SoCal Jet Boats
Tech Talk => Engine Mechanical / Electrical => Topic started by: RivRat34 on September 25, 2010, 03:11:40 PM
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I drained the oil out of my BBC 454, and im debating on what oil i should run? I dont know what type of oil did the pervious owner uses in it before. Should I be running thick oil like vr1 20-50?
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There's what, 2400 Members on here? You're likely to get close to that in opinions.
There's many on here that swear by Amsoil, Many more by VR-1 (Off road racing stuff only, particularly if you're running hydraulic or mechanical flat tappets), and a handful of us that I know of that are running the Joe Gibbs stuff. The reason for this stuff is make SURE you're running oils with high zinc content, and I don't care if you're running flat tappets or a full roller motor, run high zinc! The zinc is removed from street oils for emiisions reasons only!!!!
Your choice onto brand, but honestly, I'd run lower viscosity than 20w50, more like the 10w30 or lower if running VR1.
And heres why on a jet boat. This is gonna get long, and I'm sorry and famous for that. Gord and I had an even LONGER conversation about this awhile ago.
Jet boats do NOT see water or oil temps anywhere near street use temps. 160-180 is pretty much on the high side for most of us as far as water temps, my boats don't seem to break the 140 mark usually (Hot/cold out, don't seem to matter, that's the water temp they read). Oil temp I've never measured (Moo will), but Marcsrollin tells me all of his oil temps have been about 50 degrees above that. I'll take his word. Why this is important, and part of the reason why looser clearances are required on marine engines is, that Viscosity is actually a measurement of resistance to a major extent.
The number Before the W is the cold operating temp viscosity and the number after, the "hot" ,or running temp, viscosity. Generally, the broader the range the better, but in our case a little bit different. I've run both Moo and Pickle in both 115* plus weather and 65* minus weather. Water temps VERY reflective of the ambient temps, and oil pressures and water temps remain pretty much constant no matter what. Much like a car engine, where the op temps SHOULD remain somewhat the same in winter and summer if the cooling system and thermostat are in good condition. That's why the 5w30 and 10w30 in extreme swing climates for cold starting and warm-up.
On a jet boat, I am hard pressed to understanding why anyone would run higher cold viscosity oils (The number before the W) or even "gasp" straight weight oils (I've actually been recommended this), like VR1-50. The oil pressure WILL grow, granted, but lets be honest, what is considered adequate oil pressure? If I run normally 45 PSI, given a good solid oil pump, I can easily hit 75 PSI simply by changing the oil involved. Something to think about when buying a craigslist boat. Again, Oil pressure is RESISTANCE in the system. There's too low oil pressure, and there's way too high, IMHO.
Personally, I run 10w30 Joe Gibbs Hot Rod oil. I wish they made a 5w30 or even a 5w20 synthetic, myself, because it is my firm beleif that my boats maintain 65-80 PSI oil pressure due to operating temp, and are not coming anywhere even near to close to the 30W limit of it. Lower viscosity, and slightly lower pressures mean the proper oil is not only getting where it needs to go, but is cycling through the system, and the twin filters, much more often. AND putting less stress on the timing set and oil pump and shaft in the process.
I'll wait for one or more of the engine guru's to chime in with better info or clarity. My info is from my one on one interaction with Pennzoil and Quaker State lab techs I had regularly back in the 80's. BUT, I will state this. I think 50 or so PSI is a target at operating temp on a fresh engine with a lower viscosity oil and a high volume oil pump, regardless of brand or application.
Ray
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All right Ray, :thumbup: ;D
I have not put any oil in yet, been waiting for this. Now I understand more about the oil stuff, I suppose maybe this parts store thought that my jet boat was high performance. So now I am going to grab some 10w30 with zinc that you suggested, correct me if I'm wrong. But as for offroad race trucks, we only use straight 50 normally in average 500 hp small block race motors. Some of them perfer Diesel oil for breakin process. Anyhow, where can i find Joe Gibbs oils?
