SoCal Jet Boats
Tech Talk => Engine Mechanical / Electrical => Topic started by: IRRebel on June 22, 2010, 10:01:39 AM
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OK, So by now everyone knows my lil Moo lost all oil pressure right after launching on Saturday. I had to beleive a bad guage or sender, so I took a couple quick blasts and some mild rattling (Lifters and piston slap probably), so she was beached and pulled out immediately.
So, at home, I pull the motor last night, and curiousity got the best of me so I drop the pan.....everything is where it's supposed to be. Pickup tube is fine. (Theory #3 failed). Pulled the pump, shaft is ok (Theory #1 failed). pulled the pump apart, it's fine (theory #4 failed). Pulled the dizzy, nope, its not sheared or stripped where it engages the shaft either (Theory #3 shot down).
It's not a bad guage or sender, it was NOT pumping oil as the hoses to the remote filter dealio were bone dry when I pulled them loose. Everything appears normal in there, just as I had built it. No noticeable play in the rods, no trash in the pan and the oil looked very clean coming out. gonnna do the coffee filter thing on some of the oil here a lil later.
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Ray
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That not a very good looking oil pump
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Spun Bearing!?!?
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the first pic of the rods, the one with tthe blueing on it, i think that is your problem take off rod cap and look at bearing
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blue = heat
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the first pic of the rods, the one with tthe blueing on it, i think that is your problem take off rod cap and look at bearing
I think you guys are right, theres actually three rods with that blueing on them. At 1 in the morning it struck me as odd. Funny it only sounded like the solid lifters needed adjusting. I've heard spun bearings with no oil pressure, and they knock pretty hard when it took me as long to get to the beach as it did.
Well, it's coming apart. maybe nows the time to replace those expensive D2OE heads with sumpin else, eh Ralph? ;)
Coffee filter test is still processing, but no babbit material as yet.
Ray
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I guess I don't see whats wrong with the oil pump? Brand new with 35 hours of time on it. Seems tight. maybe just the pic?
Ray
So I already asked GT, might as well throw it out there for the rest. When this thing goes back in, I wanna do 4 point replacing the three point on it. Took me an hour and a half to get the engine out, and I swear 45 minutes of that was focking around prying out the driveline.
Anyone got the tools to loan to set it up properly? Or do I need to make my own? I got a couple blocks here and a crank I can toss into one for mock up purposes. Don't see the need for rails on a 1/4 stringer boat, just a std 4 point mount that I have here.
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... lost all oil pressure right after launching on Saturday. I had to beleive a bad guage or sender, so I took a couple quick blasts .....
Ray, when the gauge shows that you lost all oil pressure, shut the engine down.
LO
p.s.: I see nothing wrong with your oil pump; a spun bearing will not kill the oil pressure in your engine.
Keep looking.
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Did you check the pressure relief spring in the pump?
I hope that wasn't a milodon marine pan on a 460, I had the old "lost oil pressure with one".
But then again it would return pressure when the rpms dropped barring catastrophic engine damage prior.
So, I'm hoping for the spring broken
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lifter out of hole ???
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lifter out of hole ???
I was thinking the same...Wouldn't take much and will still run (but make lifter like noises ;) )
GT
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lifter out of hole ???
Dunno yet Ralph. Could be, although I would think I would have had a LOT of rattling if the valvetrain was that bad. Engine stand should be here today, but will be tomorrow night before I can rip it down further.
Paul, I agree, the bearings are the result, the cause is still at large. But in my defense somewhat, I had good reason to suspect the guage/sender. I had issues with all the other guages last year shortly after building this thing. I did shut it down immediately and check for oil leaks, then again at idle. The blasts upriver when it would only wind to 4500 told me something was seriously wrong. This time the guage was right.
Electro, good idea! I'll tear further into the oil pump when I get home at midnight. As far as the pan/pickup, well, we'll agree to disagree on that. never had an issue with it before.
Pics will be coming, this is just plain WEIRD!
Curiousity got the best of me and I pulled the V/C's. gonna be late for work, but WTF. Why I didn't do this at the river I'll never know, but, then, Brain fart.
Ralph, you nailed it!
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Costly mistake, Good 'ol #3 decided it didn't want to be a team player..........
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And it got worse. Minute I pulled the intake I knew I was in trouble. other than the bent pushrod ( #3 again) and broken pushrod and rocker, same cylinder, cam looks like it's been left out in the rain for months and months??? :screwy: Yeah, 4 rod bearings are toast, Got some decisions to make now. Stroker? Obviously a larger cam is in order, maybe I'll fall in line with you 'uns and go roller this time. No valves are bent, pistons are good (Of course, got two more sets of the same ones here, THEY'D Survive..... :screwy: ), bores look good, a little hone maybe.
I'm guessing I had a residual intake manifold leak dripping into the engine for the rides home and weeks at a time in the garage. Reversion, possibly. This is not from a part failure, this is all started from a progessive problem with water in the engine I beleive.
