Post by: GROSSpolluter on September 27, 2017, 04:05:30 PM
Post by: 76Challenger on September 27, 2017, 04:19:36 PM
I have a Carrera 205 elite. stock 330hp 454 berk jg with diverter, 51mph is what it does now. Im wanting to do a set back to mainly get the cleanout on the outside because I suck up weeds just about everytime I go out and flood the boat clearing it. I know the intake has to be pulled and I need some transom rot repaired as well. so might as well do a shoe/ride plate while im at it. is there any down side to doing a set back in a larger boat? it seem like its good all around but not much info. more interior room, clean out is on the outside. only draw back is $$ and a lot of work that I can see or does anyone have any bad experience as in ruining their boat doing it and having to go back the way it was?This is why I like my E pump 👍
1977 Challenger
Post by: Jered503 on September 27, 2017, 09:50:35 PM
Post by: mash on it on September 28, 2017, 08:26:05 AM
And no, its not an 'insert' pump, like a JE, but an American Turbine.
Dan'l
Post by: GROSSpolluter on September 28, 2017, 08:43:59 AM
Outlaw Eagle's 21's are full set-back from the factory, so there must be something to it.
And no, its not an 'insert' pump, like a JE, but an American Turbine.
Dan'l
I noticed all the ultras are set up like that as well. im 92% sure its the same hull they just used a different deck.
Post by: greg511 on September 28, 2017, 03:12:20 PM
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Post by: 76Challenger on September 28, 2017, 04:42:42 PM
I have a Carrera 205 elite. stock 330hp 454 berk jg with diverter, 51mph is what it does now. Im wanting to do a set back to mainly get the cleanout on the outside because I suck up weeds just about everytime I go out and flood the boat clearing it. I know the intake has to be pulled and I need some transom rot repaired as well. so might as well do a shoe/ride plate while im at it. is there any down side to doing a set back in a larger boat? it seem like its good all around but not much info. more interior room, clean out is on the outside. only draw back is $$ and a lot of work that I can see or does anyone have any bad experience as in ruining their boat doing it and having to go back the way it was?I would talk to Tom at Jet Boat Performance in Atascadro he can lay out all the pros and cons for you and be very helpful
1977 Challenger
Post by: greg511 on September 29, 2017, 06:12:47 AM
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Post by: GROSSpolluter on September 29, 2017, 08:45:18 AM
Keep us posted if you do it. I have an 87 Carrara 20.5 I was thinking of doing the same thing too.
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will do, just need to find time. probably happen in the next 3 or 4 weeks. need to pull the motor first and have a couple things I want to do there as well. as for the pump this is what im thinking.
shoe / ride plate
full rebuild
inducer
loader
new A impeller
droop snoot
powder coat everything white
not sure if im missing anything else.
Post by: Flusher on September 29, 2017, 01:13:16 PM
An important question to ask is, how does it ride right now? Before you go moving everything around, determine what the boat wants. A setback will help develop more lift. Most likely, you could use more lift.
With a 20.5' V-bottom boat, there is a lot of weight everywhere. Bow riders have even more weight up front. I don't think that moving the engine forward would be really beneficial. horsepower does play a role. It's a balancing act to dry out the hull without inducing a porpoise. You can however relocate the battery etc. to accomplish the same weight distribution if needed. Look around and see what you can move.
For engine placement, I would mount the engine so that the oil pan sump is just in front of the of the pump intake and run a slightly longer drive shaft or install a Jet-A-Away with your original drive line.
Yes, there are a few negatives to running a setback. Foremost is the rigidity of the hull when the intake cutout is cut through the transom. This mostly is dependent on how/where you boat. If you anticipate navigating rough water on holiday weekends, the boat will take a beating. It is this flexing of the hull that will cause the intake epoxy to crack prematurely. If you can live with that and resetting the intake more frequently, it's a non-issue.
A minor issue is that a setback intake might suck air and unload during hard turns. This can be accommodated for with driving technique.
How far you can set the intake back depends on several factors that all need to be taken into consideration simultaneously. Your main priority is getting the hand hole cover outside of the transom. Therefore the angle of the transom will play a large role in where the intake ends up.
Where does your preliminary location place the intake bolts? Do you have to shift the intake fore/aft for bolt location so that there is sufficient material around the bolt hole to install the intake bolts? Do any of the intake or suction bolts interfere with fabricating transom plates?
Sometimes, once all of the above falls into place, you may find it incredibly difficult to seal the transom plates around the intake, between the hull flange and suction flange. You might have to make a little block of aluminum to fill this void.