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Search it on the web.
http://shop.joegibbsracingoil.com/cat-34-1-16/Hot%20Rod%20Oil.htm (http://shop.joegibbsracingoil.com/cat-34-1-16/Hot%20Rod%20Oil.htm)
Shipping is nothing. Use their Break-in Oil first on a fresh motor though, JMO. I still order it on the web, even though Farmergord gets it shipped to him from a local PHX speed shop (That does NOT stock it for me........ :banghead:) and Marcsrollin is keepin it all to himself at his shop in El Cajon........J/K Marc!.........yes, Rotella diesel oil is used a LOT in breaking in engines. In point of fact, its what my diesel pickup uses day to day. Diesels are NOT Hot Rod engines, however. :sly:
Older motor though, honestly, isn't going to benefit much from the buck or better a case. Save the money for a future build or rebuild and use the lowest viscosity VR1 Off Road or Racing traditional. I think you'll be fine and Auto-Zone sells it. Don't want to put the engine into shock, and honestly, I think synthetics results are best realized when run from a fresh motor. Mixing the two can be very bad.
Straight weight oil, in ANY FORM of racing today is a VERY bad idea. I was told the Nascar boys do this recently. It would SHOCK me if true. Refer to the previous post or PM me as to why if it's not apparent. Straight weight oil is ONLY for Generators, compressors, and older farm/construction equipment that operate at the SAME controlled temp and RPM for many many hours at a time......
Ray
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the weight oil i run is relitive to the bearing clearance that i run, larger clearance thicker oil. the crank and rods dont ever touch the bearings so the oil is all you got.
if you dont think that your oil temps match whats in your car, just wait till you put a temp sensor in your pan. i had to switch to synthetic oil because my temps were getting to the 250 range.
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the weight oil i run is relitive to the bearing clearance that i run, larger clearance thicker oil. the crank and rods dont ever touch the bearings so the oil is all you got.
if you dont think that your oil temps match whats in your car, just wait till you put a temp sensor in your pan. i had to switch to synthetic oil because my temps were getting to the 250 range.
That's kindof the info I been looking for Ralph! :thumbup: as I said, No oil temp sensors on my boats in the past. Working off what I been told.
BUT, and I'm asking, you're a mentor to me, is this in the "family boat"? I seem to remember we had a conversation about water temps one weekend as well, and it would amaze me you were seeing those kindof oil temps when your water temp was nowhere near what Moo's was. Would shock me that oil temps exceeded 50% of what water temps read though.
What viscosity were you running? first of all? and what?
And second, and I guess my point in all this, which is late getting to it, is that pressure is important, to force the oil to the oil orifices, travels and galleys, etc instead of the path of least resistance. The balance is control of where it goes. or some semblence of control of where it goes. THAT relates directly to oil temp and viscosity.
You did well illustrate why Moo's first engine failed though, in the clearance end of it, I learned more than something from you about that! ;)
Ray
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:sly: ok you are confusing me now ray.. are you telling me to run the 20w50? or to go with the 10w30?
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There's what, 2400 Members on here? You're likely to get close to that in opinions.
X2400 ;D
I could not ever give a recommendation based on the limited information on you setup...
:sly: ok you are confusing me now ray.. are you telling me to run the 20w50? or to go with the 10w30?
Yes
GT
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yes to both or what? :sly:
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yes to both or what? :sly:
The reason I said "yes" is because both "could" be right. If your internal clearances are "OEM" I would run something in the neighborhood of a 30wt, if it has been built "loose", then I would be looking into something in the 50wt range.
You may consider it a wise move to go with a 10-40 to split the difference. Most automotive machine shops build engines with OEM type clearances, which IMHO are tight for a jet boat application....Mainly do to the temperature fluctuations and RPM, but there are other factors involved.
Whatever oil you choose, try to stick to something similar. I never recommend going synthetic unless your going to stay on it for the life of the engine. Just a little thing I hate to see, the benefits of synthetic can't be realized if your are not consistent with the type of oil.
BTW, too much oil pressure is almost as bad as too little, many will disagree with me and that is OK, but what good can hitting the bypass in the pump and cavitating and foaming the oil? IMO, None...Foam is hard to pump and leads to heat issues, so try to stay below 80 psi at WFO. :thumbup:
Wish I could recommend an all in one oil... :-\
GT
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All right.. I guess I will go with 10w30.. ???
