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Sicaz66

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Hot rod open bow.pump build questions😜...
« on: May 06, 2015, 06:26:05 PM »
Here's the deal.. Just picked up a new hull. 21' open bow placecraft sport. Dropping my fresh built BOSTICK RACING 489( dynoed around 650hp 650tq) as soon as I get the new DCB interior done. All I will have left to do is the pump,rigging and stereo.( got the rigging and stereo covered). My deal is what to do with pump. What I have available are berk JG and an older(1994) American turbine pump.what should I go with??? Both pumps are stock and I have 2 place diverters.( one manual,one hydraulic). Have a budget of $4000 for just the pump.which will include: stainless impeller,inducer,powder coat,etc. let's hear what you guys would do...( may squeeze a lil NOS on her to bump the HP up to 850 at times..😎😉).....
« Last Edit: May 07, 2015, 08:11:55 AM by Sicaz66 »
  • Boat #1: 2001 placecraft sport cruiser( laid up by rpm).
  • Boat #2: 26' Blackman billfisher,fish machine.
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jimpen

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Re: Hot rod open bow.pump build questions😜...
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2015, 09:40:19 PM »
B1 racing talk to Chris you will be happy you did.


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GT Jets

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Re: Hot rod open bow.pump build questions😜...
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2015, 09:46:21 PM »
What model American Turbine?

It's my opinion that the American Turbine is a superior pump.

There are more reasons than that but more importantly , what intake is in the hull? You can quickly eat up some budget on the swap.

GT
« Last Edit: May 06, 2015, 09:59:00 PM by GT Jets »
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

roost

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Re: Hot rod open bow.pump build questions😜...
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2015, 09:50:27 PM »
Consider that if you have aluminum "A" impellers, you're tempting fate at that HP. My 545 prompted me to have another pump built with a AA Aggressor magbronze impeller. Take the time and spend the money to do it right.
  • Boat #1: 1986 Commander Sunstreaker 21 open bow
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Sicaz66

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Re: Hot rod open bow.pump build questions😜...
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2015, 07:57:25 AM »
Pump is the original At-309 from 1994. Intake in boat is a Berkeley. I am understanding both pumps will bolt to it. Stainless impeller already in the plan. I already have both pumps.
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Second Chance

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Re: Hot rod open bow.pump build questions😜...
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2015, 05:44:26 PM »
What Jim said !!!


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Sicaz66

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Re: Hot rod open bow.pump build questions😜...
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2015, 07:57:57 PM »
Put the call in to MPD.jack says. Berk housing better than the AT, JG bowl will be fine with work. AT shaft good to go but rather just get a new one.than tear into the AT pump,so building the berk pump. Will get stainless impeller,inducer,stage 2.5 build. With a loader grate and diverter.the  AT bowl is better when stock, he told me no need to change bowl even when I said I can get a dominater bowl,or swap to the AT bowl.AT pump is superior..when.stock.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2015, 08:01:37 PM by Sicaz66 »
  • Boat #1: 2001 placecraft sport cruiser( laid up by rpm).
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GT Jets

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Re: Hot rod open bow.pump build questions😜...
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2015, 08:22:55 PM »
Just going to say it out loud  to make me feel better. Lol

So Jack says a Berkeley can be modified enough to be better than the American Turbine, which has been engineered and designed nearly forty years after the Berkeley?

That surprises the living crap out of me. Seriously.

Not trying to disagree, I'm just a little shocked.

GT
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

Sicaz66

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hot rod open bow.pump build questions😜...
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2015, 08:27:28 PM »
Same here .  :P  he told me to just build the berk with the AT shaft...thought the AT would be the choice??? ???
  • Boat #1: 2001 placecraft sport cruiser( laid up by rpm).
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roost

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Re: Hot rod open bow.pump build questions😜...
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2015, 09:32:54 AM »
Same here .  :P  he told me to just build the berk with the AT shaft...thought the AT would be the choice??? ???
What features specifically do you feel make the AT a better candidate than the Berk?
  • Boat #1: 1986 Commander Sunstreaker 21 open bow
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GT Jets

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Re: Hot rod open bow.pump build questions😜...
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2015, 11:09:33 AM »
What features specifically do you feel make the AT a better candidate than the Berk?

I know you weren't asking me,  but I wanted to throw a dime on a dish.

The only reason I would have thought AT is because of the research and development on the Berkeley is going on 50 years old. They have barely changed anything at all in that time. You would have thought that some tweaks here and there would have taken place to stay on top of the market. They are using some of the same tooling from the '60's. This allowed the aftermarket to gain a foothold on parts for these pumps. Seems insane to me.

The American Turbine has been engineered from the Berkeley platform and has been able to take advantage of the trial and error from other manufacturers. (Berkeley, Dominator, Jacuzzi, Panther, Scott, Hamilton, Castoldi, Eagle etc.). That seems like a huge advantage to me.

Not to mention better, more refined manufacturing techniques and materials than Berkeley ever had available.

I feel the American Turbine would be the better choice. Especially since you already have one.

Not saying I would swap a Berkeley out for an AT, just saying it should stand to reason that it's a slightly better platform.

