SoCal Jet Boats
Tech Talk => Engine Mechanical / Electrical => Topic started by: quick olds on February 17, 2013, 12:30:39 PM
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Whos running a regulator off ther pump and what one do you recodmend workin on the boat today and wanted to get the plumbing done thanks for info
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Ive always ran a gate valve.
This subject is preference.
Boats have always had gate valves without issues but again, its preference either way.
-beerjet-
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Ya it has a gate valve now i was just thinkin it would be more consistent to run a regulator
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Ya it has a gate valve now i was just thinkin it would be more consistent to run a regulator
You will find way larger temperature settings swings (stupid spell check...) with a regulator valve. Gate valve provides variable flow, regulator will not.
GT
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Ok that makes sense i just dont want to run too much water and as of now im gonna run my headers dry they were blue when i got them so im gonna paint them with black header paint and run them dry
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Thats a whole other can of worms....
That everyone will say their way is the best.
-beerjet-
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Dont they run too hot dry? and is it better to run water through them?
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They run hot either way.
-beerjet-
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They run hot either way.
-beerjet-
X2
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Just another two cents, I put a gate valve on mine when I had my pump rebuilt. McClure says a good working pump will produce 150psi and that is too much for a water jacket. Adjust the gate valve to run a good temp that works while driving or idling and you're good.
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Is running dry better? Or is it just a personal preference?
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I dont think anyone has proven anything either way.
The main reason for running water through them is to preserve the chrome.
And keeping the temp down for passengers.
-beerjet-
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I closed my valve to the headers to see how much of a difference it will make and it opened up alot and my chrome was shot when i got tge headers so im painting tgem black and running them dry but i dont have an engine cover to worry about catching on fire and all my seating is infront of engine just gotta remember there dry now and not touch them when walkin around my boat after a run
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Oh and im just gonna run the gate valve unless i start having gasket issues thats all i was worried about was having too much pressure and blowing gaskets thanks for the info guys and ill try to make some meets this season >:D
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Oh and im just gonna run the gate valve unless i start having gasket issues thats all i was worried about was having too much pressure and blowing gaskets thanks for the info guys and ill try to make some meets this season >:D
I was went round and round with this last year, in the end I put a pressure gauge on the manifold started with a 150 psi-gauge didnt move, then to 0-60 same thing- finally ended up with a 0-10 psi and found my stocker runs only at 8 psi under full throttle I have 2 water dumps on mine temps stay very cool never above 160. So if your worried try a gauge, I bought it a regular hardware store-I think it was intended for boilers? I face it towards me while driving and look at it here and there, I suck up seaweed soup I'll see pressure fall. I watch only because I blued my Bassets last year....grrrrrrr
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White Rouge and a buffing wheel should take that bluing off. Tested it on a set I had and it took some pressure but the bluing and yellowing came right off
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White Rouge and a buffing wheel should take that bluing off. Tested it on a set I had and it took some pressure but the bluing and yellowing came right off
If that works I'll buy the beer at least till I pass out.
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I have a Thermostat 160* with a by-pass in the Thermostat housing to solve the Eng temp issue and no gate valves to solve water pressure issue the Reason = ( Gate valves may cause excess pressure into block or over transom headers if Leaned out to achieve proper temp in block your restricting the flow on the exit to keep the water slow enough to keep at a warm temp.)
On over the transom headers one line goes from your Themostat housing and feeds your Header pressure TEE which some have a gate valve to control inlet water pressure. One line goes to a gate valve and then overboard If you Lean out the gate valve your putting more water pressure to the Header TEE because it cant dump overboard and it may end up with water in your oil and vise versa if its open too far too much water dumps overboard & you blue your Headers
I have a 12 psi Relief valve off of the pump Jet drive "Water Feed" to not allow excess water pressure into my block (the water dumps overboard if relief lifts I had to install a new outlet) I have two Header water inlets and exits for great flow without pressure build up
The water that feeds my wet stacks is supplied now from the plug port (That is pipe plugged on your manifold) - I have a 90* elbow installed under the Thermostat housing on the intake manifold water crossover that runs to the hose that goes to the gate valve in between the 90 elbow and Header TEE to control flow to the wet stacks without interupting water flow exiting the engine. This gate valve is not disrupting "pressure". Adjust this gate till you get a fine mist from your Headers they don't need a bunch of water
The new route of the water exiting my engine is now from each fitting off of the Thermostat housing going to two "individual" dumps overboard :beer: :beer:
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Okay so mine is pump to 12 PSI Reg to tee
Tee to water pump inlet through motor out 160 Thermostat housing
From thermostat housing one line to headers one line to dump overboard
This solves blocktemp issue pressure issues and colored header issues
My two cents
:beer:
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Jet fevers set up is just like mine except I don't run a thermostat. I did a post on a topic about this about two years ago. There is a difference between pressure and volume of water. I'd say go with this setup, minus the thermostat if you don't already have one. It gives you a lot of room to adjust.
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Well the Thermostat keeps your Engine @ proper temp ( I like 160* )
Mine has two small bypass pores machined in but you can buy a bypass kit for a chevy
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Well the Thermostat keeps your Engine @ proper temp ( I like 160* )
Mine has two small bypass pores machined in but you can buy a bypass kit for a chevy
What determines "proper temp"?
I have no problem with thermostats other than it is one more thing to screw up.
If the water flow is unregulated other than a reduced opening at the gate valve, it is basically doing the same thing, IMHO going with a pressure regulator is one step forward, then the stat is a step back. I am a fan of one or the other or none.
Literally the only time I like to see a thermostat is when the engine has an automotive style water pump on it.
To each their own, but I like to keep things silly simple, if the clearances are correct in the build as far as machining, the motor will be completely happy running at 120*F, you can make a ton of HP running the motor cooler. It lowers combustion chamber temperatures which reduces detonation as well...
Two Fer. :thumbup:
If you found something that works for you, run with it... ;)
On the race boat, I liked using the drain holes in the block to feed the water and have water leaving all four corners of the heads... Seemed to really even out the temperatures and keep sand/silt at bay.
GT
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Well Proper Temp is a constant temp (as much as possible from lake water) anywhere from 140*-180* so 160 is kinda the middle road. Thats my opinion not far off from your 120*
So people can use the thermostat to help that out
A engine will appriciate a constant temp which will actually NOT cause detonation unless the combustion chambers are REALLY hot and your right it will run happy @ 120*
Furthermore with your Gate valve you COULD achieve good Engine block temp but the lack of water valume going through the Heads could be costly head gasket, water in the oil, intake gasket any of those could fail from the PRESSURE let alone turn your nice looking pipes into an ugly mess from the lack of water
Hey probly more than most run with gate valves but if you have the chance to plum a proper set up why not right
Anyway the thread is water pressure and my opinion gate valves are not the best option to control flow or pressure. Hence I have regulator for pressure its a 12 psi with a relieve that dumps overboard constant psi ALL DAY and Thermostat for Temp two seperate issues but are tied to each other through this process and I was sharing my set up
Not everyone knows what they are doing when turning that gate it will flow fine going in the inlet but you run a gate to slow the flow on the outlet to reach your 120* right that creates back pressure if you divorce the block cooling and regulate pressure and keep good water flow you should be good to go and not everyone will run a thermostat or a regulator but when your WOT theres hella water pressure right and when your cruising theres less flow so why you wanna keep adjusting the gate valve??? :screwy: Hence I got the regulator just for the pressure
It works dont get me wrong but your motor will see HELLA (NOR CAL TERM) fluxuations in temp and pressure so bottom line to me its just reassurance Not trying to write a book just trying to get out my thoughts :beer:
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Well I thought the 12psi water pressure is about WOT. Cars cooling systems you don't want over 15psi any time. When cruising/ idling boat water psi is not 12psi which causes engine temp to go up 160. If you set idle water psi at 12, WOT water psi would be much greater which is not good.
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My thoughts on all this. The pressure in a car's cooling system is determined by the radiator cap only 12-15 psi the norm. The reason for the pressure is only to raise the boiling point of the water, boiling water will not absorb heat and transfer it to the radiator-and a t-stat stops or limits the water from leaving the radiator so that we can have heat transfer from the engine coolant to ambient air. The water flow from a standard water pump is much lower than what a jet makes but if you had no restrictions or very low restrictions on the water coming out of the block the pressure isnt a problem what we will see is a very high volume of water, on a car it must be slow so the radiator can absorb the heat.