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Ray, what purpose does high zinc oil serve in a roller cam motor?
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the weight oil i run is relitive to the bearing clearance that i run, larger clearance thicker oil. the crank and rods dont ever touch the bearings so the oil is all you got.
if you dont think that your oil temps match whats in your car, just wait till you put a temp sensor in your pan. i had to switch to synthetic oil because my temps were getting to the 250 range.
I had a small block Chevy literally burn all the engine enamel off the oil pan on the very first river jet we built, the paint was rated to 450*F :screwy: The oil smelled like somebody was redoing a roof :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown:
Learned a whole lot since then. :thumbup:
Ray, what purpose does high zinc oil serve in a roller cam motor?
Costs more ;D Duh ;)
GT
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Ray, what purpose does high zinc oil serve in a roller cam motor?
Missed the tail end of this due to work.
Glenn is right on the "depends" part, the synthetic part (Synthetics are great! But need to be run from the word go really, regardless of what the oil manufacturer says), and more info needed part. First thing to know is what the oil pressure ran before the change, but you prolly don't know that.
I'd think you're safer with a 10w30 than a heavier oil myself, and see what pressures build. If it turns out low oil pressure, particularly at temp, then maybe a heavier oil should be considered (Worn or really loose engine). Ralph and Glenn both pointed out oil temp, which is another important factor that I only have direct info from, well now 2, people. Moo's getting an oil temp guage and cooler only because engine oil will be routed through the blower gears as well. With 12 quarts in the thing, I don't forsee an issue with oil temps, but I'm overly cautious with what that boat is about to become.
Main reason I'd run high zinc oils even in a full roller motor is twofold. The zinc Di-whatever it is, has a plating effect on less than perfect or galled surfaces and even pitted surfaces, for one, adding also to rust prevention (It is the primary ingredient to galvanizing) from short to long term storage which all of our boats are victim. Second, it also has a cushioning effect on mating parts adding durability to lifter/cam interfaces and many more. It can't hurt, so why not?
I'm not saying run out and spend $120 a case for oil. VR1 racing oil is cheap, really, given all that we put these jet boats through, and tend to run them from 4000-5000 rpm 90% of the time, their cooling system, etc, etc, your initial question becomes far less "matter of fact" than you think.
Ray
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I would rather see someone run added zinc than any moly....... ;)
Moly, if not soluble, is actually an abrasive.
You will probably be OK with the 10-30, would still consider a 10-40 or even a 15-40 high performance oil....
When I had my shop (several years ago) we primarily used 15w-40. Sometimes 50wt racing....Very seldom lighter than that.
If you were looking for the ultimate oil, I cannot really recommend that, but look into Mobile 1, 0w-40, it may be difficult to find, but good all around "slop counts the same as skill" type deal... :sly:
I can get you some Amsoil if interested. Let me know. :thumbup:
GT
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It is hard to find good oil, so i just picked up some valovine sythenic 10w30s and will see what my pressure stands at.. but first I need to tune the carb, and timing since I installed an new high rise air flow intake and adding scoop on the hood.
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These guys know alot more than I do, but here's what has worked for me.
For the break in, I run the VR-1 10-40 and i'm so paraniod i add some break in oil on top of that.
After the race weekend it gets changed to Lucas 10-40 Stnthetic.
I see temps in the 250 - 260 range, and my oil pressure drops from 75 to 60 by the end of a 5 mi. race.
For the family boat, same thing except the oil doesn't get changed everytime out. One oil change per season.
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it was not every time out..lol.. thanks for heads up, I would have gone for lucas too, but no auto stores here stocks them other than the stablizer thin, and 2 or 4 cycle motorcycle oils only.
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I see your in Ramona. I'm just down the hill from you.
I get Lucas at Kragen/O'Reiley in Escondido.
Lucas breakin oil at HDS Machine Shop.
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Missed the tail end of this due to work.
