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Hello, I have a project boat. I am going to replace the stringers in. The boat is very light, and I would like to add as much strength as possible. I am looking for information, past experience, and knowledge on vacuum bagging. Pro’s and con’s. I am also interested in use of carbon fiber in the process. Any and all information would be great. Thanks for your time.
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I don't know how much you do or don't know , if you're talking vacuum bagging you're prolly beyond me. But fwiw I'd check into west systems epoxy, and also consider making a jig to hold the stringers in place while things cure. What ever you do, don't use generic resin from home depot. :o :sly:
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Thanks for the imput. I was thinking, I'm going to vacuum bag the stringers then install them into the boat with vacuum. Thanks for your time, schick
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just curious....why are you replacing the stringers in the boat? are they rotted?
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They are badly delaminated. I believe the two outer stringers are rotted, they flex in a radius when you push on them. If that makes sense.
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Curious, how are you engineering the new stringers. Have you figured out a laminate schedule that gives you the strength and stiffness you need or are you winging it?
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I’m still working on the process, trying to collect information. I have an idea of what I’m going to do, but haven’t had any one tell me if it’s right or wrong. I haven’t had much input at all, which is kind of scaring me.
I have a friend who owns a boat repair shop, he use to race a alcohol drag boat called Hydrophobia. I’ll have him look it over.
The big concern I have is, if the stringers are super stiff and rigid, when the boat flexes, if the stringers do not will they separate from each other, (stringers away from the boat). This is my concern about using carbon fiber. If you ARE looking for the stringers to be super stiff and rigid then this should not be a problem. I’m still looking for the answer.
I was thinking wet lay-up the stringers, and vacuum bag as many times as needed. Then after fitting the stringers to the boat, wet lay-up and vacuum bag them into the hull, as many times as needed.
Any and all input appreciated. Thanks, schick
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I know this sounds like a lot of work but you could rig up some kind of fixture that would test the deflection of a wood/glass stringer by putting a load on it like setting the ends up on blocks and hanging a bunch of weights at mid span ( test it with the stringer upside down too) and measure how much the stringer flexes with additional weight. Then as you are building up your CF stringer test it the same way slowly building up the weight and the laminations until it equals the deflection curve of the wood stringer. Weigh the two and see how much you save in weight. Interesting backyard engineering project!
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what type of boat you working on
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When I replaced my 1.5" wide wood stringers I said "nothing organic below the floor" so I used twin 1" wide surfboard foam laminated together with West sys epoxy to make a 2" wide stringer. I used jigs and clamps to hold them in place and shaved their bottoms to follow the contour of the hull reasonably close (but there was still a gap). Then I tack glassed them in a few places like every 3' and after that cured I ran blue tape the along the inboard side along their length to form a dam. Then I poured west epoxy resin on the outboard side (uphill) and it ran down hill into the tape dam. I kept doing this until it filled the gap between the bottom of my stringer and the inside skin of the hull. That was my "weld" between the stringer and the hull.
Then I used bondo to make a nice smooth fillet along both sides of the stringer/hull corners. Then 2-3 layers of cloth tape and resin. Then 2 layers of glass over the entire sides and top of the stringers & also over the tape area too.
All of this was pure out of my ass with no calculations but worried about the same thing you are. I knew I had to have some flex but not too much and not too little.
I'm only 1 summer into the McGuyvered stringers but so far so good. However I am just a mellow water skiier and showoff, not a drag boat.
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The information I have is it's a Liberty custom sprint . This particular hull has no HIN (hull identification number). I was told this is because it was made only to race requiring on CF numbers to gain access to public waterways. Made between 1976-79. It’s a four-stringer boat, made to circle race. The hull weights 490 lbs. with no gear in it. If I can answer any other questions, please ask. schick
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The information I have is it's a Liberty custom sprint . This particular hull has no HIN (hull identification number). I was told this is because it was made only to race requiring on CF numbers to gain access to public waterways. Made between 1976-79. It’s a four-stringer boat, made to circle race. The hull weights 490 lbs. with no gear in it. If I can answer any other questions, please ask. schick
did you get this boat from jim rich
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if you look closely on the back it looks like hin # filled in on the back boat was a registered az boat for awhile i had this boat for awhile
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Ralph, I bought the boat from Jim Brock.
78cole, I’m looking for more information, and history on the boat, can you help? Why did you sell? Was there any rigging in the boat when you sold it? If this is the same hull, how or why was it sunk? What caused the deck to delaminate? Any information is appreciated. schick
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Ralph, I bought the boat from Jim Brock.
