SoCal Jet Boats

Tech Talk => Engine Mechanical / Electrical => Topic started by: sandman on January 08, 2009, 05:54:55 PM

Title: starter noise!
Post by: sandman on January 08, 2009, 05:54:55 PM

Gurus! need your help!

on a 454 does the starter use shims for alighnment like automotive starters sometimes do mine is making some binding noise.
I just got the boat and the starter was just replaced, just checking to see if this guy was a knuckle head or am I?

Title: Re: starter noise!
Post by: crewchief22 on January 08, 2009, 06:01:23 PM

If it is using the traditional pad mount starter it can and probably needs to be shimmed.

Title: Re: starter noise!
Post by: sandman on January 08, 2009, 06:20:05 PM

thank you just needed someone to confirm. the motor is coming out this sat so i will check it out

Title: Re: starter noise!
Post by: sandman on January 08, 2009, 07:33:12 PM

? can I shim this starter with the motor out? how do I verify the alignment?

Title: Re: starter noise!
Post by: beerjet on January 08, 2009, 07:35:56 PM

You can do it with the motor out .
Buy a remote starter switch.
Shim the starter and turn the motor over with the remote starter switch .
The motor doesnt need to run to see if the starter is in correctly .

-beerjet-

Title: Re: starter noise!
Post by: jet boat performance on January 08, 2009, 07:47:24 PM

Propper starter pinion to ring gear engagement is critical on all Chevys for correct engagement ,disengagment and starter /ring gear longevity the measuyrement is made with a "wire guage" between the teeth in the area shown below , we use a "pick" to pull the pinion into the R/G and measurte in the "crotch" (he said crotch :D) Often you can predict what you need by judging whats been milled from the starter hsg surface during the rebuild process (comparison) call or post up if you need help Weve all been thru this Tom
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi147.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fr319%2Fjetboatperformance%2FMisc%2FResizeofDSC09974.jpg&hash=0fa4d827eea387bd3963067d225d32cd3477ae57)

Title: Re: starter noise!
Post by: sandman on January 08, 2009, 10:43:53 PM

Tom-

        You are a wealth of knowledge by what i have seen posted on this site. Seeing how im a newbie to this site and jet boats I will be looking forward to more of your insight in the future. SSOOOOO without kissing your A_ _ much more what is the proper ring gear to pinion measurement I am looking for? And if I get in a jamb I will be posting with some pics so keep your eyes peeled please

Mike

Title: Re: starter noise!
Post by: jet boat performance on January 09, 2009, 08:07:48 AM

Lots of good info here , You have a wealth of "Veterans" that have solid mechanical and marine experience to help you  Thats one of the things thats so great about this Socal board . I'll try later to find the "guage" (which looks like a section of heavy coat hanger) but I belive it to be around .100 in Tom 

Title: Re: starter noise!
Post by: HDriderTH on January 09, 2009, 09:54:50 AM

I can mike a gauge pin here inna little while....'bout a coat hanger diameter

Title: Re: starter noise!
Post by: sandman on January 10, 2009, 06:52:04 AM

Thanks guys motor comes out today!

Title: Re: starter noise!
Post by: HDriderTH on January 10, 2009, 10:38:40 AM

The pin is .120.........good eye Tom

Title: Re: starter noise!
Post by: sandman on January 12, 2009, 10:21:12 PM

gurus! here are the pics from sat motor pull tell me something does this look like a marine version starter? and does it matter the starter was not aligned but im not sure that shims are gonna help let me know. also found a broken tooth on my flexplate gotta replace it

Title: Re: starter noise!
Post by: sandman on January 12, 2009, 10:34:10 PM

more pics

Title: Re: starter noise!
Post by: GT Jets on January 12, 2009, 10:42:45 PM

Quote from: HDriderTH on January 10, 2009, 10:38:40 AM

The pin is .120.........good eye Tom

Otherwise known as an 1/8" drillbit (.125") ;D  I'm telling you I'm backwoods bro's...

GT

Quote from: sandman on January 12, 2009, 10:21:12 PM

gurus! here are the pics from sat motor pull tell me something does this look like a marine version starter? and does it matter the starter was not aligned but im not sure that shims are gonna help let me know. also found a broken tooth on my flexplate gotta replace it

Does not look marine, the way to tell for sure is the "flash plate" between the armature and the starter drive (may have some pics somewhere, I will try to find and post em) is your engine covered? Normally that's the only time it matters, also look at the copper bands coming out of the motor stator where they connect to the back of the solenoid, if there are two metal (copper) straps, that indicates a "high torque" version of the old style starter (used on BBC, trucks and high compression ratio small blocks from the factory) not to be confused with the gear reduction high torque, some folks call them Corvette starters because they are very common in Big block Vettes.
When you put the starter back on the motor, either use brand new starter bolts (not the cheapo's from Kragen) from GM, or make sure yours are dead nuts straight and have some knurling left...If it knocked a tooth out it could have bent a bolt if they were left loose...Seen it a hundred times...

If the starter is a marine version, there is normally a dob of RTV between the solenoid and the starter motor where they meet the drive housing, not always, but normally (required to be approved).

Keep the rear brace too, they work.  ;)

edit; after taking an expanded look at your starter, that is a high torque... ;)

GT

Title: Re: starter noise!
Post by: sandman on January 12, 2009, 10:51:32 PM

more pics

Title: Re: starter noise!
Post by: GT Jets on January 12, 2009, 10:57:44 PM

You need to turn off those valve covers  ;D

I've got some "Old School" gold anodized Moroso valve covers that would look killer on there.... 8)

GT

Title: Re: starter noise!
Post by: sandman on January 12, 2009, 10:58:27 PM

my engine is not covered now but the plan was to build an engine cover so I guess i gotta replace it huh?