The problem I have with a tstat, and I've researched this up down is this, 1. our boats suck up sand and grains unless you have a inlet filter, not many people have, and I cant see that working well with a tstat that was intended for antifreeze that is way more lubricated than water, 2 the shock of very cold water-Colorado river this weekend was 51*F confirmed with my Fluke laser pointer- going into an engine that is 160-180 when the tstat opens will cause the metals to contract and expand like crazy, 3. marine engine are set up looser than a car engine because a car spends most of its life at 1500-2500 rpms while a jet boat spends most its life at 3500 or higher and it will stay at WOT longer than any car engine so pistons in our boats will expand much more than a cars engine.
I couldnt build heat in my engine for nothing this past weekend say maybe 130 once after a 60 second WOT blast otherwise it just stayed at 100 mostly. Poor and slow water flow into the engine can and will cause hot pockets in the engine and that will cause warping and cracking-also keep in mind-this is important-car's coolant systems are air free and many of the new cars have air bleeder valves to purge the air pockets-I never checked but I can only GUESS the water coming from a jet pump is loaded with air bubbles.
Its not so much keeping and eye on the water temp but the temp of the oil, it will tell you way more and that was the reason I had the temp gun with me to verify my oil temp was good, yes I will get an oil temp gauge but I just put in new oil and was just trying to get to the lake and shake down my new intake and HEI combo. Even with such cold water temps I saw oil temp float around 190-220. In the race car world an ideal engine ready to make a 1/4 mile pass I would love to see 120-130 degree water temp and 180 oil temp.
Now again this is coming from a guy who has a good back ground in drag racing and VERY limited knowledge in jet boats but this is just what makes sense to me and from all that I researched so far. So if anyone believes Im way off tell I'd love to hear and/or learn more, I'm not here to get into a pissing match I'm just trying to help out and even to make sure I'm right. ::)
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Rocky's got it-
In a car, closed cooling, a GOOD radiator cools the antifreeze ~ 50*, so the antifreeze goes from 130* to 180*, controlled by the t-stat.
On a jet boat OPEN cooling system, (single pass), when the river is 51*, the engine is adding ~50*, thus a 101* temp EXIT reading.
'Flashing' the river water from 51* to 160* to 180* is asking for problems, a 110* to 130+* gain (steam creates pressure, pressure finds the path of least resistance, head gasket, intake gasket, hoses etc.)
I agree with GT, a T-stat needs an auto style water pump, reguardless of application, (like a merc) and better off in a closed cooling system.
Thats all I got.
Dan'l
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We'll allow me to retort (In a Samuel L Jackson Pulpfiction voice)
The question of the topic was WATER PRESSURE
I control my PRESSURE from the regulator off the pump before it goes into my block and then it goes freely out
How do u guys control PRESSURE
Forget my thermostat that's just how I control temp and before u respond read the first response I posted
QuickOlds is worried about blown gaskets which is what is gonna happen if you screw your gate valve adjustment up
my way bet u dollars to doughnuts not gonna blow a gasket from too much pressure
And my way lets u have seperate control of you header cooling without disturbing block coolant = My Bassett's still gorgeous
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1) 3/8" Line in
2) 5/8" or 3/4' Lines out
Valve for header @ seat
Dan'l
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Whos running a regulator off ther pump and what one do you recodmend workin on the boat today and wanted to get the plumbing done thanks for info
Well like everyone said its preference and my set up is a bit of a cluster to look at but it's what I want, I run a 4in length brass nipple off the pump with a ball valve(instant on/off oh sh!t valve) followed by a brass T with my pressure regulator set at 15-18psi (so i no blow hoses) and a gate valve to adjust my flow. My set up my peace of mind.
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:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
I know its hard to see at first what I'm trying to explain
And I'd like to say I'm not disregarding any thoughts or info or trying to argue just trying to give a lil something to think about
Engine coolant. Pump to Reg to water pump port through block out thermostat housing (one port) then over board
Exhaust coolant (u want a fine mist) second port of thermostat to bassett inlet out heade. U could use any water port from manifold for the water source for your exhaust coolant Point is they are divorced systems u can now control water flow to header without building block BACK PRESSURE
This set up regulates PRESSURE before entering and no other time is regulated out to cause back PRESSURE in block
A gate inlet which adjusts flow (fine goin in block) your issue is the gate limiting flow and PRESSURE out while your trying to control flow to control temp your your risking building PRESSURE inside your block and or bluing your headers
You can get the right combo with gates by adjusting this and that but to get a set temp plus no back pressure but god water flow to your exhaust.... WHY WORK SO HARD TO ACHEIVE IT :screwy:
HEY JACK I JUST SET IT AND FORGET IT (uncle Si)
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Well like everyone said its preference and my set up is a bit of a cluster to look at but it's what I want, I run a 4in length brass nipple off the pump with a ball valve(instant on/off oh sh!t valve) followed by a brass T with my pressure regulator set at 15-18psi (so i no blow hoses) and a gate valve to adjust my flow. My set up my peace of mind.
Hopefully constructive criticism.
Take the nipple off the pump and use a couple of push lock barb fittings and hose clamp them with silicone hose hose clamps and good quality hose.
The nipple is too rigid and susceptible to breakage due to vibration. If this does break, the boat has no choice but to visit Davy Jones locker...
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
I know its hard to see at first what I'm trying to explain
And I'd like to say I'm not disregarding any thoughts or info or trying to argue just trying to give a lil something to think about
Engine coolant. Pump to Reg to water pump port through block out thermostat housing (one port) then over board
Exhaust coolant (u want a fine mist) second port of thermostat to bassett inlet out heade. U could use any water port from manifold for the water source for your exhaust coolant Point is they are divorced systems u can now control water flow to header without building block BACK PRESSURE
This set up regulates PRESSURE before entering and no other time is regulated out to cause back PRESSURE in block
A gate inlet which adjusts flow (fine goin in block) your issue is the gate limiting flow and PRESSURE out while your trying to control flow to control temp your your risking building PRESSURE inside your block and or bluing your headers
You can get the right combo with gates by adjusting this and that but to get a set temp plus no back pressure but god water flow to your exhaust.... WHY WORK SO HARD TO ACHEIVE IT :screwy:
HEY JACK I JUST SET IT AND FORGET IT (uncle Si)
I totally understand where your coming from, but colder is actually better in most cases. That is as long as you can get the oil temperature up to boil off any condensation. My argument was not against you directly, just saying skinning a cat can have numerous instructions.
I have built thermostatic pressure valves for certain projects and ended up having way too much money tied up in something that ultimately is not required.
GT
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Well, I'm here in Nor Cal and put my boat in a lake - Not 50* River water.
I'd like to add this Fact - Engine Running 12 psi with water will have to run over 200* to boil the water.
Please expalin how an engine running colder works best in most cases??? An engine running colder is hard to get good viscosity with the oil and will be harder for the parts to move resulting in loss of power and more wear on parts.
An engine running close to 200* will burn the fuel better (By vaporizing more fuel) wich gives more cumbustion and your oil will protect your moving parts better.
But I'm all ears on how a colder motor works better?
Will the boat run cold as hell - Yes
Does a gate valve setup work - Yes
Can a person get the gate valve water flow through block and Wet Stacks work - Yes
Can a person get the ratio wrong - Yes and you could end up with blue headers, water in oil, blown gaskets,
I'm just asking why do you wanna keep adjusting valves?
The begining of the Thread was Water Pressure and I do not think with a gate valve system you can control it as well as by using a regulator. The old Thermostat was the other side of that coin to control temp cuz they go hand in hand.
Seems like alot of people ask about this subject just rying to get as much info and thoughts out there as possible and I'm hearing all your opinions
Thanks
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Well, I'm here in Nor Cal and put my boat in a lake - Not 50* River water.
I'd like to add this Fact - Engine Running 12 psi with water will have to run over 200* to boil the water.
Please expalin how an engine running colder works best in most cases??? An engine running colder is hard to get good viscosity with the oil and will be harder for the parts to move resulting in loss of power and more wear on parts.