78cole, I’m looking for more information, and history on the boat, can you help? Why did you sell? Was there any rigging in the boat when you sold it? If this is the same hull, how or why was it sunk? What caused the deck to delaminate? Any information is appreciated. schick
he got it from jim rich, any way lets see some pics
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boat got sunk at a lake in phx. area delamned cause 1. he was supposedly hauling ass 2. it stayed there for a month or so i was told till the guy got it back up boat used to have a really bitchen adjustable loader and jim did a good job of striping the rest omar has the fin from it not sure were the plates made it off to
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I was told that the boat was rigged for drag racing originally .
-beerjet-
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who told you that jim ::)
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who told you that jim ::)
A guy who built the liberty's for a while .
-beerjet-
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who then
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why would they put 4 stringers in a drag hull
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why would they put 4 stringers in a drag hull
Because it's paper thin . Not to mention there is no wood in the floor .
-beerjet-
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wood in the floor is old old school my son paper thin with additional support = circle boat/ paper thin no addtional support=throw away drag boat
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wood in the floor is old old school my son paper thin with additional support = circle boat/ paper thin no addtional support=throw away drag boat
What do you want me to tell you , I wasnt building them . He could be confused about how his statemnet came out . Besides , 98% of the boats I've seen that were set up for endurance racing do not have four stringers .
Wood in the floor is old school ??? of course it is but people still do it that way . I haven't seen a new circle boat made with four stringers in , I dont know . forever ???
Kind of makes you wonder why Joey Cucci didnt built the "Splash" with four stringers and no wood in the floor , what about the "douces wild" What about every single Liberty I've ever seen . This one to me was odity as far Liberty's go . Super cool . Just never seen a liberty built like that . I wonder which guys built it and what there explanation is for this set-up.
BTW , is your motor still spitting oil at you ??? ;D
-beerjet-
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motor only spit oil during it's maiden voyage i fu@#ed up the front seal when i put it togetherhows your motor doing get it ready for your race boat :sly: what boat has wood in the floor non of the decucci boats do and thats my point super light weight boat for drag racing would only need 2 small stringers not 4 thats why it had 4
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See the brown shit on the bottom . Thats called wood :banghead: :mad: . I realize there are no trees in bumfuckintopac but thats wood , in a D'cucci not four stringers !
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/cpg/albums/4-19-08/IMG_0592.jpg)
more of that weird brown stuff in the bilge area :screwy: Yet no outter stringers :screwy:
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/cpg/albums/userpics/10002/IMG_3763.jpg)
"Splash" or aka "Crash" that weekend , Another D'cucci , wood floor , 2 stringer light as they come circle boat .
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/cpg/albums/4-21-07/IMG_1641.jpg)
There is no doubt in my mind that the 4 stringer Liberty was built as a circle boat . Thats not what I was told is all . Maybe as thin as that boat is , thats the better way to go . My Saguaro had flex that at times made me nervous . When I went for a ride in Brads boat , flex was taken to a hole new level for me . Thats what it takes to make a competative boat , a potatoe chip .
I can only hope some one who knows what they are talking about will set me straight on whether or not there is a diffrence in the 2 methods of boat building . F.A.G ;)
-beerjet-
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I had a Central Marine Renegade a 1976. I weighted 350 lbs with no rigging. It buckled almost the same way. I didn't loose the flap on the bow, but it split the seam a foot from the bow forward on the driver side around to passenger seat. Spun the boat, threw the passenger out, he was ok, and broke 3 ribs on the driver who stayed in the boat. Glad I had insurance. I stripped the rigging and sold the hull. The boat was repaired and resides in Oraville area. schick
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Liberty picture
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The file is big from my camera. Here's another. The boat is on the lawn while the trailer is being weighted.
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Lets see the deck ;D
-beerjet-
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wood you say, that shit is balsa and paper thin, does nothing for the strength of the boat. my .02
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Omar that was supposed to be your next race boat :D
J/K ::) I even thought about picking it up, but then i remembered (sp) how long my project thread is now :screwy:
Four stringers is cool though ;)
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look at the real floor no wood buddy im gonna smack some white common sense into you in jan ps love you omar
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Jeremie,
this thread is for VACUUM bagging, that leaves you out of it since all you know is TEA BAGGING (at least that's what Brad told me)
See you in January
With Love
Skip
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The information I have is it's a Liberty custom sprint . This particular hull has no HIN (hull identification number). I was told this is because it was made only to race requiring on CF numbers to gain access to public waterways. Made between 1976-79. It’s a four-stringer boat, made to circle race. The hull weights 490 lbs. with no gear in it. If I can answer any other questions, please ask. schick
That thing weighed 490lbs? Wow, I remember me and my buddy picked it up by ourselves, with no problems, did you weigh it or was told that weight? Just curious
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I remember Liberty's factory drag boat. They layed up a real light one and added the extra stringers to stiffen it up. It was blue too but I thought it was painted. Jeff Yelton drove it since he was the lightest guy in the shop willing to drive it. Jeff Bennett would know about this boat.
