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Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: Won't rev past 4000
« Reply #25 on: May 26, 2014, 07:33:08 PM »
An 800DP is not necessarily going to richen it up.  You might even lose booster signal and lean it even more.  With a single-plane intake, each cylinder is pulling from all venturi and therefore slower velocity air is flowing through each venturi.  Carbs work by vacuum signal generated by airflow through the venturi.  Making the venturi larger slows that velocity and reduces booster signal.

Is the 800DP going to cost you $$$ or do you already have it?

Just a friendly reminder, free revving your engine outta water is taking life out of your engine and pump.

Regards,

Joe
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"I want to roll with my brother Joe" - Joe Bateman - January 29, 1950 ~ November 27, 2013

GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Won't rev past 4000
« Reply #26 on: May 26, 2014, 07:43:02 PM »
X2, jet up what you have first. Lean can cause your pop. I would step it up two jet sizes and see what happens.
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

capogniracing

  • Karma: +68/-0
Won't rev past 4000
« Reply #27 on: May 26, 2014, 07:43:39 PM »
Found a rebuilt one for $250, and I usually disconnect pump if I'm gonna rev over 3500. I will check jets in carb tomorrow but everyone I'm
Looking at with 383's are running 750's or 800's. I'm just throwing anything I can at it at this point. At this point everything I have done to it at this point hasn't changed total rpms even when it had a flat cam lobe. When I went from a 600 to 650 I actually lost rpms. Needless to say it was a off shelf 650. Not sure what those come with from holley. The 600 I jetted up to 69's


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GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Won't rev past 4000
« Reply #28 on: May 26, 2014, 07:48:08 PM »
Found a rebuilt one for $250, and I usually disconnect pump if I'm gonna rev over 3500. I will check jets in carb tomorrow but everyone I'm
Looking at with 383's are running 750's or 800's. I'm just throwing anything I can at it at this point. At this point everything I have done to it at this point hasn't changed total rpms even when it had a flat cam lobe. When I went from a 600 to 650 I actually lost rpms.


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Gotta have the fuel to support the air, if you raised the CFM capability and did not jet the carburetor to the application, it was a bogus test and should be disregarded.

What most people do not take into account is that the torque curve on a jet is LINEAR. Meaning the faster it spins, the more fuel it will require while the velocity in the boosters is dropping, this means low (numerically) power valve size and larger jets than a car can uses, typically two to three jet steps.

Good luck, IMHO if you slow down you'll go faster... (meaning one step at a time, not four.)  ;)

GT
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

capogniracing

  • Karma: +68/-0
Re: Won't rev past 4000
« Reply #29 on: May 26, 2014, 07:54:10 PM »
Just bought a full jet kit. Gonna try that first lol. Running outta money. Next boat I buy I'm gonna get a test run before purchase.


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capogniracing

  • Karma: +68/-0
Re: Won't rev past 4000
« Reply #30 on: May 26, 2014, 07:56:22 PM »
And thank all you guys for help. Definitely keeping me from going completely insane over this thing.


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Six-Oh-Nine

  • Karma: +28/-0
Re: Won't rev past 4000
« Reply #31 on: May 27, 2014, 12:54:50 PM »
The carb SIZE is really not going to be your problem... a 650 dp is more than capable of supporting a 383 past 5500 rpm... now if you have some ebay special... then perhaps it may be a junker and would be a problem... but two different carbs and the same problem???

Eh... I'd be looking elsewhere.