An engine running close to 200* will burn the fuel better (By vaporizing more fuel) wich gives more cumbustion and your oil will protect your moving parts better.
But I'm all ears on how a colder motor works better?
Will the boat run cold as hell - Yes
Does a gate valve setup work - Yes
Can a person get the gate valve water flow through block and Wet Stacks work - Yes
Can a person get the ratio wrong - Yes and you could end up with blue headers, water in oil, blown gaskets,
I'm just asking why do you wanna keep adjusting valves?
The begining of the Thread was Water Pressure and I do not think with a gate valve system you can control it as well as by using a regulator. The old Thermostat was the other side of that coin to control temp cuz they go hand in hand.
Seems like alot of people ask about this subject just rying to get as much info and thoughts out there as possible and I'm hearing all your opinions
Thanks
I am not going to come out here and say you are 100% wrong. I am also not calling you out. Not how I roll.
What I will say is, the engine does not have to run at 200 degrees to boil the water.... The fact is that it can boil the water at 120 degrees gauge temperature because the temperature of the cooling water is a mean average, not linear. As flow slows down (as it would with a thermostat and or a pressure regulator) and creates hot spots, also referred to as stream pockets.
I will follow up with more once I am in front of an actual computer, this phone thing is killing me...
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May be true You are probly right
However will u admit my way controls pressure better
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Let's try this again... :)
Well, I'm here in Nor Cal and put my boat in a lake - Not 50* River water.
IMHO makes no difference what temperature the water is with either system...
I'd like to add this Fact - Engine Running 12 psi with water will have to run over 200* to boil the water.
You are actually really incorrect on this... In short because you are introducing water to the front of the engine, which just happens to be the same place you are letting it out. There is no other means of moving the water throughout the block, so the rear of the engine could literally be running at 240*F when your gauge is reading 160*. Water takes the path of least resistance. That is just simple physics.
Please expalin how an engine running colder works best in most cases??? An engine running colder is hard to get good viscosity with the oil and will be harder for the parts to move resulting in loss of power and more wear on parts.
Your are really close on this one...
Which is why it is imperative that when building the engine in the first place that the running temperatures are taken into account. There are numerous threads on this forum that talk about proper clearances when building a true "jet boat motor". The oil viscosity thing is incorrect though, the water temperatures the engine runs has little to do with oil temperatures/viscosity, most of the engines that have been used in the jet boat industry have very little contact between water jackets and oil passageways.
Load on the engine and combustion are what heats the crankcase oil.
An engine running close to 200* will burn the fuel better (By vaporizing more fuel) wich gives more cumbustion and your oil will protect your moving parts better.
Nope. Fact; the largest reason automotive engines have thermostatic controls is for lowering emissions and the ability to run tighter tolerances so they can run 200,000 miles at freeway speeds.
The colder you can get an engine to run, the more "heat" you can put into the combustion chamber, heat being air/fuel. More air/fuel = more HP. The one thing the warmer temperatures can do is improve driveablilty and potentially fuel economy, but I doubt seriously it can be measured in a jet that virtually does not even move at anything below1500 rpm.
But I'm all ears on how a colder motor works better?
No one said it worked better, but there is the argument of "just as well" without the bells and whistles that could potentially get clogged with sand/crap and fail.
Will the boat run cold as hell - Yes
Like a raped baboon.
Does a gate valve setup work - Yes
So what's the discussion?
Can a person get the gate valve water flow through block and Wet Stacks work - Yes
This is actually quite simple to get to work... It becomes a "set it and forget it" 90% of the time.
Can a person get the ratio wrong - Yes and you could end up with blue headers, water in oil, blown gaskets,
I'm just asking why do you wanna keep adjusting valves?
The same thing holds true with a regulator and relief set up, those items are not maintenance free and bullet proof, these valves were made for either city water or treated water, the last time I checked, the water coming out of the lake/rivers is anything but clean. Being a union pipefitter, you will just have to trust me on that one.
The begining of the Thread was Water Pressure and I do not think with a gate valve system you can control it as well as by using a regulator. The old Thermostat was the other side of that coin to control temp cuz they go hand in hand.
If the the water has more ways of getting out than getting in, it becomes pretty evident that it will work if everything is sized appropriately. It is when this is not done right that problems occur. One of the guys we boat with quite frequently has a 1979 Miller with an Oldsmobile and the Hobbs meter shows 770 hours last time I looked at it, the engine has been out twice, once for a rear main seal leak and once to reset the intake due to an unfortunate meeting between the bottom of a river an the intake fins. Runs right to 5,000 RPM and does an honest 65 MPH. I want to say the temperature gauge never shows more than 150 degrees at idle and runs about 120 degrees balls out.
Seems like alot of people ask about this subject just rying to get as much info and thoughts out there as possible and I'm hearing all your opinions
Thanks
It is y opinion that this is often way over thought. I am guilty of it myself when we were racing river jets... I always found myself ripping all the accessories out and going back to an $18 Red and White ten turn gate valve and a tie wrap. If you really think about it, there are no moving parts, nothing to wear out, fewer hoses to potentially leak and easy to explain how it all works.
I respect your opinion and understand where you are coming from, but facts are facts. Just one last point, if your engine was machined with jet boat tolerances (a tad more rod/main bearing clearances and more piston to cylinder wall clearances) and you ran it at 160 or 180 degrees, I am not sure how long she will play nice.
You have to remember that my dad owned and operated an automotive parts store and machine shop for over 30 years and my uncle was his machinist for nearly 20 of those years and his shop was right down the street from Gromm racing heads in San Jose, so to say I have been around it for a while is the understatement of the century..
Be safe and have fun.
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May be true You are probly right
However will u admit my way controls pressure better
No... I wont.
let me tell you quickly why.
You are running the same pressure under every load scenario. An automotive engine does not even do that.... The warmer an automotive engine gets, the higher the pressure gets. This is why they use a pressure reliving cap on the radiator.
Also, under your system, the flow is pretty constant, while engine load/cooling requirements are not. Without the thermostat system regulating flow through the block, your system would not work at all. That being said, just because the water is leaving at a certain temperature does not necessarily mean that the entire engine is running at a desired temp, an automotive engine has a block mounted water pump for just this reason, the water circulated throughout the engine until the desired temperature is reached, you are just simply slowing it down. no guarantees at all the cylinder 7 and 8 aren't running at 300*F... This is the exact reason I have a problem with constant pressure systems.
GT
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stop pickin on my thermostat
HOW DOES YOUR GATE REGULATE PRESSURE.
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No... I wont.
let me tell you quickly why.
You are running the same pressure under every load scenario. An automotive engine does not even do that.... The warmer an automotive engine gets, the higher the pressure gets. This is why they use a pressure reliving cap on the radiator.
Also, under your system, the flow is pretty constant, while engine load/cooling requirements are not.
GT
Right on GT thats what I wanted to hear...
This thread is pressure and You just said I am running the same PRESSURE under every load scenario.
I'm not talkning about flow or temps or any of that I'm trying to concentrate on pressure
You are absolutely right a (closed Loop) in a car does need a cap that relieves under the hood but mine isnt a closed loop theres no restriction coming out the block
I'm waiting to hear how you control pressure with a gate valve not water flow pressure in the block???
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Right on GT thats what I wanted to hear...
This thread is pressure and You just said I am running the same PRESSURE under every load scenario.
I'm not talkning about flow or temps or any of that I'm trying to concentrate on pressure
You are absolutely right a (closed Loop) in a car does need a cap that relieves under the hood but mine isnt a closed loop theres no restriction coming out the block
I'm waiting to hear how you control pressure with a gate valve not water flow pressure in the block???
Easy... Simple physics again. Lets just say I have my gate valve about three turns open (which works out to be about 30% give or take). The Bassett tee I use has an 8 pound spring in it ( I think) and my dump valve is 7/16" inside diameter.
With that restriction of the incoming water FLOW, there is no way it can exceed a PRESSURE that will cause any harm.
If you find the pressure runs too high, use a larger dump fitting... The flow on the headers is extremely small, so even with them shut off, it really has no effect on block pressure.
Set the gate valve so the water to the headers comes in between 1500 and 1800 RPM, the temperature will pretty much float around between 120 and 170 degrees F, my junk typically idles around 1100, so I seldom see more than about 155*F.