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I remember Liberty's factory drag boat. They layed up a real light one and added the extra stringers to stiffen it up. It was blue too ......
You dont say , I really wish someone would have mentioned this earlier (https://www.socaljetboats.com/cpg/albums/userpics/10034/idea_2.gif)
-beerjet-
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I remember Liberty's factory drag boat. They layed up a real light one and added the extra stringers to stiffen it up. It was blue too but I thought it was painted. Jeff Yelton drove it since he was the lightest guy in the shop willing to drive it. Jeff Bennett would know about this boat.
Do you remember who was building them at that time ?
-beerjet-
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I weighted the hull. That's why the boat is laying on my lawn. I want to know what I'm dealing with. I have my engines dyno'd also. I'm not one of these guys that say "my engine makes around 800hp". I know what I make. Most people are full of sh%t. I perfer to have the specifics, have been GPSin equipment since the units were $500.00.
Anywhy I got my vacuum pump, and some of the supplies to vacuum bag with. I start my vacation the 18th of Dec. so hope to start the project this year. Still need to make dollie to hold the hull while changing the stringers. Clean the garage, for space to work, ect..
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How did you weigh it?
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I drove the truck, trailer, and boat across a truck scale, drove to my house 2 miles away, slid the boat off the trailer, went back to the scale, weighted the truck, and trailer, subtracted the weight of the second ticket from the first and Walla 490lbs. This is the only way I know how to weigh’em without lots of equipment, (fork lift, scale, straps, ect....)
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How did you weigh it?
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi223.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fdd269%2F2savage4you%2F10scale.jpg&hash=cd7ee9600c445bbac3dcff202cedb8633f70a62e)
::) ;D
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(https://www.socaljetboats.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi223.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fdd269%2F2savage4you%2F10scale.jpg&hash=cd7ee9600c445bbac3dcff202cedb8633f70a62e)
::) ;D
I haven't seen one of those since high school when I used to ::) ...........
-beerjet-
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I drove the truck, trailer, and boat across a truck scale, drove to my house 2 miles away, slid the boat off the trailer, went back to the scale, weighted the truck, and trailer, subtracted the weight of the second ticket from the first and Walla 490lbs. This is the only way I know how to weigh’em without lots of equipment, (fork lift, scale, straps, ect....)
Hmmm that could be the error. I've had those things show differences of over 500lbs at times (just looking at empty vehicle weight). Picking that thing up let's you know it's not 490lbs lol
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I'll look for a more accurate means to measure, and repost the weight. Do you think more or less?
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Where are you located?
If you make a dolly to set the hull on I have a set of Longacre electronic scales that we can set up and weigh it.
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I appreciate the offer, but I live in Manteca, which is about 60 miles south of Sacramento.
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I'll look for a more accurate means to measure, and repost the weight. Do you think more or less?
I wouldn't think over 200lbs in my opinion, my buddy and I picked it up no problem. What do you think Jeremy?
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I appreciate the offer, but I live in Manteca, which is about 60 miles south of Sacramento.
Yea, that is a little far for a quick trip.
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I really appreciate the gesture, that’s very generous to offer the equipment use and your time. Thank You
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Between 76-79 boats were layed up by Bennett I think. Jeff was our crew chief and my room mate at that time. By the fact that your boat is gel coated tends to make me think that it might be a bit newer than that. If it is the factory drag boat the no HIN # makes sence. The fact that it only took two guys also sounds like the old drag boat. 490# sounds heavy though back in the day circle boats under 800# were considered light weight. As you restrengthen the boat be on the lookout for further delaminations. If it is the drag boat it was never intended to last this long.
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well when i spoke with jack McClure about the boat i was told the liberty was byfar a suppior boat but really heavy so the had one lightened up and when we weighed it it was 390 lbs on a set a scales for a open wheel car that are legit they have to be and to put 4 stringer in a drag boat sounds dumb to me also in a v-bottom theres not much stress in the outer area at a 1/4 mile run
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Just talked to Jeff. He came on the site and looked at the boat. He doesn't think he did it. Especially due to the graphic design and the black bottom and chines. He thought that it's a latter boat than the ones he layed up. He believes it might actually be an Eliminator. They bought the molds when Liberty closed the doors. Not too many Eliminator Liberty 19's out there. We both agreed that the turn fin slot shown on the interior pix would indicate NOT a drag boat. and Jeff thought that the weight is about right if it was done by Eliminator. Hope this helps but I'm afraid it probably mucks up the water even more.
