SoCal Jet Boats
Tech Talk => Engine Mechanical / Electrical => Topic started by: GAWnCA on July 14, 2008, 05:46:00 AM
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Ok folks, I took the Miller out for the first time, yesterday for a test and tune run. Here's what we've got going... BBF 460, .030 over-bore, CAM unknown (Been trying to find this out for over 4 months. Compression is 11:1 with Keith Black flat top pistons, Weiand Stealth Intake Manifold, Edelbrock Performer Carburetor, Performer, 750 cfm, 4-Barrel, Square Bore, Manual Choke, Single Inlet (1407).
To start with, this carb has been a BEECH to adjust for idle. Found vacuum leaks and pulled the manifold and installed new Fel Pro intake manifold gaskets and copper coated them down. Also had installed a Rex Marine cable (throttle) Chrome Steel Plate for throttle mount that fits under the carb (pt # 242-107), Found that it was warped and was causing a bad vacuum leak, pulled that and installed new base gasket and solved that leak. All the vacuum leaks are gone.
So here's the problem... Finally got it to idle at about 1100 rpm, any lower and the damn thing sputters and dies. So we set it to idle at 1100 just to get out and see how everythign else worked. Well, from 1100 to about 2200 rpm we are up and on plane, from 2200 to about 3000 rpm we are back to sputtering and running rough, stab the throttle and the secondaries open up and away we go. The engine seemed to love it when those secondaries open up and dump the fuel. Ran like a BAT OUT OF HELL WOT!!!
Do I need to go to a bigger carb or could I have just gotten a bad carb?
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The fact that it ran like a bat out of hell at WOT suggests that the carb size will work. How is your ignition advance curve set up? Also may wanna try a carb rebuild as well, and if there's anything about the carb that isn't stock (i.e. jet sizes, etc etc), change everything back to stock spec as well.
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The fact that it ran like a bat out of hell at WOT suggests that the carb size will work. How is your ignition advance curve set up? Also may wanna try a carb rebuild as well.
The Ignition advance is set to 10* BTC for a total of about 34*. The carb is brand new, if it needs to be rebuilt, Edelbrock can take care of that. ;) Came out of the box and onto the manifold.
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check your power valve(s), pump linkage
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Well, I can see right now, I'm going to have to remove the top of the carb. DAMN!!! :banghead: :mad:
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(https://www.socaljetboats.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi227.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fdd6%2Fpw383426%2FDiagram3.png&hash=a7d347be7a5cb6b8650c48c64eb8281bfc54da56)
;D
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sorry, i thot we were talkin Holley
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sorry, i thot we were talkin Holley
Nope, Edelbrock and I have never had trouble with them until now. :screwy:
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ok, I have a book on them somewhere, I think u need to go after the springs on the metering rods, make sure they move first. U dont have to pull the top but it may be a good idea to take a looksee
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ok, I have a book on them somewhere, I think u need to go after the springs on the metering rods, make sure they move first. U dont have to pull the top but it may be a good idea to take a looksee
HD, I've got the book and the video on this thing and have tried everything they suggest for trouble shooting. So far, none of what they suggest has worked. I guess I'll call Edelbrock and see what they have to say. Even new parts can be bad from the factory and I may have gotten one of those. :mad:
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The Ignition advance is set to 10* BTC for a total of about 34*. The carb is brand new, if it needs to be rebuilt, Edelbrock can take care of that. ;) Came out of the box and onto the manifold.
Have you checked total advance at 3000 rpm? Most distributors only have about 20 degrees mechanical advance built in and with only 10 degrees initial you may not have enough timing.
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Have you checked total advance at 3000 rpm? Most distributors only have about 20 degrees mechanical advance built in and with only 10 degrees initial you may not have enough timing.
Thanks Crewchief. I called Mallory and they told me that this marine dizzy has 24* advance built in and I've got it set at 10* more at idle, for a total of 34*. I'll have a couple of plugs pulled here in a little while and will post the photos and maybe that will help. The is a BBF 460 so 1 -4 are on the right bank and 5 - 8 on the left. I'll label where the plugs came out of. The damn thing idles high 1100 rpm and sputters from 2000 to about 3000 RPM and then comes on.
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Ok, here's the photos of the plugs. I left them large so you can see their condition. DAMN, I''ve got to figure out this thumbnail attachment thing.
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgregaw.home.comcast.net%2FPlugs-1.jpg&hash=a038d234d94af2edc653fabac7227d444ecaf766)
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgregaw.home.comcast.net%2FPlugs-2.jpg&hash=d61132d9c3de97236626a774a197d1efa8ef479f)
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgregaw.home.comcast.net%2FPlugs-3.jpg&hash=557f2c47358431410d63eb8e0193107f043b5b19)
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sounds like a ford virus going around this year. everybodies got this no RPM thing. B-rad u ever figure yours out?
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sounds like a ford virus going around this year.