Variable flow would basically keep the temperatures fairly consistent, basically because the pump pressure goes up as the pump speed increases. Works like magic.
GT
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Easy... Simple physics again. Lets just say I have my gate valve about three turns open (which works out to be about 30% give or take). The Bassett tee I use has an 8 pound spring in it ( I think) and my dump valve is 7/16" inside diameter.
With that restriction of the incoming water FLOW, there is no way it can exceed a PRESSURE that will cause any harm.
If you find the pressure runs too high, use a larger dump fitting... The flow on the headers is extremely small, so even with them shut off, it really has no effect on block pressure.
Set the gate valve so the water to the headers comes in between 1500 and 1800 RPM, the temperature will pretty much float around between 120 and 170 degrees F, my junk typically idles around 1100, so I seldom see more than about 155*F.
Variable flow would basically keep the temperatures fairly consistent, basically because the pump pressure goes up as the pump speed increases. Works like magic.
GT
So you have one Gate off the pump Then into the block then two lines on to the Bassett TEE and one to a port overboard? Or to another Gate then overboard?
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So you have one Gate off the pump Then into the block then two lines on to the Bassett TEE and one to a port overboard? Or to another Gate then overboard?
Goes like this...
Pump to gate valve, to tee, to front of block, out of stat housing (no stat ::) ) twice, once to control tee, other to dump line... (no valve)..
Gt
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Okay,
Gate valves are often used when a straight-line flow of fluid and minimum restriction is desired. The gate faces can form a wedge shape or they can be parallel. Gate valves are primarily used to permit or prevent the flow of liquids, but typical gate valves shouldn't be used for regulating flow, unless they are specifically designed for that purpose. Typical gate valves are designed to be fully opened or closed.
I am not a fan of gates personally because of the above facts. You like the 99% of boaters have the gate and it works but I like the constant controlled pressure and water flow of my set up. I feel my set up has a fine adjustability. This is how I control my pressure.
I think you have a normal set up with your system. You have found the right combo with your set up but my opinion it isnt a precise method. I too have a bassett tee that comes on @ 1500RPM and no throttle valve out of the block to build pressure. I have seen gates on the back end Dump to slow the flow to try to reach a temp range in the block and thats where things get messy and people can build pressure in the block. I also think with all the people asking similar questions they are not as expierienced around the motor as you are and may not hit the right combo.
I had the gate and had issues now I have this set up no issues. I stongly feel it works precisely and its a set it and forget it system.
I just happen to like to use that T-stat to reach a desired temp. I dont feel colder is better. I'm also running a mild 460 not a race boat and I'm not in any rivers.
Okay my last question. Do you ever adjust the gate on your set up and are you running WOT or a pleasure boat ski tube and every now and then WOT runs?
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Well next time your installing a gate valve ask an Operator what it does and if its a variable valve
He will tell you yeah on On Off.
You just happen to have a set up but you arent controlling the temp and You are only roughly controlling flow
The engine likes cold air into the intake the more Air the better the colder mixed with fuel the better not to run cold temps in the block it likes a constant operating temp.
Don't tell me about what the oil likes I'm down the street from an engine room with blown apart engines and sitting here in Richmond Ca where that oil is made. Its made over here in RLOP Richmond Oil Lube here @ Chevron.
By the way we have a few regulators and gate valves.
Guess which one is variable flow.
guess what flows on the ring inside the block guess what if it likes some heat. the oil how can a person conrtol that emp as steady as possible with a thermostat
How is your pressure controlled when your WOT or cruising How do you even know how do you know what pressure is in your block?
by the way I like Stella Artois :beer:
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Lol at this thread
Make the dump side flow more than the inlet at all times to control pressure, then use a restriction on the inlet to control temp. Use a gate valve, a piece of wooden dowel with a hole in it stuck
In the hose, or pinch the hose with a hose clamp...many ways to do it, they all work fine.
I think the most important thing is to have the dump exiting the hull right next to the driver so you can always have a visual on cooling...if something happens and you lose cooling, you can see it and shut it down before it gets expensive.
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It is funny but How many people have milky oil? How many can't adjust the setup easily to the right ratio? How many people blue the headers? How many people have gasket issues?
Listen to the pipe fitter run ur gate
Or try my way
By the way I'm a High Pressure Process Head Operator. Guess what I do control process to a set pressure and temp. To perform tests on Research units for Catalyst development.
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Okay,
Gate valves are often used when a straight-line flow of fluid and minimum restriction is desired. The gate faces can form a wedge shape or they can be parallel. Gate valves are primarily used to permit or prevent the flow of liquids, but typical gate valves shouldn't be used for regulating flow, unless they are specifically designed for that purpose. Typical gate valves are designed to be fully opened or closed.
Not going to argue that point, but you are talking about valves used in plumbing uses with a very low pressure differential and at near the maximum rated flow. Using a 3/4" full port gate valve when the entering line size is 3/8" and a very high pressure differential it works near perfect. There is a secondary reason to use the gate valve vs. any other valve.
If a ball valve was used, the amount of flow regulation is sketchy. The ball valve has a 90 degree turn from full open to full closed, the gate on the other hand has anywhere from 5 to 10 turns, this allows you to get the pressure reduction you are looking for with a pretty fair amount of adjust-ablility.
I guess you could call the third benefit the safety factor in case you burn a hose or something in the water you can shut it off to keep the boat from visiting Davey Jones...
I am not a fan of gates personally because of the above facts. You like the 99% of boaters have the gate and it works but I like the constant controlled pressure and water flow of my set up. I feel my set up has a fine adjustability. This is how I control my pressure.
A jet pump can only generate so much pressure at idle, so you regulator is 100% open at idle which throws your controlled at all time out the window. That being said, when the pump axillary water port is restricted, it does virtually the same thing, but with no moving parts.
I think you have a normal set up with your system. You have found the right combo with your set up but my opinion it isnt a precise method. I too have a bassett tee that comes on @ 1500RPM and no throttle valve out of the block to build pressure. I have seen gates on the back end Dump to slow the flow to try to reach a temp range in the block and thats where things get messy and people can build pressure in the block. I also think with all the people asking similar questions they are not as expierienced around the motor as you are and may not hit the right combo.
I have always recommended to NEVER install a second control valve of any sort on the dump end.... NOT needed.
I had the gate and had issues now I have this set up no issues. I stongly feel it works precisely and its a set it and forget it system.
Care to expand?
I just happen to like to use that T-stat to reach a desired temp. I dont feel colder is better. I'm also running a mild 460 not a race boat and I'm not in any rivers.
Again, the desired temp is a moving target depending on how the engine is built. Offshore racing engines run stupid cold, we are talking several thousand HP.
Okay my last question. Do you ever adjust the gate on your set up and are you running WOT or a pleasure boat ski tube and every now and then WOT runs?
Nope. Never, the only thing I have ever done is to shut the water off to the headers if looking to see what she will do without the cool exhaust. Otherwise, never go anywhere near the valve.
GT
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Well next time your installing a gate valve ask an Operator what it does and if its a variable valve
Ask him tha same question if the valve is three to five times larger than it needs to be.... ;)
He will tell you yeah on On Off.
And he would be right..... Unless it is used to regulate flow. :o
You just happen to have a set up but you arent controlling the temp and You are only roughly controlling flow
I already stated that the temp will be between 120* and 155*F, that's as good as with a stat. You are just seeing constant temps leaving the block, not necessarily controlling the engine temp better.
The engine likes cold air into the intake the more Air the better the colder mixed with fuel the better not to run cold temps in the block it likes a constant operating temp.
says who? If I could run a drag car at 120* I would be all over that.
Don't tell me about what the oil likes I'm down the street from an engine room with blown apart engines and sitting here in Richmond Ca where that oil is made. Its made over here in RLOP Richmond Oil Lube here @ Chevron.
What does this have to do with anything? Oil likes to be warm enough to keep the water boiled out of it, that's all... Too hot and the viscosity drops off, too cold and it sweats and milks... I don't use petrolium based oils in anything, but that is another thread entirely.
By the way we have a few regulators and gate valves. Guess which one is variable flow.
Technically speaking, all of them, if there is any hint of pressure drop, they reduce flow........
guess what flows on the ring inside the block guess what if it likes some heat. the oil how can a person conrtol that emp as steady as possible with a thermostat
I missed something in there somewhere..