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BTW when replacing the stringers I would remove one and replace it then do the next, then the next. If you take them all out at the same time it will be very difficult to keep the boat straight.
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Hey Guys thanks for the info. I found some old scales at work. They use to use them for weighting the volume of 2 ton chlorine tanks. The scales have a hydraulic pad, and dial face. My only concern is the scale goes form 0-8000lbs. I know scales are the most accurate in the middle of the range. So I don’t if this will be more accurate. I think I be able to weight this weekend.
That’s what I am going to do with the stringer replacement. I’m going to remove the glass from the top of the stringer one at a time, leaving the glass sides, install new wood, vacuum bag it into the old slot.
Thanks again for all the input. Please ask any questions if what I post is not clear. I post another picture when I get a chance to take one, and the weight. schick
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good luck and definatley keep the pics coming ;D
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Tried to weight the hull, the scales would not repeat any measurement, took 160 lbs. of weight along for accuracy could not get the scales to read the same twice. Here are a few pictures of the bow.
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Another bow pic. If you look close there is hi and lows
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There not coming out very well., I'll post on more.
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Sooooooo I rolled up to my friends house today and I see him sirring around in his garage .
I printed out the picture of your liberty sitting in the yard and I keep it my truck in hopes that I see him .
I pulled over and I showed it to him .
I also printed out the picture of deck but for some odd reason my brain cant grab it off my desk and throw it in the truck with the other one.
Anyways , I showed him the picture of the boat sitting on your lawn .
First word out of his mouth were . "It's Phils old boat ."
Then he asked me some other specifics I couldnt remember .
I sent him the picture of the deck so he could verify if he built it or not .
He also mentioned that they built the Drag boats really light and put four stringers to stiffen it up like Tom mentioned .
He also said he only built one boat that was capped . The others were 70's boats .
I thought it looked like the boat had a rub rail on it at one point but couldnt rememeber for sure .
I think he said 79 - 86 were the the years he was building them .
Then sold to Eliminator .
Good luck , sounds like a sweet find .
-beerjet-
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Thanks Beerjet for staying on the hunt for information. I appreciate your interest in my project. What did he mean by “only one boat that was capped”? By looking inside I don’t see any holes from a preexisting rub rail.
Haven’t done anything to the boat or garage. I found termites while setting up my new entertainment center and TV. I have to move everything away from the walls in my garage 2 feet, so they can drill and inject termador in the floor. Them I can get moving forward. Ordered a scale, and a heater should be here Mon. Then I can weight the boat, and heat the garage to lay glass. Hope your xmas was Whell. Thanks again for your time. schick
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No sweat , I think when you can trace a boats history back to when it was built and the owners , especially with liberty's pedigree, and any accomplishments there might have been , that makes the boat that much cooler 8)
He said that when he was building Liberty's , they only capped one boat . I forget who did the cap but it took 2 weeks to do and that was just too much for him .
Jeff Bennet probably being a much more experienced glass guy , did a whole bunch more .
As it turns out , it wasnt built by Lightning , probably one of Bennets boats .
-beerjet-
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I tried to post this once 20 minutes ago, so if it shows up twice, I apologize in advance.
Well, I bought a donor boat (really just for the trailer). I originally thought I would salvage what I could, and toss the rest in the dumpster. But when I got home I considered removing the top from the Eliminator and installing it on the Liberty bottom, (could call it a Liberinator) Rather than repairing just the deck on the Liberty. The few measurements I took by my self the contours are pretty close. Does anyone have any suggestions, or has this been done before? I was thinking cut the two at the rub rail seam, then recap the one back at the rub rail?
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Look up masochist in the mirror, err, um I mean the dictionary ;)
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Scrap the Liberty and build the donor boat ;)
Or just bring it out to me ;D
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I tried to post this once 20 minutes ago, so if it shows up twice, I apologize in advance.
Well, I bought a donor boat (really just for the trailer). I originally thought I would salvage what I could, and toss the rest in the dumpster. But when I got home I considered removing the top from the Eliminator and installing it on the Liberty bottom, (could call it a Liberinator) Rather than repairing just the deck on the Liberty. The few measurements I took by my self the contours are pretty close. Does anyone have any suggestions, or has this been done before? I was thinking cut the two at the rub rail seam, then recap the one back at the rub rail?