You did mention you replace the distributor but not the wires... but the wires ohmed ok? Well, that's cool to see if they are cut or breaking down inside... but doesn't tell you if they are leaking anywhere (arcing on headers, crossfiring, etc...) and the condition of the insulator or boots. What size wire you running to the distributor? Typically an HEI is gonna need something along the lines of at least a #12 and you for sure want it getting a full 12v... any resistor wire or ballast resistor... or poor connection... or way too small of a wire... ANYTHING that will cut voltage down, will cause the distributor to not be able to provide enough power to rev under a load. Also... for it to hit a wall at 4k no matter what the change... you sure this thing is getting full throttle? I mean it sounds stupid... but most problems that kick our asses (professional and hobbiest alike) tend to be something downright as stupid and simple as the pedal doesn't go all the way... had a customer a while back all sorts of angry at me about his new motor only going to 4200rpm... as it turns out... and even me spending a while scratching my head as to WTF... the way the cable/linkage/pedal setup was... it only was getting about slightly more than half throttle. How it revs on the trailer has typically little to do with how it's gonna rev under a load... about all reving it on the trailer will tell you is if you have a mechanical problem... and even then, not always.
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capogniracing

  • Karma: +68/-0
Won't rev past 4000
« Reply #32 on: May 27, 2014, 03:01:41 PM »
Carb is brand new 650dp. Pulled it apart to see what it had in in today and jets are 73's and 67's, also has a 6.5 powervalve, #28 squirtters. I did vacumm check at idle and am around 8.5-9 So according to holley need to order a different powervalve. Wire going to distributor is a 10ga. And no resistors at all. And did check throttle linkage and is getting full throttle.


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« Last Edit: May 27, 2014, 03:08:37 PM by capogniracing »
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capogniracing

  • Karma: +68/-0
Won't rev past 4000
« Reply #33 on: May 27, 2014, 03:19:55 PM »
And wires would be the next smart thing to change. And just pulled 600 apart. Has 69's, #5 powervalve and 31 squirter.


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« Last Edit: May 27, 2014, 03:34:31 PM by capogniracing »
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Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: Won't rev past 4000
« Reply #34 on: May 27, 2014, 06:59:04 PM »
So according to holley need to order a different powervalve.

You are going to need to do some testing (on the water) with a vacuum gauge to get the right power valve.  Unless it is blown, leave it at the 6.5 for now.  The power valve is there to open and flow more fuel when you try leg press the go pedal through the hull and the vacuum drops, causing the fuel to stop flowing through the jets until the RPMs catch up.  Select the power valve last.  Drive the boat while checking the vacuum gauge for what point there is a slight hesitation when you mash the throttle.  Then select a power valve accordingly.
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capogniracing

  • Karma: +68/-0
Won't rev past 4000
« Reply #35 on: May 27, 2014, 07:13:08 PM »
Ok will hook a vacumm gauge for this weekends test run. Any suggestions on jets and squirters?? And gonna put new plug wires to try and see if that makes a difference also.


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Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: Won't rev past 4000
« Reply #36 on: May 27, 2014, 07:20:22 PM »
Ok will hook a vacumm gauge for this weekends test run. Any suggestions on jets and squirters?? And gonna put new plug wires to try and see if that makes a difference also.


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I can’t remember what any of the original numbers are anymore.  As for squirters and accelerator pumps, they are pretty close out of the box.  I would start with the original sizes and get your fuel curve (jets/metering plates) right first.  Then work out any hesitation or stumbles after you get it running right.
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capogniracing

  • Karma: +68/-0
Re: Won't rev past 4000
« Reply #37 on: May 27, 2014, 07:31:30 PM »
Ok how many sizes should I go up they are 73s and 67s currently. It was really lean so I would say atleast 2-3 and go from there. Any other suggestions??


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Six-Oh-Nine

  • Karma: +28/-0
Re: Won't rev past 4000
« Reply #38 on: May 27, 2014, 08:04:31 PM »
Carb is brand new 650dp. Pulled it apart to see what it had in in today and jets are 73's and 67's, also has a 6.5 powervalve, #28 squirtters. I did vacumm check at idle and am around 8.5-9 So according to holley need to order a different powervalve. Wire going to distributor is a 10ga. And no resistors at all. And did check throttle linkage and is getting full throttle.