How is your pressure controlled when your WOT or cruising How do you even know how do you know what pressure is in your block?
That's pretty easy, if the headers are coming in before about 1500 RPM, there will be too much pressure.... Much after 1800 RPM it will run hot because of insufficient flow.
by the way I like Stella Artois :beer:
Had one once, pretty good shizzle... I am a micro brew kind of guy, I live right down the street from El Toro Brewery and am a fan of their Poppy Jasper Ale, also dig on Fat Tire, Sierra Nevada Pale Ale and have been known to knock down quite a few Pete's Wicked Ales...
GT
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It is funny but How many people have milky oil? How many can't adjust the setup easily to the right ratio? How many people blue the headers? How many people have gasket issues?
Listen to the pipe fitter run ur gate
Or try my way
By the way I'm a High Pressure Process Head Operator. Guess what I do control process to a set pressure and temp. To perform tests on Research units for Catalyst development.
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I really don't care. I'm just a lowly mechanic that understands basic principles. I never milkshaked my oil, nor did I ever have any cooling issues or blown gaskets. The people that seem to have those problems are the people that over complicate things and don't understand what pressure is.
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Do yourself a favor Google a gate valve. You don't know wtf your talking about.
U don't know shit about motors if u think a performance motor should run at 120*
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Do yourself a favor Google a gate valve. You don't know wtf your talking about.
U don't know shit about motors if u think a performance motor should run at 120*
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Ok, I don't know what I'm talking about....
Been racing and building jet boats since I was a kid....
Built, bought and sold dozens of jet boats over the last 25 or so years, not one of those was equipped with a prv.
The last raceboat we had made in excess of 550 horsepower for hours at a time, ran about 120 degrees at 5,800 rpm and never missed a beat...
So I guess I am just one lucky sob.
Also I guess the tens of thousands of jet boats out there with gate valves are all going to blow an engine because you say your way is the only way.
Works for me. ::)
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if it makes you feel better, you can use a globe valve. But not needed imho..
GT
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000000 000000
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Don't have time to discuss the whys right this minute, but had to comment on the 20 to 30 second thing..... Uhm... No.
I have never, ever, one time seen a jet boat motor take more than two seconds to fill the block and heads, this is why the dump line needs to be wide open. Air leaves the block and heads in a heartbeat.
The thermostat kits are a gimmick and do not ensure anything other than the water leaving the stat housing is warm..
I will expand on this later.
Something you have to know before I come back with a full on response. We have witnessed countless hours of dyno time on high performance engines that disproves almost everything in your post.
Not tying to condescend, just trying to keep the facts on top of the myths.
GT
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Also, if you think heat moves the piston down, then it would be advisable for you to do some reading... Not even close......... ;)
Heat is a by product.
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Nope I said people have issues cause they don't have your knowledge and set it up wrong cause they use those damn gates
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Heat helps oil be slightly less viscous and allows oil to flow easier
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Your still stuck on my thermostat. Look at how many people have asked about the gate valve setup
They aren't sure or experienced about it. That's how they make mistakes and blue headers get milky oil and blow gaskets.
Oh u Google's valves huh yes a globe is a great control valve
Did u Google gates they aren't supposed to regulate or adjust flow. They were used back in the day on these boats we all love but aren't the best
My point was guys still use the gate near the dump I know they shouldn't u do too but they don't. And they need to know why.
Why KS it there to
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Why is it there to control block temp. What does it do jackup block pressure.
By the way why would Boat manufacturing place a gate by the dump why would they try to control temp in the block.
Disregard our difference in opinions on temp the point is people not u GT are inexperienced with gates and the whole setup so the simple solution to this is my setup u can set mine up without even running the damn boat and have it dialed in.
U said yourself it has constant flow under all conditions
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Timinator I missed ur post before. Thank u for giving GT a second opinion on that. NUFF SAID
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Man I wish I had time to respond more in depth.
The globe valve is a great flow control valve, but not without its problems. A gate valve is cheaper, more readily available and easier to clear debris from.
I am not "stuck" on your thermostat, all I have said was that they are not necessary and don't do all you think they do.
Also, as for the comment about constant water flow.... That was a negative, not a positive. Engine load is not constant, so why should water flow? Think about it for a second, say the engine load goes up, so should water flow.... Just like an automotive deal. The water pump is directly connected to the crankshaft.
You guys really need to understand that I am not arguing with you, just saying there is more than one way to skin a cat and I like the simplest methods possible.
If yours happens to work, great. Whatever floats your, well, boat.8)
GT
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Timinator I missed ur post before. Thank u for giving GT a second opinion on that. NUFF SAID
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But that post was over 85% gobbly gook....
I will revisit that I assure you. >:(
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Wow. I'm just a dumb 24yo repair plumber who use to understand the relationship between volume and head pressure but now I think I'm gonna sell my boat and forget all about it.
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Sad to see some respect go out the window on some of these posts. The OP asked for some advice and got plenty of it. And it's just advice, give yours but don't complain when someone else has a different bit to give.
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00000 000000
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If you have a gate valve restricted deal, remove the feed line from the pump, leave the valve set where you run it. Connect a garden hose(standard municipal water pressure here in AZ is 50-60 psi), turn on the hose wide open and see how long it takes the water to flow out of the dump line. TWO seconds? HA! This is why I quit trying to help on the boards. I will go back to helping my paying customers and tech line. TIMINATOR
My white boat (RIP) would take less than 5 seconds from firing it to spit water out of the dump at the driver's gunnel. Water temp measured at the head was 150- 160 running.
But....that must be bullshit because ...eek!! I had a gate valve!
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This is so out of hand. Whats funny is without hard factual proof we could go on forever like this. Fact is many of us run either or. Ive blued my headers but it was from a restriction in my jet intake from lake salad. Lesson learned. Whether whos more right or wrong most of the average joes wont know or care because both work. I totally appreciate the effort you guys have given to express your points but as of now lets say fuck it and agree to disagree and just enjoy ourselves. I really enjoy the help given on this board and would hate to loose anyone's knowledge base over something like this. Standup ideas on both sides, really. But you have to admit turbo is the only way to go. ::)
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My outboard needs a new water pump.
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Just got home from Stockton.
Been wanting to do this for a while now... >:D
A thermostat setup from Rex or the like is the CORRECT and preferred method,
Says who? NONE of the manufacturers seem to think so, that is over a period of almost 40 years.
Let me tell you why a thermostat and the lack of a circulation, automotive style water pump has issues that I can not seem to get passed...
All a thermostat, even the one with the bypass does, is slow the water flow down from the top of the intake manifold. I guess I should ask how this differs from reducing the opening with a valve before the water enters the engine, but I wont.
By reducing the flow out of the manifold in this way, the water has the opportunity to go from the water pump inlet holes, right up the block, out the restrictor holes in the head gasket and out the stat housing. There is nothing to guarantee that there is any water moving in the rear cylinder area of the crankcase. That being said, ever look at the 454 Chevy in your truck or motor home? There is a 5/8" bypass hose on the top of the water pump to the front of the intake manifold UNDER where the stat housing is. Ever wonder why? It is to ensure that water is continuously moving in the engine even with the stat 100% closed.
I have absolutely NO problem with a thermostat kit on an engine with a block mounted water pump. This would actually work killer, especially if you have an automotive spec machined engine.
We have seen idling engines have a temperature difference with an infra red camera with over a 40* difference from the front to the back of the block, this was with a 160* thermostat and the block pressure was about 3#, that water was as close to flash steam as you could get on the rear cylinders of the motor...
a regulator seldom has enough VOLUME to properly cool the engine,
Sorta kinda depends on the size of the regulator does it not? This statement has no factual value what so ever. I will not expand further.
the next best way is to use a bypass regulator, sold at Graingers and is adjustable to 40 psi. Install it after the gate valve, set it at 20 psi max, run the overpressure dump line thru the transom.
Agreed... If you MUST add something unneeded, this is worth doing for some insurance, but will probably be stuck in the closed position when you really need it because they are not designed for brackish water. All of these valves and regulators I see these poor guys running are designed for city or treated water, not the sandy, salty, brackish crap we normally see.