Title: Re: starter noise!
Post by: sandman on January 12, 2009, 11:00:47 PM

Quote from: GT Jets on January 12, 2009, 10:57:44 PM

You need to turn off those valve covers  ;D

I've got some "Old School" gold anodized Moroso valve covers that would look killer on there.... 8)

GT

Ya the last owner painted them bummer huh!

Title: Re: starter noise!
Post by: GT Jets on January 12, 2009, 11:01:57 PM

Quote from: sandman on January 12, 2009, 10:58:27 PM

my engine is not covered now but the plan was to build an engine cover so I guess i gotta replace it huh?

You can make it "Marine", if you want I will post up how, do you want to use this thread? You have a good starter there IMO (beats going out and spending long green on new).

If there are any automotive/industrial generator shops around you, most I have dealt with can do the conversion...

GT

Title: Re: starter noise!
Post by: sandman on January 12, 2009, 11:11:00 PM

Yes that sound sweet I wouldnt mind nowing how to convert these myself. Ya use this thread and send me some pics THANKS

Title: Re: starter noise!
Post by: GT Jets on January 12, 2009, 11:18:48 PM

Quote from: sandman on January 12, 2009, 11:11:00 PM

Yes that sound sweet I wouldnt mind nowing how to convert these myself. Ya use this thread and send me some pics THANKS

Tomorrow afternoon, I will get something together...

GT

Title: Re: starter noise!
Post by: sandman on January 12, 2009, 11:24:56 PM

AWSOME!

Title: Re: starter noise!
Post by: HDriderTH on January 13, 2009, 09:00:13 AM

IMPORTANT- Make SURE you have the correct GM Starter bolts! Ruined my day at Parker last year, starter flopping around all over the place.

Title: Re: starter noise!
Post by: 76NORDIC on January 13, 2009, 09:09:40 AM

The one thing I noticed was that the dizzy is at the wrong end :sly: ;D ;D

Title: Re: starter noise!
Post by: crewchief22 on January 13, 2009, 12:38:31 PM

Quote from: 76NORDIC on January 13, 2009, 09:09:40 AM

The one thing I noticed was that the dizzy is at the wrong end :sly: ;D ;D

 ???  ???  It's not a V-drive!  The distributor is in the right place   ;D

Title: Re: starter noise!
Post by: sandman on January 13, 2009, 05:22:39 PM

Its absolutely in the right place!

Title: Re: starter noise!
Post by: GT Jets on January 13, 2009, 07:23:18 PM

This is a standard starter for a 260 HP 350 Chevy from OMC, this one has seen some action  ;D

[attachimg=#]

The little decal is the SAE J1171 label I have mentioned before.

[attachimg=#]

Once opened up the differences are fairly apparent, note the plate blocking off the bendix area from the armature...

[attachimg=#]

The plate and the silicone are all that would be absent from a non marine dealio, some starter drive housings do not have the threaded holes for the plate, some can be drilled and tapped, I have also seen them pop rivited, they suck, I think these are reman. units...

[attachimg=#]

Here are just the plate, Bendix (which has to be removed to add/remove the plate) which is just threaded off after removing the retaining clip and washers.

[attachimg=#]


Hope you find this helpful, sorry for the ugly ass starter...

While its apart, make sure and grease up the threaded portion of the shaft for the Bendix, also a little grease in the rear bearing, these bearings should be clean and free of excess wear, check and make sure the spring steel on the brushes is in good shape and fairly free of rust...

GT

Title: Re: starter noise!
Post by: GT Jets on January 13, 2009, 11:38:54 PM

My first post didn't stick  :banghead:

Anyways...

To take the starter apart.

1. Remove from the engine, closely inspecting the drive housing and bolts for distortion. Obviously after disconnecting the electrical.

2. Remove the screw on the end of the electrode of the solenoid going through the copper straps on the starter motor (5/16" hex).

3. Remove the two mounting screws holding the solenoid to the drive housing (5/16" hex) and rotate the solenoid 45* and pull off,careful of the spring on the plunger.

4. Remove the small snap ring on the hinge point of the bellcrank from the housing and slide out the pin.

5. Remove the two bolts at the rear plate of the motor (5/16" hex) and take the rear plate off, then slide the stator off the armature, the brushes will stay in the stator.

6. If it has the arc plate, remove the two screws from the housing and remove the armature from the drive housing (otherwise, not).

7. Slide the armature and bendix out of the drive housing  (the arc plate will stay with the armature), and pull away the snap ring cover to reveal the snap ring, expand (gently) the snap ring and remove, then rotate the bendix and fiber washer off of the shaft.


Now you are ready to clean up and inspect the starter for problems, lube up moving parts and reassemle, be sure to closely inspect the bendix and the springs on the brushes (they break when rusty because they are just spring steel).

Also look for an exessively worn bellcrank for the bendix, the poles on the crank should be very round with no major flat spots (this is what determines how far the bendix will go to the flywheel). it can be flipped 180* but I don't recommend it...

Both end bearings should fit fit fairly snug too, always use a dab of lube. Don't forget the fiber washer in the rear.

Pay attention to how many shims (if any) were in the bendix end and the mounting surface, the only time shims will be used for making the bendix line up right is when the drivehousing or the block have been machined (read reman. starter.)

Gear reduction starters are pretty good these days and are really not that much dough, a side benifit is they take less CCA than a conventional starter so sometimes it's the way to go, they make a marine version of those too...

Good luck

GT

Title: Re: starter noise!
Post by: sandman on January 14, 2009, 03:05:18 PM

THANKS FOR ALL THE INFO EXTREMELY HEPLFUL

MIKE