Forgive me if this is a retarded response to your question ???, Why don't you just build the eliminator? Your liberty seems like it has a list of fatal injuries as long as your arm (delamination is a hard fix) it almost sounds to me like there was a layup problem in the origional build, just my opinion without seeing the hull first hand. I am not one to back down from a challenge, but this seems huge to me...
Is this Liberty something special enough to spent so much time building?? Something I have done is to put a value on my time, then figure what kind of time comitment I am looing at. Sometimes it's a little eye opening...I don't think the deck replacement would be worth the trouble/time, mainly for two reasons, you still have a major stringer job ahead of you (could have mixed results) and the amount of fitting and shaping and so on is huge, also if the Liberty is something you want to build because of "what it is", it won't be any longer (I hope that made sense)...
You could always double stringer the Eliminator and build a one off that would have more personal accomplishment than the Liberty, look at proppy's boat project...How cool would it be to have the only open floored quad 1" Mohogony stringered Eliminator? :sly:
Just my opinion, hope you're not offended...
GT
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I agree with GT.
I think you might have a basket case ahead of you, a woman with alot of skeletons..
Sorry brad for posting this. But ???
http://www.e-performancemarine.com/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=467
Isnt that your hull ::)
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I’m not offended. I wouldn’t ask if I wasn’t able to take the criticism. I knew some one would say that. The reason I’m interested in the Liberty is the weight. I have no ties the brand at all. From what I have read and seen here they are fast, and these are heavier hulls (not to offend). I’m looking for a project, a diamond in the ruff. I knew what I was getting into when I purchased the hull. I’m looking for a hobby, if there was a money concern, or a time issue it would be something like a job. Not to sound harsh or offended. I appreciate your opinion, that’s why I asked. There are a lot of people that have years and years of experience that I’m hoping they will share.
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My biggest concern would be how to get this badboy dead nuts straight, the deck looks wishy washy, the stringers are failing, I dont know... BTW was Hydrophobic (race boat) owned by Glen at Pleasure boat? (Known him for 20+years...).
I also think the carbon fiber would be a mistake, its not very forgiving and you would probably find the different stages of rigidity will give you a lot of grief, (would look cool though...)
Is the deck on the Liberty flexible? It looks from the picks like it's copletely separated, the best method I have ever seen for fixing that type of damage is vacuum bagging like you're trying to do, I have some freinds that hang on the PB boards (vee drivers) that have done some amazing things with fiberglass and vacuum bagging, (they have recently put an entire corner on a cole and fixed a delaminated bottom on a Hondo)..
Hit em up with a pm, they may be able to get you pointed in the right direction...78HondoGT and Lefty (they are brothers...) Known them both for years and there dad lives one block from me, which is where all the work happens...
I want to wish you the best of luck, looking forward to seeing what you come up with...BTW thank you for taking the glutton crown from me, you are wayyyy more ambitious than I... :D
GT
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Yes, If you've been around boating, you know Glen, or Glen knows you. Haven’t had a chance run it buy his shop, it’s 70 miles from me now.
I hate to admit it but I am a glutton for punishment. Not to blow my own horn, but I’m a pretty clever guy when it comes to getting things done. I see it as a challenge. Something that I haven’t done before, I enjoy the learning curve. What I do for a living doesn’t stimulate me mentally. So I have this project to fulfill that section of gratification. The thing I have learned is, I enjoy the hunt for parts, and the satisfaction of the build almost as much as running them.
Everyone I know is looking at me like I’ve lost my mind, epically my wife. But it is what it is.
GT thanks for hanging with me, we glutton's should stick together. schick
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I had a chance to weight the Liberty hull today. I bough a scale from Harbor Freight, read to 440lbs. The needle on the index went past the zero by 10lbs. There was a gap between 440 and zero, this gap was equal to 20lbs. I guess the first time it was weight it was fairly accurate, this scale 470lb the other scale 490lb. I think it’s safe to say a 500lb hull.
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Anyone have a idea of what this is? The picture is from infront of the bulkhead, under the bow. It yellow and looklike Kevlar. I have never seen it in a boat that wasen't geled or painted over. It runs from the transom to three feet short of the bow, between the center two stringers. From the bulkhead back to the transom it just looks like aged fiberglass, has a yellow tint to it. Only under the bow can you see that it's the material in the fiberglass is that color. Thanks, schick
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looks like imatation balsa/ yoga mat ???