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How do you know it is lean? Plug reading? O2 reading? Etc...? Or just based on the "popping"? 67/73 w/6.5 valves do not seem unreasonable and are more than likely stock depending on what list number the carb is. I'd say they are going to be in the ballpark enough that you are not waaay off or a major problem. As for squirters... more than likely, you'll end up with something along the 31 or 35 range... but in all honesty... you do not need to even begin to worry about that sort of thing... that is a deal where after you get it running right, now let's work on tuning the details sort of thing. What you have is a problem... not a minor tune issue... something is just plain not right. A box stock 650 is gonna work and not cause you to only rev to 4k and pop and fart... it may run dirty... or a little lean... it may not be all it could be as far as tuning... but it's gonna run. I don't know if you've done this... but check your floats... your fuel pressure is AT THE CARB 9 psi running (not pump before the regulator)? For sure check the wires. What size are your fuel lines? Plugs... seems obvious, but new or what? Gap/number/etc..? How do the plugs look after a WOT run (pics if you got them)? What total timing are you running? And when is it full advance? That #10 wire... from the key or relay all the way to the distributor without and stops, detours, or splices along the way? There is going to be something that is obvious and glairing as far as a problem once you figure out what it is... squirter sizes are tree sort of issues... you're looking for a forest issue here.

I don't want to be the bearer of bad news... but your gonna want to exhaust any fuel delivery and ignition possibilities... because the only thing left after that is, mechanical.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2014, 08:08:03 PM by Six-Oh-Nine »
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The Bostick ®

Some people play hard to get, I play hard to want.

capogniracing

  • Karma: +68/-0
Won't rev past 4000
« Reply #39 on: May 27, 2014, 08:31:33 PM »
Plugs reading is my answer for lean. Checked them after I ran her to cove at Elsinore, I did check my floats today and level was really high. Poring out sight holes. Plugs are new and will double check gap on plugs. And will follow wire from distributor and make sure there isn't anything funny going on. I had timing set at 10 and 34 advanced. gonna double check that again tomorrow. And some one said previous possibility of valve springs or valve not closing. Hoping not, but that would be my last resort. And I'm running 3/8 fuel line all the way from tanks to filter to pump to carb. I did order a 4.5 powervalve today and 32 squirters to try out. Trying to get her squared away before Parker float but if not I can run her the way she is to put around.


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« Last Edit: May 27, 2014, 08:38:38 PM by capogniracing »
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GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Won't rev past 4000
« Reply #40 on: May 27, 2014, 09:12:53 PM »
Plugs reading is my answer for lean. Checked them after I ran her to cove at Elsinore, I did check my floats today and level was really high. Poring out sight holes. Plugs are new and will double check gap on plugs. And will follow wire from distributor and make sure there isn't anything funny going on. I had timing set at 10 and 34 advanced. gonna double check that again tomorrow. And some one said previous possibility of valve springs or valve not closing. Hoping not, but that would be my last resort. And I'm running 3/8 fuel line all the way from tanks to filter to pump to carb. I did order a 4.5 powervalve today and 32 squirters to try out. Trying to get her squared away before Parker float but if not I can run her the way she is to put around.


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Order a 3.5 PV...  ;)
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

capogniracing

  • Karma: +68/-0
Re: Won't rev past 4000
« Reply #41 on: May 27, 2014, 09:27:03 PM »
Ha ok I'm gonna have a pretty good assortment once I figure this out.