Glenn is right on the "depends" part,
yep
Synthetics are great! But need to be run from the word go really, regardless of what the oil manufacturer says
Why?
I'd think you're safer with a 10w30 than a heavier oil myself, and see what pressures build. If it turns out low oil pressure, particularly at temp, then maybe a heavier oil should be considered (Worn or really loose engine). Ralph and Glenn both pointed out oil temp, which is another important factor that I only have direct info from, well now 2, people. Moo's getting an oil temp guage and cooler only because engine oil will be routed through the blower gears as well. With 12 quarts in the thing, I don't forsee an issue with oil temps, but I'm overly cautious with what that boat is about to become.
12 quarts can heat up in a hurry.
Main reason I'd run high zinc oils even in a full roller motor is twofold. The zinc Di-whatever it is, has a plating effect on less than perfect or galled surfaces and even pitted surfaces
Most who have the brains to inqure about oil will not assemble an engine with less than perfect, galled, or pitted surfaces....and if they did, all the zinc in the world won't save em. It does, however, reduce friction in proper doses.
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yep
Why?
12 quarts can heat up in a hurry.
Most who have the brains to inqure about oil will not assemble an engine with less than perfect, galled, or pitted surfaces....and if they did, all the zinc in the world won't save em. It does, however, reduce friction in proper doses.
Pat, did someone fart in your Froot Loops? :-\
;D
GT
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Yes, there is such a thing as too much zinc....
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Pat, did someone fart in your Froot Loops? :-\
;D
GT
I don't like fruit loops. I'm a Lucky Charms Man, but not because of the rainbow on the box.
I just like to see all the information and facts to support statements. That's all. Statements without support are opinions...which are fine, but not for a technical discussion about oil. I've done quite a bit of research, but I'm by no means an expert. Everyone has their "thoughts", I'm just trying to see which ones hold water.
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Yes, there is such a thing as too much zinc....
Absolutely!
Hell, here's "proof" ;D
[attachimg=#]
I don't like fruit loops. I'm a Lucky Charms Man, but not because of the rainbow on the box.
I just like to see all the information and facts to support statements. That's all. Statements without support are opinions...which are fine, but not for a technical discussion about oil. I've done quite a bit of research, but I'm by no means an expert. Everyone has their "thoughts", I'm just trying to see which ones hold water.
Yeah, I know...I'm just whippin' your skippy.... ;D
I'm a Boo Berry man myself... :thumbup:
GT
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I see your in Ramona. I'm just down the hill from you.
I get Lucas at Kragen/O'Reiley in Escondido.
Lucas breakin oil at HDS Machine Shop.
yeah yeah.. the one up here orders from that store, i just dont feel like driving that far (10 bucks into gas) just for a few oils.. although they kept forgetting to order them, so i gave up went with what looks good to me, was going to grab purple royal, but i remember somebody said something bad about them a while ago.
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Whatever oil you choose to run has to form a film or cushion of oil to keep the the bearing off the journals. The pressure keeps the oil with that film to do so. If the pressure becomes too low it can't do so and the bearing drags on the journal causing wear. The clearances of the bearings is what determines the viscosity to supply need to form this cushion.
The viscosity of the oil under severe heat is needed to keep this cushion up, so if 15-40 or a 20-50 is used the first number is what is performing the job, the second number is what it does under severe heat and usage to maintain the the job the first number of the oils weight.
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This is what the weight & viscosity on your oil bottle means, period.
Most people are familiar with oil's viscosity rating—10W40, for example. However, very few may know that the "W" refers to "winter," not "weight." And most of us have no idea what the weight-rating numbers actually mean other than that the vehicle's manufacturer specifies a particular viscosity.
Oil Duties
Inside an engine, oil is in a Catch-22 scenario: it has to seal rings and valves, but it also must reduce friction. In simple terms, oil has to accomplish two functions that have directly opposite requirements.
The viscosity of any oil changes with temperature. The higher the temperature, the lower the viscosity—the oil thins out. On the flipside, the lower the temperature, the higher the viscosity. Because of this, the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) has established a series of viscosity classifications that establish oil performance at 100 and 0 degrees Celsius (212 and 32 degrees Fahrenheit, respectively).
