SoCal Jet Boats
Tech Talk => Engine Mechanical / Electrical => Topic started by: Datan29 on April 24, 2017, 04:05:45 PM
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Hi guys totally new to this stuff but I understand the logistics of it all. So I bought this boat last year ran it a few times and noticed I had milked the oil, twice.. So I pulled it out tore it down, had block and heads machined put new bearings in it, new intake.had it all Maged and pressure tested. So yesterday was the first time I took it out since the rebuild everything seemed fine til the last part of the day when I pulled the breather on valve cover and noticed a bunch of white muck on the rocker,underside of valve cover, and breather. So I pulled dipstick and there was a slight sign of milk on there. It does however have a slight gas smell, I'm thinking I have the floats set to high. I also noticed that I have a decent amount of blow by and its puking out of breather a little bit. My question is what is going on here? No misfire runs great. Do I have too much oil? I have a stock pan and I put 8.5 quarts in it. I got the temp up to 150 cruising with 50-70 oil psi. I am getting very frustrated at this point because I just rebuilt and same thing occurs. Hopefully someone here can help Holley750dp,stock454'oval port heads,
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Pretty sure stock 454 oil pan only holds 7 quarts with filter.
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What kind or exhaust are you running best to post pictures of what your running and how you have it plumbed up a lot of times with boats it the exhaust that puts water in the oil
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Pretty sure stock 454 oil pan only holds 7 quarts with filter.
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Not sure if this Is a area of debate, I thought stock was 5 quarts with filter.
My boat takes 5, and I think that is to much. I foamed the oil going wot last weekend, saw the pressure drop from 80 plus to 40lbs. Did the same thing puked out the breather
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It could be 5 depending on what it came from. I think the car pans were 5 and the trucks were 7.
My ford 460 had a 5 quart on it which I always thought was small for a jet boat.
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Ok so I have jacketed headers made by xs power. They came with the boat the way the plumbing works is like this, off the pump to ball valve(which is half way open), to a "t" , those two lines then go to where there water pump would be on a car. Then it comes out of thermostat housing (no thermostat) to logs underneath each header. Here are some pics I took today. Let me know if you can see the pictures don't know what I'm doin on iPad.
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Does all of your exit water run through the exhaust? Possibility - When you shut off, water in the exhaust can get in open exhaust valves working its way into the oil. I've experienced this. Change the oil & filter again. You'll be fine with your rebuild. Must find your milking issue.
8.5 quarts in a stock pan seems off, you'll have to figure out what you have. If you had someone do the rebuild, they should know the capacity.
I don't like the ball valve being half closed. I run mine wide open.
Would like a pic from lower showing how the water lines are connected to the headers.
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Yes all the water exits out the exhaust here are some more pictures of plumbing on the exhaust.
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And you f I run the valve wide open, how will the motor get any temp? I thought that you wanted to run about 180 or so at idle. Like I said I don't know much about these boats I come from dirt car racing.
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Yes all the water exits out the exhaust here are some more pictures of plumbing on the exhaust.
Am I reading that correctly? ALL the water exits through the exhaust? No line out the transom?
Those hoses to the headers are weird looking not to mention big looking.
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Yes that is correct All water goes out through exhaust.... Am I missing something? Should there be some sort of bypass or something of that nature. I know a lot of it needs to travel through the headers to cool them and cool the rubber couplings on exhaust.
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Your headers are correct. I think you have to much oil. Drain and refill or drain a little go test it.
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Am I reading that correctly? ALL the water exits through the exhaust? No line out the transom?
Those hoses to the headers are weird looking not to mention big looking.
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I think its because they are water JACKETED not water INJECTED, like Bassets for example. Which is why I don't think his water is getting in through the exhaust. shouldn't be any water in the actual exhaust pipe, just in the jacket area around it (a pipe within a pipe)
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Yes shocker that's where I'm at with the headers..... There should be no way water would come back through. And it's normal to have condensation under valve cover right?
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Yes shocker that's where I'm at with the headers..... There should be no way water would come back through. And it's normal to have condensation under valve cover right?
Some people say a little bit is but...... the only boat I've ever had that did that was my first boat with an Olds and that damn thing CONSTANTLY got water in the oil for various reasons. Maybe your temp is too cool??