I could be missing something.

GT

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  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

roost

  • Karma: +10/-0
Re: Hot rod open bow.pump build questions😜...
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2015, 12:06:55 PM »
I know you weren't asking me,  but I wanted to throw a dime on a dish.

The only reason I would have thought AT is because of the research and development on the Berkeley is going on 50 years old. They have barely changed anything at all in that time. You would have thought that some tweaks here and there would have taken place to stay on top of the market. They are using some of the same tooling from the '60's. This allowed the aftermarket to gain a foothold on parts for these pumps. Seems insane to me.

The American Turbine has been engineered from the Berkeley platform and has been able to take advantage of the trial and error from other manufacturers. (Berkeley, Dominator, Jacuzzi, Panther, Scott, Hamilton, Castoldi, Eagle etc.). That seems like a huge advantage to me.

Not to mention better, more refined manufacturing techniques and materials than Berkeley ever had available.

I feel the American Turbine would be the better choice. Especially since you already have one.

Not saying I would swap a Berkeley out for an AT, just saying it should stand to reason that it's a slightly better platform.

I could be missing something.

GT

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Oops, sorry. Should have been a reply to your post. While generally, manufacturing processes have improved over the years, I don't know that the casting process is necessarily superior to the "old days". The interchangeability of parts between the 2 would lead me to believe there isn't a vastly superior design as well. The pumps I've had and housing designs I've seen appear to be quite similar with the exception of the Dominator. When I think of one with an overwhelming advantage over another, I think of one having a superior alloy, and/or casting thickness, markedly better flow characteristics, or design strength. My surprise in Jack preferring the Berk is that  apparently no OTHER manufacturer has significantly improved the pump in the last 40+ years.
  • Boat #1: 1986 Commander Sunstreaker 21 open bow
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GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Hot rod open bow.pump build questions😜...
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2015, 01:02:06 PM »
Oops, sorry. Should have been a reply to your post. While generally, manufacturing processes have improved over the years, I don't know that the casting process is necessarily superior to the "old days". The interchangeability of parts between the 2 would lead me to believe there isn't a vastly superior design as well. The pumps I've had and housing designs I've seen appear to be quite similar with the exception of the Dominator. When I think of one with an overwhelming advantage over another, I think of one having a superior alloy, and/or casting thickness, markedly better flow characteristics, or design strength. My surprise in Jack preferring the Berk is that  apparently no OTHER manufacturer has significantly improved the pump in the last 40+ years.

Interesting.

The AT309 is very much the same dimensionally as a 12JG Berkeley.

I feel the Bowl is simply a better design ad a whole with the swept vanes,  I also feel that the shaft and the suction piece is superior, but only in a couple of ways.

It is a lighter pump.

I would agree to an extent on the lack of dramatic improvements over the years. I blame the aftermarket. Basically stated, there have been enough people out there (people like Jack included) that have been able to make these things work like magic. It just seems, I would have thought, that the OEM folks would have capitalized on some of the modifications being done to make them better.

I call it an opportunity missed.

Pump for pump in their raw forms I would pick the AT over the Bad Berk.

That being said. I also like the underdog most of the time.

I always thought American Turbine did a decent job. Never had any casting issues that I can remember, their customer/vendor support is second to none and the pricing always stayed somewhat reasonable.

Of course we are speaking primarily about family boats, but we did have some 800 plus HP weekend warriors with an AT and I would have put them against any Berkeley back then. (Talking about the late '90's.).

Again, could be FOS.

GT

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« Last Edit: May 08, 2015, 01:12:05 PM by GT Jets »
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: Hot rod open bow.pump build questions😜...
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2015, 06:59:22 PM »
What is it that you would really like to do with this boat?  Do you want to be on the water ASAP or do you want to put work into it to make the pump as trick as possible?

Are you up for a challenge mechanically and financially?

If you want to be on the water ASAP, the quickest route will be with the pump that corresponds to the intake that is originally installed in the boat.

If you are up for the challenge, pick and choose the best parts.  As GT started, there are advantages and disadvantages to every part.  I will attempt to break those down and describe some of the obstacles you might run into.

First, a lot will depend on exactly what parts you already have available AND if they are in good usable condition.

Following the path of water to try to put some method to my madness, the Berkeley intake, from a flow standpoint, is superior to the AT.  The AT intake has an unusual bump in the roof, just after the loader pad.  This bump creates a disturbance in the water flow path along the most critical surface.  The Berkeley has a smooth, consistent elliptical radius.

Whichever one you choose, I would definitely cut it for a shoe and ride plate.
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jyeager

  • Karma: +62/-0
Re: Hot rod open bow.pump build questions😜...
« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2015, 07:02:46 PM »

What is it that you would really like to do with this boat?  Do you want to be on the water ASAP or do you want to put work into it to make the pump as trick as possible?

Are you up for a challenge mechanically and financially?

If you want to be on the water ASAP, the quickest route will be with the pump that corresponds to the intake that is originally installed in the boat.