Highs & Lows
Low-viscosity oils flow better than high-viscosity ones—the lighter-weight fluid is easier to pump and therefore circulates faster through the engine's various galleries. Low-viscosity oils also maintain a lower oil pressure, but the oil pump delivers a greater volume through the galleries than it would with thicker (higher-viscosity) oils. Heavier oils also tend to operate at higher temperatures because the oil pump has to work harder to force the lubricant through the system. Oil does not compress readily, so the added pressure increases the temperature. In the end, high-viscosity oils maintain a higher oil pressure, but the pump delivers a smaller volume of oil.
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Multigrades
Multigrade oils typically begin as base oils, such as 10W. Then viscosity-index modifiers (polymers) are added in an effort to stabilize the viscosity. This allows a 10W40 oil to flow like a 10W at cold temperatures and a 40W at higher temperatures. In other words, multigrade oils are formulated to pass viscosity tests across a range of weights. For example, 10W30 meets the requirements for 10-weight at cold temperatures and 30-weight at high temps.
The multigrade oils' viscosity modifiers are long-chain molecules that lessen the change of viscosity with temperature variance. In the past, the polymer additives (used to thicken the oil) were sometimes susceptible to viscosity loss. Permanent viscosity loss occurred when high shear forces (such as the relationship between the main bearings and the crankshaft) actually break the polymer molecules into less-effective smaller pieces. On a similar note, temporary viscosity loss also occurred when the polymer molecules aligned themselves in order to create a path of least resistance.
Fortunately, today's additive packages have improved oil's shear-resistance. However, oils with the same rating from different manufacturers can exhibit different viscosity ratings in an operating engine, depending on the shear stability of their viscosity-modifying additives.
For technoids, weights are defined thusly (stokes and centistrokes are measurements of viscosity):
"SAE 30 is SAE 30 no matter what the "W" prefix number is: 0W, 5W or 10W. This viscosity in centistokes (cSt) @ 100 degrees C is with the minimum of 9.3 cSt and a maximum of 12.5 cSt.
"SAE 40 is SAE 40 no matter what the "W" prefix number is: 5W, 10W, 15W or 20W. The viscosity @ 100 degrees C is within the minim of 12.5 cSt and a maximum of 16.3 cSt.
"SAE 50 is SAE 50 no matter what the "W" prefix number is: 5W, 10W, 15W or 25W. The viscosity @ 100 degrees C is within the minimum of 16.3 cSt and a maximum of 21.9 cSt.
"SAE 60 is SAE 60 no matter what the "W" prefix number is: 10W, 15W or 25W. The viscosity @ 100 degrees C is within the minimum of 21.9 cSt and a maximum of 26.1 cSt.
"There is no SAE 70 and no one is likely to make one with a "W" prefix number although it is possible using a synthetic base oil. This viscosity is identified as Grade 70. The viscosity @ 100 degrees C has a minimum of 26.1 cSt and no maximum."
The difference between a multigrade and a singlegrade oil: The singlegrade can't pass the low temperature viscosity test. If it did meet one of the following "W" viscosities, it would be a multigrade.
Singlegrade oils will become obsolete for performance engines in the future. We dropped SAE 30 and SAE 40 because SAE 10W40 does everything 30 or 40 can do—and some things the straight grades can't do—like increasing horsepower. If an off-roader doesn't like 10W40, then use 20W50. It can do everything a 10W40 can do except pass the sub-zero viscosity test at -20 degrees C.
Multigrade viscosities are run at six different sub-zero temperatures. When a racing-oil designer puts a formula together, he has to know the viscosity at 100 degrees C of every component in the additive composition. He has to have a target viscosity objective for the finished oil in each SAE grade. Once a formula is established, the technician who supervises the blending has to duplicate this formula in the correct proportions every time the product is blended. The viscosity at 100 degrees C has a plus or minus written into the oil's quality-control specification.
