring pressure is. and i am not going to pull the motor apart to take the springs off. so i will probably just run this rotella stuff i will keep looking for some additive, i just dont want to have another summer like last year..
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The problem is you said an aggressive marine cam. What's aggressive? Who's cam is it?
It matters. A LOT. Esp in a Chevy.
If you are not running a dual spring, you are probably OK.
This is one of the reasons I went roller, just too many worries with old technology running with new (not as good) lubricants. All new engines nowadays are rollers, no zinc required.
BTW - you don't have to tear down the engine to change the springs, you just need an air compresser to keep the valves up while you compress the spring and pull the keepers.
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The problem is you said an aggressive marine cam. What's aggressive? Who's cam is it?
It matters. A LOT. Esp in a Chevy.
If you are not running a dual spring, you are probably OK.
This is one of the reasons I went roller, just too many worries with old technology running with new (not as good) lubricants. All new engines nowadays are rollers, no zinc required.
BTW - you don't have to tear down the engine to change the springs, you just need an air compresser to keep the valves up while you compress the spring and pull the keepers.
Yep...go to Napa and get what's called an 'on head valve spring compressor'. Also you'll need an air fitting that screws into the spark plug hole so that you can pressurize the cylinder to keep the valves from dropping down into the motor just like speedymopars said. I'd rather do that then risk flattening a cam.
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good advice guys. i have been doing my research i dont want to have another summer of pulling motors. i am thinking of letting the engine builder do the cam break in that way if there is any problem he will be responsible. his shop is only 3 blocks from myhouse..haha..
i will let ya know what happens. i was planning on starting it this weekend but the builder is not open this weekend
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If you prime your oil system with a drill and run the Rotella I don't think you'll have a problem. We always primed them then fired up changing speeds between 1800-2500 rpms. We lost 1 cam in the last
30 years or so with a wiped lobe. I'd call that dam lucky or doing it the right way. (or both)
Changing RPM's was supposed to sling oil to different areas keeping every thing happy. I don't know if it helped but it didn't hurt. It's a slow RPM walk not blipping the throttle.
The cam makers want you to have as much oil supply to the cam as possible on lift off. And rightfully so!
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good advice guys. i have been doing my research i dont want to have another summer of pulling motors. i am thinking of letting the engine builder do the cam break in that way if there is any problem he will be responsible. his shop is only 3 blocks from myhouse..haha..
i will let ya know what happens. i was planning on starting it this weekend but the builder is not open this weekend
3 blocks from your house - YES. Have him do it - that way he can't blame you for any failure ike a wiped cam lobe. One or two days isn't gonna kill you esp with that protection - but it may save you. He would have a hard time arguing that you were responsible for a flattened the cam when he broke it in.
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that is what i am thinking
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Old ass thread, but had a thought, I have to break in the Comp XM cam in my BBC in the next few weeks.
I was thinking why not put the motor together, less pistons/rods, intake manifold, electrics and all, putting some break in oil in it and running the motor on belt driven electric motor to break in the cam?
Ralph posted up a cam break in machine and that's what got me to thinking....
Thoughts? Input? Anybody ever try it?....My biggest problem is noise and not having the pump in the boat, I could do this in the rain in the garage on the engine stand......
GT
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how you going to control oil pressure ???
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I was thinking use hose clamps and some rubber strapping I have on the rod journals and use the oil pump in the motor with a 50# bypass spring, driven off the distributor, obviously will have to have the oil pan and timing cover on...
I'd have the entire engine sort of "together" less intake, pistons, rods, exhaust and so on, I even have a set of BBC "balance bobs" I could throw on the rod journals, just don't think they'll clear anything...
GT
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i dont see why it wouldn't work :-\ cam research is where i sent mine. 60bucks
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Old ass thread, but had a thought, I have to break in the Comp XM cam in my BBC in the next few weeks.
I was thinking why not put the motor together, less pistons/rods, intake manifold, electrics and all, putting some break in oil in it and running the motor on belt driven electric motor to break in the cam?
Ralph posted up a cam break in machine and that's what got me to thinking....
Thoughts? Input? Anybody ever try it?....My biggest problem is noise and not having the pump in the boat, I could do this in the rain in the garage on the engine stand......
I Think this is way to "egg head " for me guys I'm going for the Tylenol ::) ::) ::)
GT
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I had put this in another post...
Here is an interesting option you might be interested in. You send them your cam and lifters..., and they break it in simulating your setup. Fee is $60.00 for a 30 minute break-in
http://www.camresearchcorp.com/
Also this ZDDP is probably the best additive to increase zinc levels to your favorite flavor oil...(low zinc in todays oil is the main reason cams fail soon after break-in)
http://www.cam-shield.com/acatalog/How_to_use.html
xoxo
poverty
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I had put this in another post...
Here is an interesting option you might be interested in. You send them your cam and lifters..., and they break it in simulating your setup. Fee is $60.00 for a 30 minute break-in
http://www.camresearchcorp.com/
Also this ZDDP is probably the best additive to increase zinc levels to your favorite flavor oil...(low zinc in todays oil is the main reason cams fail soon after break-in)
http://www.cam-shield.com/acatalog/How_to_use.html
xoxo
poverty
I don't have an oil issue, I use Amsoils 10-40 Racing oil, also been using Comps, cam lube additive, the reason I want to try this is stupid curiosity...The cam break in deal looks cool, but it got me to thinking doing it this way because I have two identical 468 BBC's and they are both machined and ready to go back together, so I can, at this time get two birds with one stone....
Probably do it this weekend while everyone else is having fun at the Tom Papp run :banghead:
GT
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Cool!!! I'll be curious to hear how you make out GT. Take care.......john