Leave the gate valve wide open. A partially closed gate valve will allow the engine to run warmer, thats true, BUT when you are wide open and you can't watch it, the temp WILL spike hotter.
Noooooo... The temperature while running WFO will drop lower, how the hell would it get hotter with more flow?, they run warmer at idle... (pretty sure I already covered that).
This assumes that you have a reasonable amount of HP.
Again, has little to do with anything as long as the flow rates are even close.
Use 12.8 BTU's per min, per HP (12.8BTU's/min/HP) for gasoline engines.
So, 500 HP X 12.8 btu's X 60 minutes = 384000 BTUH.
Here is a cool little formula.. BTUH= Delta T (F) X GPM X 500 (whereas the 500 is the specific heat of water [1] times the weight of water [8.33#/gal.] times 60 [minutes in an hour]).
So that 500 HP motor needs to cool 348000 BTU's worth of heat (for the most part 1/3 of the heat generated by the fuel).
So lets say you want the motor to run at 130*F.
The lake you mostly run in is approx 60*F.... So now what? well, 348000 = 70*F delta t X GPM X 500... Anyone?
You need approximately 11 GPM of lake water to keep her cool at 500 HP, much less at idle, or 10 HP... A big block Chevy holds about a gallon and a half to two gallons of water, so how much time does it take to shoot water from the dump again?
A partially closed gate valve contributes to cylinder head cracking.
NOTHING you have proposed thus far will work any differently than a partially closed (insert type of valve here)...
Scenario: you just raced somebody, you stop to discuss it, the water in your now hot engine drains back into the lake, your upper block and heads are now empty of water, but still hot. You start back up, stomp the throttle, and the partially closed gate valve prevents the heads from fully filling for about 20-30 seconds,(how long dos it take to fill your radiator?),
First off.......What? Simple physics folks.... When a hot engine shuts down, the water going through the block was leaving at about 120*-130* if done "the old fashioned way"... That being said, when the engine shuts down, how is the water "draining back to the lake"? the engine is cooling off because it is no longer running generating more heat and is "heat soaking", as the water becomes acclimated to the block it will quite soon begin to cool and create a negative, this will keep 90+% of the water in the engine... Your mom ever can anything? what happens when you screw the lid on a hot jar of preserves?
If your engine is taking more that a few seconds to fill with water, especially after a quick shut down, you have more problems than just pressure issues. I have some videos somewhere that I will need to find of boats starting... Not one of them takes more than a few seconds to piss on the guy next to you.
meanwhile your heads are getting hotter, then the nice, cold lake water hits the hot chambers and exhaust seat areas. This is why we often see exhaust seat cracks in jetboat heads, but almost always on engines with partially closed gate valves and over 400 HP.
Calling BS, basically because you said exhaust seat, this is 99% of the time due to something called reversion from too close of lobe separation from somebody trying to use an automotive grind cam in a boat with injected headers...... Your camshaft lobe separation should never be closer than 8* if you are planing injected exhaust, i would rather see you go with 12*, plenty of proven cams out there do achieve this. you can also advance the cam a bit to get the torque numbers a jet requires at the top end of the RPM range.
A cold engine DOES NOT MAKE MORE HP THAN A WARM ENGINE!
Yeah, actually is does.
Unless you have too much timing, bad gas, or an overly rich mixture.
It is because of two of these three that you can make more power with a cold engine.... guess which two?..
Heat moves the piston down, heat moves from a hotter to a colder surface. Cold heads remove more heat, quicker than warm heads. We, and most other race shops, polish or ceramic coat the chambers and pistons on HP motors to decrease or insulate the surface area of the chambers, these both decrease the cooling effect on the burning mixture, and that equals more HP! TIMINATOR
This is so far off, I don't really know exactly where to begin, so here goes...
"Heat moves the piston down," Really? I though it was the act of combustion of a superheated air/fuel charge ignited under extreme compression... Heat is the by product.
"heat moves from a hotter to a colder surface." Hey, you got one right! (sorry, that was just rude... My bad.)
"Cold heads remove more heat, quicker than warm heads." OK. Heat is the root cause of detonation.
"We, and most other race shops, polish or ceramic coat the chambers and pistons on HP motors to decrease or insulate the surface area of the chambers, these both decrease the cooling effect on the burning mixture, and that equals more HP!"
Oooh sorry... NO again. The polishing of the chamber reduces surface area within the combustion chamber keeping the surface heat from getting excessive and keeping a concentrated "flame flower" or "bloom" without creating "hot spots" in the chamber that can cause detonation, a cool head does the same thing... Coating the piston is the same principle. By doing this process you have basically allowed the operator to run a fatter mixture with a tad more timing... Hmmm, take a look above again.
I am not trying to be a shit swizzle stick, but I have a problem when someone posts something on a forum where people are trying to learn something who may or may not know when someone is blowing smoke up their ass...
You can look up anything I have written in this post and will be able to back it up... Not so sure the same can be said of the rest...
Regards
And my humble apologies to the OP, I hope the answer to your original question is hidden in here somewhere.
GT
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......oh...snap....
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......oh...snap....
uh huh
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and i think that covers bout everything lol
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Refer to the 5 rules of discussion. Anyone remember those? #5 It must be worth my time.
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Refer to the 5 rules of discussion. Anyone remember those?
TIMINATOR,
The reason I did what I did is not out of hatred.
Everything I wrote I backed up with information or facts and just want to keep information as straight foreword and correct as possible.
Some of the less experienced guys and gals on here could take some information from these boards as gospel and run with it, if that information is questionable, that's one thing. However if that information is completely incorrect or a sales pitch, be prepared to have it challenged.
I am all ears if you or anybody else can show me where I am, or even could be, incorrect or simply can add a point of view that differs from mine that may help me see your information as factual.
As of right now, you have not done that.
I may have come off as arrogant, for that I truly do apologize, I do still stand by all of the information in the post.
Please accept this as an olive branch and I will attempt to be less opinionated.
I did try to word my post with respect with very few exceptions.
I did the job of power boat Master mechanic in many forms of power boating for over half my life....
To everyone else, sorry for not lying down and keeping my opinions to myself, simply not how I was raised.
I guess that's two beers I owe now.
;)
GT
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This is a great thread and I have learned that the ball valve coming off my pump will be disappearing this weekend and a gate will be taking its place! thanks GT :thumbup:
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I have owned my own Race and performance business for over 40 years, written over 50-60 magazine articles for several Performance car and boat magazines, had a tech column, still write for Industry only magazines, not monthly newsstand stuff. I was guilty of oversimplification in some statements. There is no reason for me to banter semantics with anyone. Refer to my last post: "It must be worth my time."
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I have owned my own Race and performance business for over 40 years, written over 50-60 magazine articles for several Performance car and boat magazines, had a tech column, still write for Industry only magazines, not monthly newsstand stuff. I was guilty of oversimplification in some statements. There is no reason for me to banter semantics with anyone. Refer to my last post: "It must be worth my time."
I will not post in this thread again, but in my defense, "over simplification" and just out right "incorrect information" has too large of a delta for me to let stand.
For anyone else on here, from now forward, I will only point out what is wrong with some information and it will go no further. Didn't mean to single anybody out.
I used to provide feedback for Mercury Marine back in the day for service bulletins and warranty procedures. I helped out Fineline Industries (makers of the Ski Centurion line of boats) with the first few Yamaha powered boats they built.
I came up with a fix for a problem that Yamaha Marine had with their inboard outboard line of marine engines that they struggled with for over two years (a mere lifetime when you consider how many engines they built).
Mercury Marine Master Certified mechanic.
Yamaha Marine Master mechanic.
Johnson, Evinrude, OMC Certified technician
Caterpillar Marine Certified Technician
Foruno (radar) Certified installer
Chrysler Driveablility, fuel injection and passive restrain technician
Certified Welder/med gas
Trane chiller tech
Attempting to achieve an AS in Science. (spare time thing.).
It was worth my time because I am very passionate about doing it right or not at all. If the information is out there, it needs to be correct and concise. Otherwise it's just words.
The reason I joined this forum so many years ago is because there seemed to be some people on here with many of the same interests I had and noticed how many owners were struggling with something so simple. It was always second nature for me.
The only reason I posted my resume' is because you seemed to think it was necessary.