Just this year??? ;D ;D ;D
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Just this year??? ;D ;D ;D
Yeah and every other year it's Chebby!! >:D ;D :D
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Funny how you chevy guys keep banging the fords my bbf ford just keeps running better and better I love waxing the big block chevy guys even though im a chevy man.....on subject the cam is unknown im assuming it has some size to it the edelbrocks metering circuts dont like cams with lots of overlap but check all your other stuff timing,fuel delivery system,vacuum leaks, if thats ok id look into sending back the carb trying a diffrent one they will hassel you on a return for sure,but if you covered all the other bases its the carb ive had really bad times withthe edelbrocks and mid to high performance engines and fuel issues,long live holley carbs......
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Funny how you chevy guys keep banging the fords my bbf ford just keeps running better and better I love waxing the big block chevy guys even though im a chevy man.....on subject the cam is unknown im assuming it has some size to it the edelbrocks metering circuts dont like cams with lots of overlap but check all your other stuff timing,fuel delivery system,vacuum leaks, if thats ok id look into sending back the carb trying a diffrent one they will hassel you on a return for sure,but if you covered all the other bases its the carb ive had really bad times withthe edelbrocks and mid to high performance engines and fuel issues,long live holley carbs......
This is the first Edelbrock I've had trouble with. It could be that the engine builder did more cam than this 750 cfm likes and I may just have to go bigger.... say 850 Holley and see what that does. I'm also thinking about running up to Colfax and see if another carb (EB) makes a difference.
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I would keep looking for vacuum leaks, if you can't idle down past 1100 rpms you need to fix that first.
If it has a vacuum leak you aren't going to tune anything. Did you try the spraying trick to find leaks?
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This is the first Edelbrock I've had trouble with. It could be that the engine builder did more cam than this 750 cfm likes and I may just have to go bigger.... say 850 Holley and see what that does. I'm also thinking about running up to Colfax and see if another carb (EB) makes a difference.
I would have a hard time with saying the carb is the problem, the high idle rpm totally pointsd towards a huge vacuum leak, or even a cracked intake, too small of a carb. IMHO would never cause what you're experiencing, think about (hate to keep bringing this up)NASCAR, they run nasty SB2 V8's with a restrictor plate you can't get your thumb through.
Is this one of the Carter AFB carbs?, If so that is a very tuneable carb, pick up the "StripKit" if you don't already have one.
Another super stupid question, is there any chance at all the carb linkage is hitting somewhere (are you sure the butterflies are 100% closed?) keeping the throttle blades jacked?
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This is all brand new... Weiand Stealth Intake Manifold, Edelbrock Performer Carburetor, Performer, 750 cfm, 4-Barrel, Square Bore, Manual Choke, Single Inlet (1407).
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Hydraulic cam?
Bet you know where I'm going.........
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Hydraulic cam?
Yup!
Bet you know where I'm going.........
nope. ???
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nope. ???
Any idea how tight the valve lash is? assuming everything is adjustable, also does your oil pressure stay pretty steady?
It almost sounds like the valves are hanging open in the lower rpm range, which would act a lot like a huge vacuum leak, then once you open it up, the lifters get the neccisary "squish" and all is right with the world again, I have only seen this one time before on a 302 small block Ford, but sure sounds similar, It does not smell rich and starts super quik right?
If the lifters pump up, the motor will do all kinds of wierd stuff.
Just a shot in the dark.
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Any idea how tight the valve lash is? assuming everything is adjustable, also does your oil pressure stay pretty steady?
Not sure of the valve lash and will pull a cover to take a look see. Oil pressure at start is right around 80 lbs and pretty much stays there.
It almost sounds like the valves are hanging open in the lower rpm range, which would act a lot like a huge vacuum leak, then once you open it up, the lifters get the neccisary "squish" and all is right with the world again, I have only seen this one time before on a 302 small block Ford, but sure sounds similar, It does not smell rich and starts super quik right?
Doesn't smell like there's too much gas, and it does start with a turn or so of the key and a few presses on the pedal.
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Well, I decided to pull the top of the carb off to check the float setting, remember, this carb has only been installed for about a month and less than 5 gallons of gas pumped through it, new gas in freshly cleaned tanks and all new fuel lines and 3 filters between the carb and the fuel tanks. Here's what I found in the bowls when I pulled the top off.
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgregaw.home.comcast.net%2F007med.jpg&hash=df2fc2edb6c3f2f104573beb907edd0007c3e986)
Notice the corrosion in the bottom of the bowls with the gas in. I wouldn't think a brand new carb would have this problem.
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgregaw.home.comcast.net%2F008med.jpg&hash=ec937d5038f8d435b0f757085f556aed95e17fc9)
Better view now that the gas has been drained out and the bowls allowed to dry. You can see what looks like varnish in the bottom of the bowls. I don't think 5 gallons of gas would do this in just a short period of time. Shell premium gas at that.
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgregaw.home.comcast.net%2F012med.jpg&hash=a37477f9950f3b1a582222f055d1bd232b7d3f76)
Some of the gunk that I scraped out of the bottom of one of the bowls. Could it be that Summit sold me a reconditioned or returned/used carb as a new one?
Bowl floats were at the right adjustments.
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Are you running a fuel filter?
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Are you running a fuel filter?
