SoCal Jet Boats

Tech Talk => Engine Mechanical / Electrical => Topic started by: TrailerHo on May 01, 2010, 07:24:47 PM

Title: Which head gasket??
Post by: TrailerHo on May 01, 2010, 07:24:47 PM
So a little background... I have a gen vi 454 with dart heads (pro 1) and is now a full hydrulic roller motor.  I have a jc berkeley pump with nothing special done to it,  guy i bought it from said it was blueprinted but....  i have a banderlog valve now for the headers but no relief valve off the pump.
Problem, put it all together and the damn thing blew a head gasket within 5 mins of being in the water.  there was so much water in the oil it seemed as if the oil was out of place more the water...   :banghead:  I didn't run a pressure regulator off the pump becuase it's a jc and there is nothing built about it.  I put the heads on with the gasket that dart recommended, Felpro 1047 and torqued it down to 70ft lb. 
My question is what head gasket to use?  I understand that the one that dart recommends may be the best but not in this case.  Hopefully someone on here has had some experiance and can point me down the right road. 
Title: Re: Which head gasket??
Post by: Nordie on May 01, 2010, 08:11:28 PM
your problem is alot easier then it seems! your head gasket was probably fine...where you slipped up is not restricting the water coming in from the pump! it doesnt matter what pump it is! you need to balance the water pressure in your block and restrict it! the deal with running a log exhaust is the fact that it goes through the logs and yadda yadda ya...headers seem to change the came a little bit, but nothing impossible!

seems to me that would be your answers and checking water pressure in the block would be pretty important....


on another hand might be time to check the deck on the heads and block!
Title: Re: Which head gasket??
Post by: enginedoctor on May 01, 2010, 08:17:52 PM
nordie... we just talked about this...lover :-*
Title: Re: Which head gasket??
Post by: Nordie on May 01, 2010, 08:19:55 PM
yeah we were talking metal gaskets and quench thickness and some fancy measurments!  ;) i might as well just drop this motor off to you and just not half to worry about it  ;)
Title: Re: Which head gasket??
Post by: enginedoctor on May 01, 2010, 08:28:54 PM
yeah we were talking metal gaskets and quench thickness and some fancy measurments!  ;) i might as well just drop this motor off to you and just not half to worry about it  ;)

No Nordie..I will walk you through it.....did you become my fan on facebook?  A&D  Engines ???
Title: Re: Which head gasket??
Post by: TrailerHo on May 01, 2010, 08:34:11 PM
Thanks for the input..  before putting the heads on, i had the block dipped and decked so 'ideally" that should be good.   My first guess was the pump pressure because it ran fine in the driveway on the hose water, the little pressure that the hose puts out...  and then once I introduced the pump, that's where the problem came in.  so that's why I think it's the pump is putting out too much pressure. 
so i feel I solved that problem, but i'm a rookie so what i am still hestitant on my fixes. 
Still tho, if you can guide me in the direction of which gasket to use, that would be awesome.  The one's that i have do have some cork material or whatever in it and you mentioned steel before.  should i run steel gasket or what's the deal with 'Marine" gaskets??
Title: Re: Which head gasket??
Post by: 76NORDIC on May 01, 2010, 08:56:57 PM
"Marine" gaskets are basically if you are running in the ocean, ie SALT water, for freshwater you can spend the extra money, but is not necessary, just my .02
Title: Re: Which head gasket??
Post by: GT Jets on May 01, 2010, 09:10:15 PM
"Marine" gaskets are basically if you are running in the ocean, ie SALT water, for freshwater you can spend the extra money, but is not necessary, just my .02


WRONG!


Marine head gaskets are not just for salt use....Marine engines do not have the advantage of the anti corrosion protection of anti freeze. Thus making the electrolytic effects of brackish waters left in an engine most detrimental to the survival of the sealing surfaces...

I use brass freeze plugs and marine head gaskets in all boat engines. Cheap insurance IMHO...

A trait that marine gaskets also have is dielectric bonding of the sealing surfaces, this is like a good primer on bare metal on a paint job, it keeps the free iron from being exposed to the gaskets metal, which is how they function to begin with.

This has been a major debate among the boating community for decades, it is my opinion that the only time "standard" gaskets should be used is when the engine is not expected to be together for more than 6 months (read; full race deal)...