I don't doubt you have a ton of knowledge, that was never the point, you don't need to defend your character to me or anyone else, but these are smart folks on here, you are not going to be able to "phone one in".
Sorry I pooped in the sandbox folks...
Brad, sorry man.. :-\
GT
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Knew this was gonna turn into a cluster fuck. We all lost out now.
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Fu*k it... I'm going Air Cooled
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I don't see this as a loss at all. We all got to know more about a topic that is important to many folks. We got to have reccommendations made from at least two very experienced knowledgable guys. You guys laid out your thoughts in well reasoned and written forms, without much if anything to cloud the issues. You both have had much success with both systems.
Now it is up to "the consumer" to consider the opinions, and make a decision on what is best for him. Thank you for giving people doing new plumbing, the tools to do what works best for them. Plus it shows you both have a little fire in ya, that's what makes life worth living. :beer:
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Google Jim Coffey. He use to work for Berkeley jet he is the best pump builder and he has built many performance engines. Brad from JetBoat Performance recommended him to me a few years back and he's the man. He has info about the water temp/ pressure topic. He showed me now I'm sharing the love so go look it up gather info and before u decided Google "gate valve" you will read Not recommended to regulate flow; not my opinion, its a fact. Anyway look up Jim Coffey water pressure
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This?
http://www.laidbackboatersboard.com/water-line-routing-t33.html (http://www.laidbackboatersboard.com/water-line-routing-t33.html)
http://www.laidbackboatersboard.com/water-line-routing-t33.html (http://www.laidbackboatersboard.com/water-line-routing-t33.html)
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Yeah that's the same info he gave me. I talked to Jim directly and it took a lil while to understand and visualize but top notch setup after understanding and run on my boat.
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How long have you been running the same Tstat? When I was a tech/grease monkey at Toyota years ago all the factory Tstats had a, I guess you could say purge holes in them, made bleeding the coolant system almost a breeze unless you had a original MR2 or that abortion of a van, do you have a purge hole? I really see both sides but I cant wrap my head around a tstat with gritty non-lubricated water, and as far water temp Im not sure I buy too cold a water when its more of a too cold of an oil problem. I will never use a valve before the water dumps thats nuts to me. A gate valve for what we are using it for I dont see a problem either, we are so far from the max working pressure. As long as you reach optimum oil temperature is most important to me. I would also venture to say all the guys running aluminum heads would be the first to say they warped them from starting and stopping in the 55*F river water. Can anyone verify this? Id like to research and see what all the jetskis and waverunners use Im interested. All in all, to me, jet boats are the hotrods of the lake and I dont think there is such a thing as set it and forget it with any aspect of the boat except the trailers-they stay the same. Or do they? Lol. Great topic here.
Last thought here. If you run a tstat and it closes isnt there more of a chance that anything above the stat will develop and an air pocket vs no tstat that forces water so fast there is no chance of air pockets or hot spots? And lets say the tstat fails closed and they do, now you have a huge hot spot somewhere in the engine, yes? But in a car its a sealed system purged of all air so a lockex tstat will ruin your day but might not hurt the engine just short of getting hot.
I say all this in my own words and just am sorta thinking out loud, I am not challenging anyone I too am just interested in learning more.
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Someday Im going to start an historic epic thread like this on plug reading, oil temp, header diameter size, and size of cup holders and how many are needed.
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Just wanted to share on the Berkeley website theres a Water Pressure Relief Set-up with By Pass :thumbup:
It's on Sale ;)
Oh Hi GT JETS
lil humor while I'm here @ work ;)
On a serious NOTE Hope everybody is enjoying the boating season... :beer: :beer: :beer:
Keep the Shiny side up and keep the beers cold
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All it does is relieve excess pressure ;) doesn't control flow homes
How many times you gonna smack a dead ho?
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BEST THREAD EVER :thumbup:
Almost been read 3000 times
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Sorry I tried to read it but it just gave me a head ache. All the pissing and moaning I thought I was reading a thread on a different site. Actually had to check and make sure I was on SCJB site because I rarely see that kind of bickering here. That's what makes this site such a pleasure to be a part of. All of us on this site are here for each other. Lets leave the pissing contest for the other sites. JMPO
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Sorry I tried to read it but it just gave me a head ache. All the pissing and moaning I thought I was reading a thread on a different site. Actually had to check and make sure I was on SCJB site because I rarely see that kind of bickering here. That's what makes this site such a pleasure to be a part of. All of us on this site are here for each other. Lets leave the pissing contest for the other sites. JMPO
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Agreed, but I feel it is necessary to call someone out when the information given is either incomplete or flat out incorrect...
GT
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I will not post in this thread again, but in my defense, "over simplification" and just out right "incorrect information" has too large of a delta for me to let stand.
For anyone else on here, from now forward, I will only point out what is wrong with some information and it will go no further. Didn't mean to single anybody out.
I used to provide feedback for Mercury Marine back in the day for service bulletins and warranty procedures. I helped out Fineline Industries (makers of the Ski Centurion line of boats) with the first few Yamaha powered boats they built.
I came up with a fix for a problem that Yamaha Marine had with their inboard outboard line of marine engines that they struggled with for over two years (a mere lifetime when you consider how many engines they built).
Mercury Marine Master Certified mechanic.
Yamaha Marine Master mechanic.
Johnson, Evinrude, OMC Certified technician
Caterpillar Marine Certified Technician
Foruno (radar) Certified installer
Chrysler Driveablility, fuel injection and passive restrain technician
Certified Welder/med gas
Trane chiller tech
Attempting to achieve an AS in Science. (spare time thing.).
It was worth my time because I am very passionate about doing it right or not at all. If the information is out there, it needs to be correct and concise. Otherwise it's just words.
The reason I joined this forum so many years ago is because there seemed to be some people on here with many of the same interests I had and noticed how many owners were struggling with something so simple. It was always second nature for me.
The only reason I posted my resume' is because you seemed to think it was necessary.
I don't doubt you have a ton of knowledge, that was never the point, you don't need to defend your character to me or anyone else, but these are smart folks on here, you are not going to be able to "phone one in".
Sorry I pooped in the sandbox folks...
Brad, sorry man.. :-
GT
Awesome! Lol you rock GT!!
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Okay so I read this entire thread...my god you fellas are hella passionate!! Lol so why not just put a ron Davis 6 core radiator, a dual 12" electric fan setup and just run plumbing from the jet pump to the headers and put a gate valve in between the pump and headers for flow control?
Meaning, build a motor that is spec'd out somewhere in between a street motor and a marine motor and run a closed loop "automotive style" cooling system?
You'd eliminate the sand in the engine all together and you'd have consistent, variable flow, accurate water pressure. You could run any temp tstat, a modified stat (purge holes), or no stat at all. A radiator cap will control your pressure and you'd have a lot less plumbing to fail.
GT AND jet fever...please share your opinions..im calling you two out because you guys seem to get along best lol
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Okay so I read this entire thread...my god you fellas are hella passionate!! Lol so why not just put a ron Davis 6 core radiator, a dual 12" electric fan setup and just run plumbing from the jet pump to the headers and put a gate valve in between the pump and headers for flow control?
Meaning, build a motor that is spec'd out somewhere in between a street motor and a marine motor and run a closed loop "automotive style" cooling system?
You'd eliminate the sand in the engine all together and you'd have consistent, variable flow, accurate water pressure. You could run any temp tstat, a modified stat (purge holes), or no stat at all. A radiator cap will control your pressure and you'd have a lot less plumbing to fail.
GT AND jet fever...please share your opinions..im calling you two out because you guys seem to get along best lol
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ive always wondered this too. Seems too easy haha
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Right??!? ;-/
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Okay so I read this entire thread...my god you fellas are hella passionate!! Lol so why not just put a ron Davis 6 core radiator, a dual 12" electric fan setup and just run plumbing from the jet pump to the headers and put a gate valve in between the pump and headers for flow control?
Meaning, build a motor that is spec'd out somewhere in between a street motor and a marine motor and run a closed loop "automotive style" cooling system?
You'd eliminate the sand in the engine all together and you'd have consistent, variable flow, accurate water pressure. You could run any temp tstat, a modified stat (purge holes), or no stat at all. A radiator cap will control your pressure and you'd have a lot less plumbing to fail.