3 of them!! One from each tank and another at the carb.
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well that crap couldnt of gotten thru 3 filters....I would be giving Summit a call and tell them your concerns and see what they are willing to do for you
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well that crap couldnt of gotten thru 3 filters....I would be giving Summit a call and tell them your concerns and see what they are willing to do for you
I sent them email and photos. They can see my concerns better than me trying to tell them over the phone. I also sent the photos to Edlebrock and y concerns with Summit. I'll hook up to the hose in an hour or so and see if NOW I can get it to idle. I may pour some carb cleaner in the bowls and cycle that through after it's had a few minutes to soak. Hell, this could have been my idle problem all along. It was a bugger to adjust to start with. Might even make timing it more accurate. Thanks for the suggestion to call, but I am now pissed off and on top of it. I'll let you know what comes of this. This is BS if they did sell me a used carb as a new one. Not very good advertisement for them, and I thought they were great. Maybe this was just an error and they'll make it right.
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hey greg=sorry to here all your problems=will be at camp far west sunday at 1/4 mile cove if you want to do some testing and such=will be checking new fuel delivery set up on the southwind and my kid will be out with his youngblood trying his new ignition setupwe can all have a big fix it party--yeehaw
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hey greg=sorry to here all your problems=will be at camp far west sunday at 1/4 mile cove if you want to do some testing and such=will be checking new fuel delivery set up on the southwind and my kid will be out with his youngblood trying his new ignition setupwe can all have a big fix it party--yeehaw
Well, I'm going to pull it out so I can hook a hose up and see if I can get it to run here at home before I drive out there. May just go to Discovery Park when I go out.
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Well, I got the crap cleaned out the best I could. Squirted carb cleaner in and wiped out the bowls several times and put it back together. Pulled out so I could hook up a hose, turn on the water, reset the idle adjustment needles to 2 1/2 turns out and hit the throttle a few times to get the gas back into the carb and it fired. Turned the idle screw on the throttle linkage out and now have it idling at 800 RPMs instead of 1100. Now I can fire it up at the turn of the key, when warm. No choke. I'm still going to make Summit replace the carb with a NEW one. I hope to get to the river tomorrow or the next day.
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You'll probably have to get Edelbrock to issue Summit a return credit. When we had oil pan issues Summit pretty much said, "It ain't my dog" cause it can't be the pan..... no refund.
When we got Milodon to step in we got the refund. I'll be surprised if Summit stands behind it.
Let us know how you make out and good luck.
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Well, I've spent a lot of money with Summit over the past several months so I feel pretty confident in them but I'll let you know what happens.
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That's alot of garbage in the carb :o
Summit is very good at putting it back to the manufacturer, check your invoice to see if it notes the serial number which would have been printed on the box the carb came in bu the upc code, I had an issue with three MSD boxes that all had a problem with what they called "infant mortality"(MSD 6AL) and they sent me to MSD, they (MSD) took the boxes back and had them analyzed and sent me three new boxes the next week, Summit said it was because the manufactures warranty is "honored" through Summit, but if I deal with the Manufacturer directly, they would take care of any shipping.
Your problem seems like a individual store problem and would see if the carb serial number you have has been previously purchased, if your invoice has a serial number on it, this should be really easy to track, sometimes the stores get inventory from other branches, and that may be a problem. Let us know how it turns out, I don't think Edelbrock will do anything at all, but send them an E-mail anyway, they may make a phone call in your defense, especially if you tell them that you like their products and use them often, there is no way it could hurt (besides they might send you a T-shirt or something).
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That's alot of garbage in the carb :o
Summit is very good at putting it back to the manufacturer, check your invoice to see if it notes the serial number which would have been printed on the box the carb came in bu the upc code, I had an issue with three MSD boxes that all had a problem with what they called "infant mortality"(MSD 6AL) and they sent me to MSD, they (MSD) took the boxes back and had them analyzed and sent me three new boxes the next week, Summit said it was because the manufactures warranty is "honored" through Summit, but if I deal with the Manufacturer directly, they would take care of any shipping.
Your problem seems like a individual store problem and would see if the carb serial number you have has been previously purchased, if your invoice has a serial number on it, this should be really easy to track, sometimes the stores get inventory from other branches, and that may be a problem. Let us know how it turns out, I don't think Edelbrock will do anything at all, but send them an E-mail anyway, they may make a phone call in your defense, especially if you tell them that you like their products and use them often, there is no way it could hurt (besides they might send you a T-shirt or something).
This kind of stuff always happens on the week-end so you have to wait until Monday or Tuesday to hear anything back. I'll let you know how it goes.
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I can't believe you just posted that, I literally just said that to my wife about the little fan that took a dump in my refrigerator today :D
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I can't believe you just posted that, I literally just said that to my wife about the little fan that took a dump in my refrigerator today :D
Well it's true, nothing happens during the week unless it's after closing time and then you have to wait until the next day anyway. :banghead: Good luck on the fan, atleast nothing of mine can spoil for lack of refrigeration. Go get some dry ice, and some beer while you're at the store. ;)