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That's what my buddy was sayin... Who races these things all the time, he said I should let it get to 200 at idle and possibly it will evaporate. He also said he sees it all the time with these boats. I don't know what to do I will drain some oil out because it's obviously overfilled, and bring up the temp a little more next time and see what happens.
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That's what my buddy was sayin... Who races these things all the time, he said I should let it get to 200 at idle and possibly it will evaporate. He also said he sees it all the time with these boats. I don't know what to do I will drain some oil out because it's obviously overfilled, and bring up the temp a little more next time and see what happens.
Sounds like a good place to start
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I think its because they are water JACKETED not water INJECTED, like Bassets for example. Which is why I don't think his water is getting in through the exhaust. shouldn't be any water in the actual exhaust pipe, just in the jacket area around it (a pipe within a pipe)
AAAAHHHHHHH.................my stupid Ford brain didn't quite soak in all the information. Lol
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I think its because they are water JACKETED not water INJECTED, like Bassets for example. Which is why I don't think his water is getting in through the exhaust. shouldn't be any water in the actual exhaust pipe, just in the jacket area around it (a pipe within a pipe)
Stupid double post
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And you f I run the valve wide open, how will the motor get any temp? I thought that you wanted to run about 180 or so at idle. Like I said I don't know much about these boats I come from dirt car racing.
Some of us prefer to run cold. My water temp exit never exceeds 150. The clearances inside my motor are set up for this. GT wrote about this a while back and made good sense, I don't remember all of the details. Closing off the water supply restricts the water flow. Possible air pockets inside ... hot spots ...
You definitely have unique headers, pic of the actual water exit would be cool.
Did you take any pics of the milky oil? Too much oil doesn't milk it, water is getting in there somehow.
Good luck with it
If there's a leak between the jacket it could cause this.
We're all guessing based on what we see here and offering our past experiences in the wonderful world of boating.
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Haha I appreciate all of the replies.. "The wonderful world of boating" he says... I'm still wondering how it's getting in there. I can take a few pictures tomorrow of the dip stick and try to get one of inside valve cover. I can't really recall, but I wanna say I didn't notice this issue until I started closing the ball valve off to get temp higher. Which would potentially open a crack somewhere and let more water in. Not sure. Might be a dumb question but anyone every tried to get some block sealer in their somehow?
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My first jet boat many years ago I was told the same thing about closing the valve to raise water temp so I did. Water temp came up, engine felt a bit stronger, then the problem occurred.
In my closed engine compartment 100% of the water exits through the exhaust. Not enough water to cool the exhaust tubes that connect the exhaust to the transom, took about 15 minutes to burn large holes in the tubes. Big problem and expensive pieces of hose, not metal like yours, but less water can cause problems.
I've learned what I know by 1st doing it wrong on many occasions. Your statement about all of this starting when you started to close off the water is where you start.
Yes I do like the phrase "Wonderful world of boating" it's something that I do. Bought my first boat when I was 24, 30 years and 8 boats later I still enjoy. It's simply a never ending expense that I'm happy to pay for. 8)
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Can you post a picture of the jacketed header where it meets the rubber hose and then post a picture of your transom where the exhaust exits?
Jacketed headers on a jet can be a pain in the ass and most times need to exit the transom slightly above the water line. If the exhaust is submerged below the water line and at an idle the exhaust itself can flood quickly with water introducing a large amount of moisture where it doesn't belong. There is so much water introduced into the exhaust on jacketed headers to keep them cool to the touch that ideally you want the water to be introduced to the exhaust stream as close to the transom as possible. This is why many people will have folks like IMCO or Teague run jacketed pipe from the end of the collector all the way to the transom and only introducing the water that's cooling the header back into the exhaust stream at the very farthest point from the motor.
Yes, you want to run the line of raw water coming into the system wide open for maximum cooling effect. To counter the issue of too much water I run a pressure relief for the overboard between the pump and motor. This isn't a system that guys like GT are fond of but on a jacketed setup it helps to counter any reversion issues on jet boats when running jacketed headers but still trying to maximize the cooling effect on the header.