GT AND jet fever...please share your opinions..im calling you two out because you guys seem to get along best lol
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You could just run a water to water heat exchanger, that's the proper way to do it. San Juan makes a really nice kit for a 454 for under $900.
The reason the radiator idea hasn't taken off is because of the lack of real estate. A San Juan is only 6" in diameter and about three feet long. You have three of them, one of them has an oil cooler built right into it.
The final set up on the rock dodger had a closed system in it. We dumbed it down a lot from what they normally run and made it as simple as possible, the water was controlled by a valve on the dash because the race boats required two persons in the boat at all times, when we first started in the sport there had to be three.... A driver, a mechanic and a navigator... :screwy: :screwy:
GT
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Ive seen the san Juan setup and it looks like that system uses a pickup either fro the pump or it uses a belt driven auxiliary water pump to feed the san juan...correct me if im wrong but it seems as if it would be very simple to mount a full size automotive radiator and engine driven water pump thus completely separating the jet pump from the engine. From there it seems like one could control the water baffling the headers with much more ease and way less guess work.. my frame or reference is from NASCAR. they run 9000 rpms all day long (most of them lol) on a closed loop system.
I sincerely apologize to the guys that have been using the gate valve system forever but it seems like there is way too much guesswork.. :/
Your turn GT :) lol
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Ive seen the san Juan setup and it looks like that system uses a pickup either fro the pump or it uses a belt driven auxiliary water pump to feed the san juan...correct me if im wrong but it seems as if it would be very simple to mount a full size automotive radiator and engine driven water pump thus completely separating the jet pump from the engine. From there it seems like one could control the water baffling the headers with much more ease and way less guess work.. my frame or reference is from NASCAR. they run 9000 rpms all day long (most of them lol) on a closed loop system.
I sincerely apologize to the guys that have been using the gate valve system forever but it seems like there is way too much guesswork.. :/
Your turn GT :) lol
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Yeah, but that set up would require a huge rebel flag painted on the deck of the boat and I'm just not too hip on the idea of trying to figure out how to place the radiator without having a 40' cruiser.... Besides, if you have a virtually unlimited supply of 50-70*F water, why on earth would you go air cooled? Absolute waste of effort IMHO.
Volley!
GT
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Lol wait, air cooled? I talking about running a closed loop system utilizing antifreeze like any car or truck on the road..
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Tag! :)
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Lol wait, air cooled? I talking about running a closed loop system utilizing antifreeze like any car or truck on the road..
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A car uses a radiator, or water to air heat exchanger... Air cooled... Lets just say the outside ambient temperature is 110*F, the absolute coldest you could EVER get that water is 110*F.... So the engine would get warmer from there. My junk runs at 110* on a 110* day... Do that math. :o
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Not It! :thumbup:
GT
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On the race boat, I liked using the drain holes in the block to feed the water and have water leaving all four corners of the heads... Seemed to really even out the temperatures and keep sand/silt at bay.
GT
Hi GT,
I am really curious about this mod. When you do this, do you open up the block deck surface and the head gaskets? Does the flow through the block flow fore and aft or does it still flow aft, up to the heads, then forward? If the flow is both fore and aft to equalize the temp in the cylinders, how does sufficient flow cool the heads around the center cylinders if the flow enters the block in the lower center, flows forward and back, up into the heads, and out the four corners? If the flow is in through the bottom center of the block, flows aft and up to the heads, and forward to the front corners as it also exits the rear corners; how do the front cylinders cool and is there enough flow to the front of the heads? Do you restrict the water leaving the rear of the heads?
Thank you in advance,
Joe
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Oh no GT is about to go on one of his 3 page explanations haha...Get'em GT!!!!!
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My hat's off to you gt! You have a lot of patience
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I totally thought you were talking about air cooled being porchse or volkswagon..lol I dont know buddy, I still think running a closed loop system would be worth checkin out to me..I dont think youd need a 40' crusier either haha My example would be say like in a 19 or 20' mini cruiser, instead of a dog house cover, one could make a bracket to hold a radiator in place of the engine..youd need like 12-15" clearance , no? tag gt
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*in front of the engine lol not in place..12-15" clearance so you could mount the rad and a set of fans..beck I bet a rear bench could still be put in as well. Do a full setback on the pump and don't use a jetaway. Move the engine back allowing more room...
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I totally thought you were talking about air cooled being porchse or volkswagon..lol I dont know buddy, I still think running a closed loop system would be worth checkin out to me..I dont think youd need a 40' crusier either haha My example would be say like in a 19 or 20' mini cruiser, instead of a dog house cover, one could make a bracket to hold a radiator in place of the engine..youd need like 12-15" clearance , no? tag gt
My point was, why? Why on earth would you one; run a performance engine that hot? and two; go through all the trouble of making an automotive setup work?
It makes no logical sense to me at all...
You crazy... :screwy:
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Hi GT,
I am really curious about this mod. When you do this, do you open up the block deck surface and the head gaskets? Does the flow through the block flow fore and aft or does it still flow aft, up to the heads, then forward? If the flow is both fore and aft to equalize the temp in the cylinders, how does sufficient flow cool the heads around the center cylinders if the flow enters the block in the lower center, flows forward and back, up into the heads, and out the four corners? If the flow is in through the bottom center of the block, flows aft and up to the heads, and forward to the front corners as it also exits the rear corners; how do the front cylinders cool and is there enough flow to the front of the heads? Do you restrict the water leaving the rear of the heads?
Thank you in advance,
Joe
The water flow on that deal was completely vertical. The head gaskets were not modified at all, same 3/16" holes for the water to enter the heads.
There are two water outlets on every big Chevy, small Chevy, big Ford, small Ford head and that include MOPAR also.
The intake manifold blocks off the two rear water ports. We drilled 3/8" pipe ports in the rear of the intake manifold (RPM Air Gap) and used the factory water ports on the front of the intake. It went to a log of sorts with four ports with a valve on all for ports and that went overboard, the valves were drilled so they would not close all the way, yes, they were half inch gate valves... ;) We could balance the water flow out of the engine with the four gate valves to get close to the same temp out of all for corners. It worked great and eliminated the sand trapping issue we were fighting. Low water conditions would fill the block with sand in a virtual heartbeat.
We had to drill and re-thread the block drain holes to 3/8"NPT, that for me was the only sketchy part.
The water entered at the bottom and exited the manifold, no water entered the front of the engine and the thermostat hole was a flat plate with a pressure gauge in it.
GT
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Hi GT,
I am really curious about this mod. When you do this, do you open up the block deck surface and the head gaskets? Does the flow through the block flow fore and aft or does it still flow aft, up to the heads, then forward? If the flow is both fore and aft to equalize the temp in the cylinders, how does sufficient flow cool the heads around the center cylinders if the flow enters the block in the lower center, flows forward and back, up into the heads, and out the four corners? If the flow is in through the bottom center of the block, flows aft and up to the heads, and forward to the front corners as it also exits the rear corners; how do the front cylinders cool and is there enough flow to the front of the heads? Do you restrict the water leaving the rear of the heads?
Thank you in advance,
Joe
Forgot to mention... You are aware that the water ports in the block are wide open from front to rear right? There is NOTHING directing the water through the engine, which is why I am hammering the thermostat deal so hard. The water in the block is not distributed, it simply goes in the front and leaves the front. That is where I have the hard on for these guys saying it's the "only way".. IMHO it's the "wrong way"... There is nothing "routing" the water to the rear cylinders of the heads. Never was.
GT
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Lol GT I just wanted to know if an automotive closed loop cooling system could be ran on a jet boat...I guess really the possibilities are numerous...im not crazy buddy, im just brainstorming ;-) thank you for your insight though GT!! I always enjoy readying your posts :)
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8) yep went air cooled.
Got out my Dremel cut fins around the cylinders running ambiant.
Dont need gate or a tstat
This has been read ALOT and I just want these guys/girls to quit getting blown gaskets or milky oil so I feel like if it was so simple to have a system of anykind it would be less likely to happen but... Seems like theres a few who set the boat up wrong and they pay the price. My issue or argument isnt what to use its just not being used or setup right. May seem easy to u but maybe the ole weekend warrior thinks hey i got her dialed in and next thing u know gots issues.
Anyway the original thread was Water Pressure. I found a way for me on my boat to control mine. Hope u find yours.