While trying to meet all of the above criteria, you want to try to place the intake so the back surface of the shoe is approximately 1.0"-1.25" back from the transom.
Once you get the location of the intake, the hole in the fiberglass needs to be closed off. I try to taper the glass so there is a flat across the front of the cutout. I blend this into the radius of the keel. I do this so the epoxy is not crazy thick at the very front of the intake.
After the intake is set, you need to blend in the transition between the fiberglass and the aluminum intake so there is a smooth elliptical radius that will appear transparent to the water as it loads the pump. If you don't do a nice job blending the intake opening, the setback is all for nought.
Good luck,
Joe
Post by: Flusher on September 29, 2017, 01:26:29 PM
will do, just need to find time. probably happen in the next 3 or 4 weeks. need to pull the motor first and have a couple things I want to do there as well. as for the pump this is what im thinking.You might benefit from a mini-droop. You may not have enough horsepower to take advantage of the full droop. I would try one before you buy.
shoe / ride plate
full rebuild
inducer
loader
new A impeller
droop snoot
powder coat everything white
not sure if im missing anything else.
I consider a loader a must have item.
Definitely add a shoe and ride plate while you have the intake out. Start with the ride plate angle, relative to keel, at 4-degrees.
A good front side impeller detail would be a night and day difference.
I don't see any mention of a diverter.
Post by: GROSSpolluter on September 29, 2017, 03:59:17 PM
You might benefit from a mini-droop. You may not have enough horsepower to take advantage of the full droop. I would try one before you buy.
I consider a loader a must have item.
Definitely add a shoe and ride plate while you have the intake out. Start with the ride plate angle, relative to keel, at 4-degrees.
A good front side impeller detail would be a night and day difference.
I don't see any mention of a diverter.
place diverter is already on the boat with a manual control. On the 2nd to highest setting it does porpoise on occasion. when I have a boat full of people it does ride wet and only does 46mph vs 51mph with just me and my girl. I do see a lot of rough water on the lake and weekends in parker with the big wakeboard boats plowing.
Post by: placecraft jess on September 29, 2017, 04:13:50 PM
place diverter is already on the boat with a manual control. On the 2nd to highest setting it does porpoise on occasion. when I have a boat full of people it does ride wet and only does 46mph vs 51mph with just me and my girl. I do see a lot of rough water on the lake and weekends in parker with the big wakeboard boats plowing.Where in Parker do you stay we’re at Casel rock
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Post by: GROSSpolluter on September 29, 2017, 05:19:57 PM
Where in Parker do you stay we’re at Casel rock
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Sometimes Bluewater and rio Colorado at my buddys place.
Post by: Flusher on September 29, 2017, 08:08:24 PM
place diverter is already on the boat with a manual control. On the 2nd to highest setting it does porpoise on occasion. when I have a boat full of people it does ride wet and only does 46mph vs 51mph with just me and my girl. I do see a lot of rough water on the lake and weekends in parker with the big wakeboard boats plowing.Couple more questions:
If you look under the boat, where the shoe would be on the intake, how far is it from the rear suface of the shoe to the transom? If you can move the intake back >=2" and still have an inch of glass to bond the intake to, it might be worth doing a setback. You can remove the wood on the transom, just behind the intake, to gain more room.
What kind of boater are you?
An out of sight, out of mind kind of guy who doesn't inspect anything?
OR
Your bilge is spotless and everything works perfectly or is repaired post haste?
Maybe you are a set it and forget it kind of guy who wants the install to last the life of the boat.
I was thinking more along the lines of regularly being out in white caps or catching air. Use that really gives the boat a beating. Occasional large wakes can be delt with via driver technique.
If you keep an eye on it, it should be okay. Just understand that you might need to reset the intake. The life expectancy depends on the abuse it is subjected to.
It makes sense, if you really want a setback, to do it "while its out." Those three little words, can be devastating. While it's out, mess with everything! A setback is a huge can of worms.
I would like to say, don't underestimate what you can accomplish with just hardware.
Post by: GROSSpolluter on September 29, 2017, 09:20:27 PM
Couple more questions:
If you look under the boat, where the shoe would be on the intake, how far is it from the rear suface of the shoe to the transom? If you can move the intake back >=2" and still have an inch of glass to bond the intake to, it might be worth doing a setback. You can remove the wood on the transom, just behind the intake, to gain more room.
What kind of boater are you?
An out of sight, out of mind kind of guy who doesn't inspect anything?
OR
Your bilge is spotless and everything works perfectly or is repaired post haste?
Maybe you are a set it and forget it kind of guy who wants the install to last the life of the boat.