I run jacketed headers with an aggressive cam (.740) and it was a must when being rigged that the exhaust exited just above the water line at idle otherwise milky oil would be an issue. Putting a modern style jacketed header on a boat that utilized the older log style headers isn't always a plug-n-play type scenario.
I'd pull off each exhaust and check the manifold flange where it meets each cylinder for any signs of water reversion such as rust around the head or header. It wouldn't hurt to have the headers pressure checked as well. If those headers are cheaper type jacketed they probably have a steel inner pipe rather than stainless and can be prone to rusting through if the header isn't drained routinely.
I've had my share of challenges with jacketed headers on a jet boat. It's all a pretty basic system but you need to learn their nuances to set them up properly. Your problem is likely something very easy so I'd start at the basics first.
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Rivrrts if he does not have a big cam. Is reversion a common problem? The rise is going to be a bigger air gap than on a snail and log. Also how do people pressure test jacketed headers?
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Ok rvrrts below is the pictures.. One thing I don't understand is.... If it's getting reversion through the headers how the hell does it get in the crankcase without misifire or hydrolock? Is it just pushing past the rings? And yes the exhaust exits below water line.
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Rivrrts if he does not have a big cam. Is reversion a common problem? The rise is going to be a bigger air gap than on a snail and log. Also how do people pressure test jacketed headers?
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Reversion is less common the smaller the cam. There are specs on most any header websites like Rewarder and Bassett giving examples of suggested cam sizes to lessen the chance of reversion. Of course there are ways around everything and lots of different ways to lessen the chance of reversion like introducing water at the transom and water exiting above the water line.
For lack of better terms they check the pressure no different than they would check a gas line. Cap the one end, pressurize the exhaust tube, put a gauge on it and watch to see for any line loss. Places like Lightning and Teague can all check them for you. I'd imagine a reputable exhaust company can do the same.
Ok rvrrts below is the pictures.. One thing I don't understand is.... If it's getting reversion through the headers how the hell does it get in the crankcase without misifire or hydrolock? Is it just pushing past the rings? And yes the exhaust exits below water line.
It doesn't take much water to turn the oil to milk shake. I've seen milk shake from slight condensation under valve covers that burns off rather quickly and returns back to normal with no ill effects.
Water exiting below the water line, especially at idle or shutdown is not ideal. With no way to regulate the system it's not hard to imagine how easily water can become a reversion issue.
Most reversion occurs at shutdown. You'd know how serious the problem was if you had a hydraulic issue but when there is just enough to end up in the pan I'd say it's most likely happening at shutdown, becoming steam, pooling on the piston, and finding itself in the pan. This scenario would explain why you're not experiencing any misfire. Just enough to milkshake the oil.
If you can eliminate the cause being a leaking jacketed header or typical reversion then I'd pull the intake manifold and take a look. You may have an intake gasket issue and water is leaking into the oil valley and down into the pan.
I'm no professional on this deal. Plenty of people on this forum with way more knowledge on the issue than I have but these are the most common places to check in my experiences. Also the easiest for the DIY weekend warriors like ourselves to solve without paying labor to someone that you can easily do yourself.
I didn't read the entire thread but are you running an oil cooler? If so it's also another place water can find its way into the oil system.
The good news is that these boats are fairly basic and it's rarely an overly complicated issue to resolve. Only a few places water is entering the oil but will take checking a few common places and making one check at a time, confirm or deny the culprit, and then move on to the next possible location.
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Ok folks..... I have figured this thing out FINALLY!!!!!!!! My problem was the cheap ass jacketed headers. DO NOT ever buy XS power jacketed headers.. My problem was there was water intrusion through a few of the tubes on the header. I have been fighting this problem for a while now. After a full rebuild and mass confusion it was my damn headers. I pressure tested cooling system all checked out well. Had a slight misfire at idle the last time I took it out, that's when I decided to take off junk headers and have a closer look. I have now purchased imco manifolds with stainless type sa tubes. Took it out yesterday runs bitchin and now I have water psi imagine that! I had to turn the idle down mass because I had I turned up do to water getting in cylinder. Thanks all you folks who have helped me. Hopefully someone can read this and get something out of it.