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Multi-Viscosity
One oil manufacturer claims that "some people in the industry use multi-viscosity as if it means the same thing as multigrade. An oil cannot be multi-viscosity, but it can be multigrade by meeting the viscosity requirements for SAE 30, 40, 50 or 60 and one of the sub-zero "W" viscosity requirements. At one time, some oil companies labeled oils SAE 10W, 20W30—as if the oil could be 10W and 20W at the same time. This is impossible because 10W is measured at -20 degrees C and 20W is measured at -10 degrees C, which eliminates the multi-viscosity theory."
Sorry about the lenght! That is directly from the people who, engineer, test, and rate a lubricants abilities are.
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Salesmen, I asked what the "W " meant on the label. He had no answer he didn't know and this was with a reputable oil distributor.
So what I am reading here are direct quotes from written passages, which is good. The more knowledge the better understanding of oils.
Growing up we were in the transportation business and the knowledge of oils was terrible. We used about everything coming down the pike. In those days they all wore ten gallon hats and criticized every body's product. We learned the hard way we were getting engine changes instead of oil changes. We thought the more expensive was better, not true, the oil not being no detergent was in fact 13% detergent and was ruining our engines. Remember 60 years ago things were different and paraffin oils was getting scarce and asphalt base oil came into the market now synthetic, quite a change. So too really understand what you are using is important. Remembering the most expensive is not necessarily the best for your application. There is a world of difference in engines, two stroke, four stroke,gas powered, diesel powered, propane powered that use all difference base oils. I agree light weight oil flows better returns faster and needs less power distribute the flow, so now the properties in the oil are very important especially in sever conditions.
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WOW........GREAT INFO
My thinking is a little simpler--
DELO 400 15W40
Why? Diesels are not hot rods.
they have 17.5:1 to 22:1 compression, (My boats are 8.99:1, 454 BBC & 9.6:1 SBC) :screwy:
(ever seen a blown or turbo'd diesel?)
Diesels have roller valve train, mine too. :thumbup:
Diesels see extreme cylinder /exhaust temps, 1200* F plus, prolly not on my logs & snails ;D
They also spend a great deal of time at high HP / Torque loads, sound like a boat?
I wouldn't recomend it for a flat tappet cam, but I will not use a flat tappet cam either.
If it works for them, Why not me?
Just my .02
Daniel
Mash on it
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Shell Rotello
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Pretty sure my diesel is flat tappet, and oh yeah its turbo too....hmmm the big thing i have seen is people using diesel oil in their flat tappet cam motors because diesel oil is supposed to have more zinc...well it doesnt....also not very often in my turbo diesel do i see over 3k on the tach....if i do it aint for extended periods of time...the fact of the matter is diesel oil is built for diesels...there are too many other options out there...i would vote no on diesel oil in a boat engine...
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If ya wanna go really fast you should use this kind... ;)
[attachimg=#]
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Nordie...
Pretty sure all the big three are roller cams IH 6.9, 7.3, and 6.0 are as well as GMs 5.7 olds, 6.2, 6.5, and 6.6 d-max, Cummins has used roller since the 1950's. Witch Flat tappet turbo diesel do you have?
My BBC and SBC is all roller and I use Delo 400, always good oil pressure, 2x per year/season oil changes. Synthetic oil in my sbc leaked and used 1/2 qt per trip, with delo it doesnt use any oil and all but stopped the leak (rear main).
Daniel
Mash on it
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Im not a 100% on the roller but still delo is for a diesel...sounds like to me you are bandaiding an issue with a rear main that should be addressed....im not saying your setting yourself up, but i tend to use things on what they are intended for
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talking oil, if you want some science- go here (but please come back and tel us what you learned!)
www.bobistheoilguy.com (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com)
enjoy.
fwiw I went with VR1 racing 10-30. Wish I could run the royal purple just because.... :screwy:
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Also a lot depends on the engine compression the higher the comp ex. 13,14, to 1 the top bearing get squeezed tighter rather than a 8.1 comp. the wear when running a high comp engine the top bearing bears the brunt of wear, like a diesel.
The more the engine is put together the more better oil is necessary.
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Shell Rotello
Very nice clean motor, is that for me as christmas present? lol :D