I was thinking more along the lines of regularly being out in white caps or catching air. Use that really gives the boat a beating. Occasional large wakes can be delt with via driver technique.
If you keep an eye on it, it should be okay. Just understand that you might need to reset the intake. The life expectancy depends on the abuse it is subjected to.
It makes sense, if you really want a setback, to do it "while its out." Those three little words, can be devastating. While it's out, mess with everything! A setback is a huge can of worms.
I would like to say, don't underestimate what you can accomplish with just hardware.
I'll try to answer everything as best as I can, I am a boat mech for a living. Just never really messed with jets as all my work is ocean stuff, inboards and sterndrives. So that being said yes everything works on my boat and is spotless for the most part. I don't beat the shit out of it and drive it with in mind if I break it I have to fix it. I haven't measured but I'm thinking I have a good 8 inches from the back of the intake to the edge of the transom so I could move it back and still leave a 2inch strip of glass on the transom. I do want to do as much as I can while it's out but I also don't want to spend 10k on a 12k boat that does 50mph I would just say screw it, throw beer cans in it run it till it dies.
Post by: Flusher on September 30, 2017, 11:32:58 PM
I'll try to answer everything as best as I can, I am a boat mech for a living. Just never really messed with jets as all my work is ocean stuff, inboards and sterndrives. So that being said yes everything works on my boat and is spotless for the most part. I don't beat the shit out of it and drive it with in mind if I break it I have to fix it. I haven't measured but I'm thinking I have a good 8 inches from the back of the intake to the edge of the transom so I could move it back and still leave a 2inch strip of glass on the transom. I do want to do as much as I can while it's out but I also don't want to spend 10k on a 12k boat that does 50mph I would just say screw it, throw beer cans in it run it till it dies.
Awesome! A full setback isn't for everyone, but it sounds like you could handle it, no problem.
Do you want to do most or all of the work yourself?
What are you planning for engine mounting? Rail kit? Reuse your existing mounts? If so, what type of mounts?
Do you want to move the engine?
When you get the transom adapter off, measure to see how much you need to move the intake back to get the hand hole cover completely outside of the transom. Compare that measurement to the glass between the intake and transom. For the intake to be installed 8" forward of the transom is highly unusual, but not entirely unprecedented.
Cheers,
Joe
Post by: GROSSpolluter on October 01, 2017, 12:13:28 AM
Awesome! A full setback isn't for everyone, but it sounds like you could handle it, no problem.
Do you want to do most or all of the work yourself?
What are you planning for engine mounting? Rail kit? Reuse your existing mounts? If so, what type of mounts?
Do you want to move the engine?
When you get the transom adapter off, measure to see how much you need to move the intake back to get the hand hole cover completely outside of the transom. Compare that measurement to the glass between the intake and transom. For the intake to be installed 8" forward of the transom is highly unusual, but not entirely unprecedented.
Cheers,
Joe
I'm thinking I'll do pretty much everything but the glass work. Probably re use the old motor mounts to keep the cost down unless I pull the motor and the mounts fall appart. A rail kit would be nice. I measured the clean out to transom and I'll need 4-5 inches to get it flush with the outside of the transom. So hopefully I can just move the whole intake back 1 hole 2 holes would for sure do it. I was under the boat looking and right before the intake the hull has a V and the some type of hook and goes flat hopefully the glass shop can blend that better. The thing I see being a PITA is making a transom plate to cover the hole around the pump.
Post by: Flusher on October 01, 2017, 12:51:02 AM
I'm thinking I'll do pretty much everything but the glass work. Probably re use the old motor mounts to keep the cost down unless I pull the motor and the mounts fall appart. A rail kit would be nice. I measured the clean out to transom and I'll need 4-5 inches to get it flush with the outside of the transom. So hopefully I can just move the whole intake back 1 hole 2 holes would for sure do it. I was under the boat looking and right before the intake the hull has a V and the some type of hook and goes flat hopefully the glass shop can blend that better. The thing I see being a PITA is making a transom plate to cover the hole around the pump.Can you post up some pictures of the keel, in front and in back of the intake?
The transom plates are a pain. We typically do a 3-plate setup. One 1/4" plate mounts to the original transom cover holes and has a hole just large enough to get the suction housing in and out. This plate would have the hole(s) for the steering cable(s), for hydraulic diverter line bulkhead fittings, and reverse/diverter cables as necessary.
Two smaller 1/16" removable plates seal to each side of the suction housing. It's easier to make left and right plates.
It might be necessary to make a fourth plate or even a box to seal around the hand hole cover. I have always wanted to try a concave plate, to get away from this box, but it will be a lot of fabricating and/or machining.