Sorry for the harsh intro, I feel strongly about this because I have taken apart literally dozens of engines that could not be salvaged because of the amount of corrosion in the sealing surfaces of the heads and block... :thumbdown:

GT
Title: Re: Which head gasket??
Post by: enginedoctor on May 01, 2010, 09:14:41 PM
Well put  GT....100  percent in agreement.......regular head gaskets are okay if u r/r the sht all the time :thumbup:
Title: Re: Which head gasket??
Post by: GT Jets on May 01, 2010, 09:20:02 PM
Well put  GT....100  percent in agreement.......regular head gaskets are okay if u r/r the sht all the time :thumbup:

Thanks Dave,

FWIW, do not run more than about 20 PSI block pressure at WOT....You should have a gate valve off the pump and a dump line off the engine to correct the problem, done it a lot without incident... :thumbup: :thumbup:

GT
Title: Re: Which head gasket??
Post by: Sanger Pete on May 01, 2010, 09:52:38 PM
Did I hear of a problem with a Gen 6 block and mark IV style heads, and having to do something special to make them work right?
No answers, just a question.
Pete
Title: Re: Which head gasket??
Post by: GT Jets on May 01, 2010, 10:03:28 PM
Did I hear of a problem with a Gen 6 block and mark IV style heads, and having to do something special to make them work right?
No answers, just a question.
Pete

SP,

Really, the only thing I have ever read is about the water ports being in close proximity to the gaskets edge, it can be identified by gasket checking before assembly...

Otherwise, I think block pressure came into play here, but always open to other experiences and observations...That's how we learn..

Anyone? I have not played with a Gen.VI Blowtie before... ;D

GT
Title: Re: Which head gasket??
Post by: enginedoctor on May 01, 2010, 10:14:57 PM
The problem with these blocks is " Bore distortion/core shift"... due to the close prox. of bolt holes etc./tolerance stacking...  ;D...just being brief.
Title: Re: Which head gasket??
Post by: Marcsrollin on May 01, 2010, 10:50:00 PM
Your garden hose puts out more pressure than your jet. I have ALOT of friends who have pressure gauges in the pump and you would be real surprised how LOW the pressure actually is. As long as you don't block off the exit water , your really not gonna build too much pressure unless you are overloading the pump.
Title: Re: Which head gasket??
Post by: Marcsrollin on May 01, 2010, 10:51:52 PM
And being I sell auto parts for a living , the marine fel pro gaskets are made with stainless steel.
Title: Re: Which head gasket??
Post by: enginedoctor on May 01, 2010, 10:57:02 PM
what does  that have to do with the engineering  of the block...marc...  I am talking about Block integrity/core shift /stacking  during/after machining ???
Title: Re: Which head gasket??
Post by: TrailerHo on May 01, 2010, 10:58:10 PM
i don't know about overloading my pump but I read on performancejet.com that a basic pump can generate upto 150 psi..  that is what leads me towards the block pressure also.  
so from the sounds of it, i am going with the pressure relief valve sold by Performance Jet and the "MARINE" felpro gaskets.  Damn, that was an easy $300...  
Title: Re: Which head gasket??
Post by: Marcsrollin on May 01, 2010, 11:15:31 PM
There is no way way your pump will ever make 150 psi!!! Think about it , it gets it's water from the suction side not the pressurized side.


And Dave , my response was not to what you said , but to the over all thread itself.
Title: Re: Which head gasket??
Post by: GT Jets on May 01, 2010, 11:37:24 PM
There is no way way your pump will ever make 150 psi!!! Think about it , it gets it's water from the suction side not the pressurized side.



WRONG AGAIN!!!


The cooling water from a Berkeley comes from the back side of the positive pressure side of the impeller and can generate in excess of 150PSI without even trying....

The water for cooling comes from the centrifugal leftovers of the impeller....

GT
Title: Re: Which head gasket??
Post by: Marcsrollin on May 02, 2010, 12:01:25 AM

WRONG AGAIN!!!


The cooling water from a Berkeley comes from the back side of the positive pressure side of the impeller and can generate in excess of 150PSI without even trying....

The water for cooling comes from the centrifugal leftovers of the impeller....

GT



If it put out 150 psi , you would have a 15 foot stream of water coming out of the overbored dump!  :screwy:
Title: Re: Which head gasket??
Post by: beerjet on May 02, 2010, 01:55:48 AM

If it put out 150 psi , you would have a 15 foot stream of water coming out of the overbored dump!  :screwy:
Not necissarily .
Alot of the pressure is lost in the block.
The over board dump is being pressurized by the pressure in the block and not the pressure from the pump.

-beerjet-
Title: Re: Which head gasket??
Post by: obnoxious001 on May 02, 2010, 09:45:44 AM
Did I hear of a problem with a Gen 6 block and mark IV style heads, and having to do something special to make them work right?
No answers, just a question.
Pete

The Gen 6 was modified by GM to correct cylinder head compatibility issues the Gen 5 blocks had.  Using the proper Gen 6 style gasket should allow MK IV heads to work without issue. 

Also, unless I am wrong a 17040 "marine" gasket is a 1047 in a different package (at least the gaskets are stamped 1047, and 1047's are noted as being "suitable for marine usage)
Title: Re: Which head gasket??
Post by: Marcsrollin on May 02, 2010, 09:51:29 AM

WRONG AGAIN!!!


The cooling water from a Berkeley comes from the back side of the positive pressure side of the impeller and can generate in excess of 150PSI without even trying....

The water for cooling comes from the centrifugal leftovers of the impeller....