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Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: Won't rev past 4000
« Reply #42 on: May 27, 2014, 10:57:53 PM »
Run the filter on the pressure side of the pump, not the suction side.  On the suction side can cause the pump to starve and fuel pressure will fluctuate.  Have someone monitor your fuel pressure throughout a run

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Six-Oh-Nine

  • Karma: +28/-0
Re: Won't rev past 4000
« Reply #43 on: May 28, 2014, 11:12:42 AM »
Plugs reading is my answer for lean. Checked them after I ran her to cove at Elsinore, I did check my floats today and level was really high. Poring out sight holes. Plugs are new and will double check gap on plugs. And will follow wire from distributor and make sure there isn't anything funny going on. I had timing set at 10 and 34 advanced. gonna double check that again tomorrow. And some one said previous possibility of valve springs or valve not closing. Hoping not, but that would be my last resort. And I'm running 3/8 fuel line all the way from tanks to filter to pump to carb. I did order a 4.5 powervalve today and 32 squirters to try out. Trying to get her squared away before Parker float but if not I can run her the way she is to put around.


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If you are running the springs that came with the heads new... the eddy hydraulic spring is going to be sufficient for the cam you are running... they are roughly 115-120 on the seat and in the neighborhood of 290-300 at about .500 lift (off the top of my head) Its a generic spring that a BUNCH of cam companies and head manufactures use. So in other words... plenty of spring for the cam and intended rpm range. It is possible you may have a valve not closing, or cam going away, or several other possibilities such as severe valve train harmonics or related issues... and I would for sure not rule any of this out... but it would typically be very obvious as the thing would just plain run like shit all the time... rough idle, noisy valve train, etc... something that would allude to this sort of issue... and other than popping at 4k I do not get the impression from you that is the case.

As for the power valves and squirters... I do appreciate the fact that your willing to try anything at this point... but these are fine tune issues... and you have a big tune problem... much akin to stressing out about a splinter when your leg is cut off. Squirter is going to help/hinder the transition from idle to main circuit when you whack the throttle... if you have a stumble or it falls on it's face when you hit the throttle, then this is the area you make adjustments by either going up or down or squirter and/or accelerator pump size. It does not effect at all, what so ever the rpm range or rich/lean tune of the engine at idle/part/full throttle. As for the power valve... check this out... it is a fine tune/part throttle cruise tuning related issue... you adjust your power valve AFTER you have gotten your WOT tune/jetting set, idle mixture, your timing, and anything else that may affect vacuum at part throttle. Then, and only then, does any adjustment to the power valve have any value... as it provides enrichment under part throttle conditions all the way up to where the main jet takes over. Btw... here is something that may have not been mentioned... even IF you did need a lower than 6.5 power valve (which is doubtful that your gonna need to venture far since that cam is still going to make decent vacuum at cruise rpm)... but lets say you do... and a 5.5, 4.5, 1.5... whatever, is what you actually need... the fact is... the 6.5 would cause it to run RICH not lean as it would be open more often and a lot sooner... a 6.5 takes more vacuum to hold closed (in lean position) than lets say a 4.5. The point is... if you are in fact lean... this is not why. Now a power valve that is too low in relation to the vacuum.. like needing a 10.5 and having a 6.5... will cause a lean condition when in cruise rpm... but the second you whack the throttle and go to WOT... unless you have a super small cam or crazy small carb... something that will create a lot of vacuum even under WOT condition... even then the power valve will open and richen up the system. So... no offense... and truly not trying to be a jerk or anything... I just think you have a bigger problem to sort out before worrying about fine tuning... and if you focus on these things... you're not gonna get anywhere near your bigger problem.

So... personally, if it were me... I'd just keep running down your check list and verify each and every thing is right before tearing into it.