But this time I think I have a better idea what is needed to be done differently on a Hot Rod Marine engine. My dumb ass put this together, and amazingly, has run and performed flawlessly until the Tom Papp deal in January. Not too shabby really for a hack that hasn't built an engine in 20 years. And at least I didn't do as much damage as Rivertard did, ;D
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Ray
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ray, i see the rust but im not convinced ??? the motor ran and that should have wiped the rust off the lobes, but, its only sat a week and that rust looks pretty bad. still thinkin :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\
but it did run with no oil pressure but still the lifters were on the lobes :screwy:
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Yeah, I have a theory on that Ralph. It's a 305 degree cam. It's quite possible I didn't have enough spring pressure to keep the lifters on the lobes on the down side....maybe. I bought them all together, but it IS a possibility the lifters were "flying" over the down side of the cam.
The rust is BAD, wiped it down with an oily rag. Once I get over my disgust I'll take a picture of it. Very pitted.
Ray
PS, there was NO water in the oil or anywhere I could see either. So it's not a development over this week.
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Ya does look a little strange, and also can see rust on a couple of lifters too :thumbdown:
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Well that just plain sucks Ray! Does this mean that you found Waldo? ;) Get busy on the rebuild......
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Another observation..... that valley sure looks DRY ???
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Another observation..... that valley sure looks DRY ???
I wiped it down with shop towels before the pic, Mark. I was looking for water........ :sly:
Good eye though! But there really wasn't much oil laying around up there either......any ideas on that?
Ray
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I am wondering how well your rockers were adjusted, or torqued ??? It's the rust thats getting me, hell even on the lifters ???
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Well that just plain sucks Ray! Does this mean that you found Waldo? ;) Get busy on the rebuild......
Yeah it does, lol. Found why the oil pressure dropped, but I think we're investigating what caused THAT. The rust seems to be the issue here and most likely the cause. Need to figure out where and why THAT happened to fully answer the question.
I am wondering how well your rockers were adjusted, or torqued ??? It's the rust thats getting me, hell even on the lifters ???
Yeah, I'm bad on that, but I had adjusted for .022" lash before the Elsinore trip in January. And even then, only 2 or three needed a lil "tweak" . Boats been out twice since. There is no torque on the rockers, only on the allen screws locking the adjusting nuts on the rollers (Solid lifters). I beleive it's 35 ft lbs, without looking.
Perplexing huh? Yeah, the rust, Ralph even saw it run and take a couple full throttle blasts upriver a few hundred yards! Got me as well! Did NOT expect this.
Ray
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:sly:
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:sly:
Got you thinking too huh Dave? Welcome to my world. If it can happen, I'll be the one to find out how....... :screwy:
Ray
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Got you thinking too huh Dave? Welcome to my world. If it can happen, I'll be the one to find out how....... :screwy:
Ray
Nope Ray..... you Got multiple issues here, just learned to be careful as voicing my opinion on this site.
**************feel free to pm or call************
562-943-5679.
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Nope Ray..... you Got multiple issues here, just learned to be careful as voicing my opinion on this site.
**************feel free to pm or call************
562-943-5679.
LOL, Actually, I was gonna call ya as soon as I saw all this. Then the beer drinking started. Didn't wanna bug ya on a weekend. I'll call ya in the morning. I kinda got an idea what you're going to tell me, and I'm sure I dun wanna hear that either, lol. :thumbup:
Ray
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LOL, Actually, I was gonna call ya as soon as I saw all this. Then the beer drinking started. Didn't wanna bug ya on a weekend. I'll call ya in the morning. I kinda got an idea what you're going to tell me, and I'm sure I dun wanna hear that either, lol. :thumbup:
Ray
Make sure u have the main saddles checked for cracks.
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Nope Ray..... you Got multiple issues here, just learned to be careful as voicing my opinion on this site.
**************feel free to pm or call************
562-943-5679.
WTF is that shit.... I thought this was the tech section? so we all could LEARN what to do or not do with our engines?? I wanna know what let go...
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WTF is that shit.... I thought this was the tech section? so we all could LEARN what to do or not do with our engines?? I wanna know what let go...
And you will. It should be pretty apparent once it's completely torn down and the major components go through their checks, methinks.
As it stands, it is unknown, just suspicions and speculation. Obviously, since that cam rust must have been an ongoing issue in there (Still trying to wrap my head around the cause of that part), contamination was probably a huge factor. Maintenance is another, since the boat sits for extended periods while I play around with another, I should have been fogging and "winterizing" the thing regularly.
I'm not sure anything "let go" just yet, other than the exhaust pushrod. Could just be a bunch of little things that started the day I built it. The bent intake push rod is a direct result from that. Cylinder full of burnt gasses with nowhere to go and under pressure, voila! The number three connecting rod is probably bent as well I would imagine. (#2, #6 and #5 seem to have the worst of the spun bearings)
If it hadn't been for the pushrod breaking, I wouldn'ta ever seen what was going on in there, and 1 more blast upriver last saturday my engine would have looked as bad or worse than Rivertards...... ;D
I'll keep posting ugly pics as i get a chance...........Now who's got a BBF Blower manifold laying around..... :sly:
Ray
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At Temple Bar 1.0 you milkshaked it really good? Twice?
and if I remember it was a lot of water? (Could that of been the introduction of water to the engine?)