GT

Not necissarily .
Alot of the pressure is lost in the block.
The over board dump is being pressurized by the pressure in the block and not the pressure from the pump.

-beerjet-


We have put pressure gauges on on the water inlets on race boats with upwards of 1,000 Hp and on regular mild river cruisers. The race boats put out around 50 psi and the cruisers put out any where from 25 to 30 psi. This is not opinion or hear say!
Title: Re: Which head gasket??
Post by: GT Jets on May 02, 2010, 10:44:07 AM

If it put out 150 psi , you would have a 15 foot stream of water coming out of the overbored dump!  :screwy:

I am not trying to argue with you brother....with a dump line relieving, you can't build the 150 # pressures, with no dump line you will blow the freeze plugs clean out of the block and other crazy things...we ran a 3/8" dump line on the race boat and were reading 70# on the water pressure gauge, went to 1/2" and still had 40#, we ended up using a 3/8 and a 1/2" to get things settled out, this was with a 3/8" inlet restrictor....

GT
Title: Re: Which head gasket??
Post by: GT Jets on May 02, 2010, 11:11:02 AM

We have put pressure gauges on on the water inlets on race boats with upwards of 1,000 Hp and on regular mild river cruisers. The race boats put out around 50 psi and the cruisers put out any where from 25 to 30 psi. This is not opinion or hear say!


FWIW, we had a constant 30# intake pressure at 85 MPH....The relief lines actually sprayed the water out, it was not a stream.

GT
Title: Re: Which head gasket??
Post by: ROMPERSTOMPER on May 02, 2010, 02:42:27 PM
Hey GT. Where is the best place to run a in line water pressure gauge? What kind and where can I find the said gauge. Does any one make a water pressure gauge or do you just run a fuel pressure gauge.

Sorry for the thread jack :o


                                                                                        Thanks Jimmy.
Title: Re: Which head gasket??
Post by: GT Jets on May 02, 2010, 02:51:59 PM
Hey GT. Where is the best place to run a in line water pressure gauge? What kind and where can I find the said gauge. Does any one make a water pressure gauge or do you just run a fuel pressure gauge.

Sorry for the thread jack :o


                                                                                        Thanks Jimmy.


http://www.overtons.com/modperl/product/details.cgi?r=view&i=34805&cID=SHOPPING     :thumbup:

GT
Title: Re: Which head gasket??
Post by: ROMPERSTOMPER on May 02, 2010, 02:57:35 PM
Nice! :o  Thank you.  ;D Oh and where should I mount it. Rite before the inlet to the motor or exit??
Title: Re: Which head gasket??
Post by: Marcsrollin on May 02, 2010, 03:53:12 PM
Or you can get one from any Grangers or McMaster Carr.

Make sure you post up your pressure findings when you get one! ;D
Title: Re: Which head gasket??
Post by: TrailerHo on May 02, 2010, 06:37:52 PM
Yeah... post em' up!  I would run one of those but it's the same price, well a little cheaper, as the relief valve kit.  I may run one in the future but don't see the need now. 
I would think, after the pump and before the motor is where to mount the gauge.   that way you could monitor what's going in. 
Title: Re: Which head gasket??
Post by: GT Jets on May 02, 2010, 06:45:37 PM
I ran ours right at the outlet of the pump, you have to remember, the race boat had an engine mounted water pump and a heat exchanger (this was after the freeze plug incident)... 8)

I would run it on the thermostat housing just to keep it simple.  :thumbup:

GT
Title: Re: Which head gasket??
Post by: electrowoman on May 23, 2010, 09:21:33 AM

WRONG!


Marine head gaskets are not just for salt use....Marine engines do not have the advantage of the anti corrosion protection of anti freeze. Thus making the electrolytic effects of brackish waters left in an engine most detrimental to the survival of the sealing surfaces...

I use brass freeze plugs and marine head gaskets in all boat engines. Cheap insurance IMHO...

A trait that marine gaskets also have is dielectric bonding of the sealing surfaces, this is like a good primer on bare metal on a paint job, it keeps the free iron from being exposed to the gaskets metal, which is how they function to begin with.

This has been a major debate among the boating community for decades, it is my opinion that the only time "standard" gaskets should be used is when the engine is not expected to be together for more than 6 months (read; full race deal)...

Sorry for the harsh intro, I feel strongly about this because I have taken apart literally dozens of engines that could not be salvaged because of the amount of corrosion in the sealing surfaces of the heads and block... :thumbdown:

GT

While I admire your strong opinion I must say I don't fully agree.  I pulled apart a  460 jet after 6 years of use with the felpro gaskets and they were absolutly fine.   Fresh water use in a clean lake.  So yes use the marine gaskets if you want.   But I sure wouldn't worry myself to death about it if I didn't is all I'm saying.
I'd be taking a hard look at that deck job and make darn sure it's square.   Did you chase the threads before you
put your heads on???  I think there is more happening here than water pressure.
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