*Compression test? if you have a bad seal... or valve holding open... or cam going to shit... it will appear here.
*Vacuum check? Steady? Bouncing? Dropping? etc... (this actually can tell you quite a bit about the condition of the insides of your engine sealing and running state)
*Verify timing? Steady? Bouncing around? Of course (I hope) you set this w/o the vacuum advance as it doesn't work in a boat.
*Ever check those plug wires? Yes, they may ohm ok... but that doesn't mean they aren't acring somewhere, which WILL act as a rev limiter
*Fuel pressure AT CARB under WOT?
*Tach working properly? Besides not reading or not reading correctly... I have also see where they were shorted out inside and acted like a rev limiter
*Full interrupted 12v to the HEI at all times? having the voltage drop under power will cause ignition issues under load and for sure not allow the engine to rev.
*Plug gap? I'd say with an HEI and moderate compression... a gap of .035ish should be just fine and a reasonable place to start.
*Cap/rotor/module/coil all ok? I believe you said it was new... but have you physically checked all this? I've seen "new" stuff from places like Summit actually been returned items and had bad parts/broken inside... it sucked huge... but they always make it right, after you find the problem.
*As weird as it may seem for me to ask... are you sure your timing mark is correct to TDC? Harmonic balancers can spin... especially 400 external balance outer rings... just a thought. May want to verify this.

Etc...

You're gonna find it... and it's gonna be something that you're gonna go, "REALLY?!?!?" ???

If you were a little closer... I'd say bring it by and we can throw an extra set of eyes on it and see if there is something you've over looked.

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The Bostick ®

Some people play hard to get, I play hard to want.

capogniracing

  • Karma: +68/-0
Won't rev past 4000
« Reply #44 on: May 28, 2014, 11:30:51 AM »
Wow, thanks that is a hell of a check list. Gonna start going down the list and verify everything I can by Saturday. It has to something small. I will keep you informed of what everything is as I go down the list. And thank you for your all the info. Double checking all this something has to get better.


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« Last Edit: May 28, 2014, 11:40:36 AM by capogniracing »
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capogniracing

  • Karma: +68/-0
Re: Won't rev past 4000
« Reply #45 on: May 28, 2014, 10:38:39 PM »
Ok ask stupid as this sounds and I'm sure its a way over looked item, I went to switch around the lines from tanks to filter to pump to carb "don't know why previous owner had it that way" and changed it to above statement from flusher, tanks to pump to filter to carb and went to turn the key on and what happens........ The bottom of the damn filter started blowing holes through it cause it is now pressured. Wtf... Can't believe I over looked it. Bottom of filter is rusted out. I am hoping and praying that this was the problem for hitting a wall. Needless to say I bought boat and found out it had a flat cam and did burn up one coil, so boat did have other problems, can't wait to take it out and see if this was it. But on upside I know most everything about the motor minus bottom end.


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93_ultra

  • Karma: +2/-0
Re: Won't rev past 4000
« Reply #46 on: May 28, 2014, 11:58:31 PM »
Ok ask stupid as this sounds and I'm sure its a way over looked item, I went to switch around the lines from tanks to filter to pump to carb "don't know why previous owner had it that way" and changed it to above statement from flusher, tanks to pump to filter to carb and went to turn the key on and what happens........ The bottom of the damn filter started blowing holes through it cause it is now pressured. Wtf... Can't believe I over looked it. Bottom of filter is rusted out. I am hoping and praying that this was the problem for hitting a wall. Needless to say I bought boat and found out it had a flat cam and did burn up one coil, so boat did have other problems, can't wait to take it out and see if this was it. But on upside I know most everything about the motor minus bottom end.


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👍 hope it works out for ya!

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Ckaz21

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Re: Won't rev past 4000
« Reply #47 on: June 01, 2014, 03:22:10 PM »
Well did that take care of it?


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capogniracing

  • Karma: +68/-0
Re: Won't rev past 4000
« Reply #48 on: June 01, 2014, 07:38:11 PM »
No just got back from Elsinore. Didn't change anything even tried a different inline filter. Fuel pressure is 9 at wot. Timing is good, plugs are good checked plug gaps. Changed plug wires. Even tried a lil jetting and got it up to 4200 a couple times. Runs strong to 4000. Only thing I can think of now is valve train. Thinking it would be good to just get heads checked out.


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1975_Challenger_461

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Re: Won't rev past 4000
« Reply #49 on: June 01, 2014, 07:47:00 PM »
Are the valves too tight?

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