Also, after the TP didnt you find an intake manifold leak? (A constant amount of water being placed in the engine?)
Could it just had been a combination of events that when combined with lack of "winterizing" (due to the amount of time it would sit), Not enough spring pressure, rust from the previous water issue (till you fixed after the TP weekend) all slowly compounding to a massive issue?
Just a slow motion chain reaction?
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Two pushrods on same hole = water in cylinders,
With as much water damage that I see in the motor, this has been going on from day 1...
Just my .02c and can't wait to see the heads removed...
Sorry for the poopy luck Ray, maybe it is good you have an entire fleet. :screwy:
;D
GT
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At Temple Bar 1.0 you milkshaked it really good? Twice?
and if I remember it was a lot of water? (Could that of been the introduction of water to the engine?)
Also, after the TP didnt you find an intake manifold leak? (A constant amount of water being placed in the engine?)
Could it just had been a combination of events that when combined with lack of "winterizing" (due to the amount of time it would sit), Not enough spring pressure, rust from the previous water issue (till you fixed after the TP weekend) all slowly compounding to a massive issue?
Just a slow motion chain reaction?
LOL, yeah, what he said... :thumbup:
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Nope Ray..... you Got multiple issues here, just learned to be careful as voicing my opinion on this site.
**************feel free to pm or call************
562-943-5679.
What an absolute load of shit! :thumbdown: If I recall, the thread you're referring to was the one about valve lash adjustment. Rather than take the time to explain your method, to share with the community, you posted something to the effect that if we wanted to know your method it would be the standard SCJB $50. I don't know if that was meant to be a joke, I assumed it was. In any case, this site is like a big ass garage, we all share what we know and we learn from one another, taking it off board via PM's and phone calls is complete and total BULLSHIT. It's not just you, there are others that are always "happy to help, just give us a call" I've bitten my tongue more than I can stand on this matter, sorry if you feel like I'm singling you out, I'm not.
And as I've said before, THANK YOU for all the help you've given me in the past, and THANK YOU to all those who share their knowledge here so that we can all learn something.
Off my soapbox now
Me
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It's all good guys! Will get the heads ripped off tonight and see. Very well could have started with the Mead Milkshake, who knows. It's all a learning experience. :thumbup: Only milkshaked it once there, and it was changed out in about an hour after it happened. Didn't have an issue with it again all last year. Only reared it's ugly head after the Tom Papp memorial.
We'll get it. GT could be right, cylinder full of water, but bores look ok from the bottom. We'll see what they look like from the top
Ray
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Total B/S Skip!.....Great post., show's "Team work" :thumbup:
Now play nice... :P
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Total B/S Skip!.....Great post., show's "Team work" :thumbup:
Now play nice... :P
You're right Dave, I'm sorry 'bout the rant, it was early, I was cranky. I'll play nice now, I promise.
We're good man, you're a top shelf kind of guy.
:-*
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OK, heres the latest pics. this is the affected side, 1, 2, 3, and 4. The head is in that order, left to right, the block pics right to left. I included head gasket pics as well. Probably shoulda took pics of the spark plugs, but they look as normal as they always did, just a tad on the blackish side from being a bit rich. The cylinder is #1. Exhaust valves are the only things different, but then, #3 wasn't running either...... :screwy:
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Ray
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Hey Ray;
1. Gaskets look pretty bad...check mating surfaces with straight edge too.
Firing rings on gaskets dont look cool either.
2. The one head is more than likely cracked in that one chamber...Press Check them! Press. check block too!
For sure , as we discussed last nite, you've been taking on water/Lube problem. Get through the basic inspection first.
Just my thoughts....With any luck you will only need the basics,replace some rods,hone , re-ring,bearings,and tittie pink paint.
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Hey Ray;
1. Gaskets look pretty bad...check mating surfaces with straight edge too.
Firing rings on gaskets dont look cool either.
2. The one head is more than likely cracked in that one chamber...Press Check them! Press. check block too!
For sure , as we discussed last nite, you've been taking on water/Lube problem. Get through the basic inspection first.
Just my thoughts....With any luck you will only need the basics,replace some rods,hone , re-ring,bearings,and tittie pink paint.
Yeah, the head scares me a little, but it looks worse in the pic than in person. Have to remember #3 wasn't running in the end either. They will be checked out, but those heads are NOT going back onto this. Ralph convinced me they were too rare and sought after to run them the way I run things.... :screwy: If they check out, I'll sell them off to someone building a street machine who needs ported D2OE heads. Looking at aluminums right now, but I think I can get C9 heads to perform as well. Obviously, the cam is trash, but it needed something a little more anyway.. >:D
I was releived to see the bores/pistons in pretty good shape. Gives me some hope for the block. Got spare cranks and rods here, so no worries on that end of it. Probably should look into better rods than factory though. I'll get the other head off tomorrow and see where I'm at. spent over an hour trying to find my balancer puller to no avail.........musta loaned it out and it ain't back yet......... :sly:
Thanks Bro! Phone calls will not stop until this thing is alive again! :thumbup:
Ray
Ray