If you are up for the challenge, pick and choose the best parts.  As GT started, there are advantages and disadvantages to every part.  I will attempt to break those down and describe some of the obstacles you might run into.

First, a lot will depend on exactly what parts you already have available AND if they are in good usable condition.

Following the path of water to try to put some method to my madness, the Berkeley intake, from a flow standpoint, is superior to the AT.  The AT intake has an unusual bump in the roof, just after the loader pad.  This bump creates a disturbance in the water flow path along the most critical surface.  The Berkeley has a smooth, consistent elliptical radius.

Whichever one you choose, I would definitely cut it for a shoe and ride plate.
What ever joe recommends I would go with. #b1racing


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Flusher

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Re: Hot rod open bow.pump build questions😜...
« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2015, 07:56:25 PM »
Suction Housing

The AT is hands down a much more structural part.  Just about every feature of the AT is thicker, particularly the flanges.  Of the Berkeley suction housings, the latter housing with the cursive logo is the strongest.

You will need to determine which AT suction you have, there are several possibilities.  Which hand hole cover does it have, the early or the late 3-bolt or the flat round?  Next; which shaft, bearing, and seals does it have?

Some AT suction housings, like their intakes, have an unusual bump (picture 1) in the roof, just under the thrust bearing.  Again, this bump disturbs the water flow.

The short side radius along the floor of some AT housings, including the Dominator have an unusual contour present (picture 2).  The Berkeley suction housing, with its smooth contour, is superior from a flow standpoint.

The diameter of the flanges are different also:
Berkeley, early and late - 11-3/8"
AT and Dominator - 11-5/8

The difference in diameter will pose a problem with the transom adapter.  More on this later.

The Challenge

Should you choose to accept it:  First, bolt the stripped AT suction housing to the Berkeley intake, currently installed in the boat, using every last bolt.  Look all around the inside to see if it fits nicely.  You definitely do not want any overhang of the short side radius restricting flow into the lower half of the impeller.

Next, if there is misalignment, what will it take to align it?  If substantial movement is required, the suction should be pinned to maintain alignment with the intake (pictures 3 & 4)
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"I want to roll with my brother Joe" - Joe Bateman - January 29, 1950 ~ November 27, 2013

Flusher

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Re: Hot rod open bow.pump build questions😜...
« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2015, 08:47:06 PM »
Bowls

We strongly recommend the modern Dominator bowls.  Our testing on various boats indicates that a stock Dominator bowl is about equivalent to our best detailed Berkeley JG bowl.  We have recorded gains of 0.150-seconds by doing nothing more than switching from a fully detailed Berkeley JG to a fully detailed Dominator in a very consistent and well setup 9-second boat.

If you have an early Dominator bowl of an AT that is water lubricating , you are probably better off sticking with the Berkeley.  Look inside the nozzle if you don't already have it apart.  If it is open (picture 1), it is water lubricating.  These work surprisingly well, however it is not our preference.  If you see a red plug and zerk fitting (picture 2), you have a grease lubricating bowl.  We can convert a water lubricating bowl to grease lubricating, but we really recommend a modern Dominator bowl.

Keep in mind that the AT and Dominator bowls are 1/4" larger diameter than the Berkeley.  You can bore the Berkeley transom adapter to fit the AT and Dominator bowls, however we would probably recommend that you stay with the Berkeley bowl.

Lastly, the larger Dominator bowl looks out of place on a smaller Berkeley suction housing.
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"I want to roll with my brother Joe" - Joe Bateman - January 29, 1950 ~ November 27, 2013

Flusher

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Re: Hot rod open bow.pump build questions😜...
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2015, 09:41:08 PM »
Impeller

You are at the power level where you need to step up to a stainless impeller.  In our opinion, there is nothing better than the AT stainless impeller.  We don't recommend the bronze impellers because they can't be welded.  If that is what you have, run it.

Have your dyno sheets handy when discussing your needs with your favorite impeller guru.  Make sure that he is aware that you have a large, heavy boat.  Also if you intend to pull skiers, tubes, etc. you won't want a small impeller.  Your engine in a small, light race boat will use a totally different impeller.  That same impeller in your big, heavy boat will be a dog out of the hole.

Shaft

Try to stick a magnet to your AT shaft.  If it sticks, the shaft is made from 17-4 stainless steel.  That is the good stuff.  Berkeley shafts are manufactured from 304 stainless steel.  17-4 has a much higher tensile strength than 304, which is notorious for twisting at the splines.  If the splines twist, it will prevent the yoke from sliding on the splines.  If the yoke cannot slide, the pump shaft will push the drive line and force the crankshaft to wear against the engine's thrust bearing.  This will destroy your new engine with a quickness.

Inducer

I am going to recommend that you install an inducer for a couple reasons.  First, they work!  Inducers work by reducing cavitation of the impeller by raising the pressure at the inlet eye of the impeller and by feeding water to the impeller at a higher rate than it can draw in on its own so you don't blow the pump dry.  Lastly, if you don't do it now, everything has to come apart to do it later.
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"I want to roll with my brother Joe" - Joe Bateman - January 29, 1950 ~ November 27, 2013

Flusher

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Re: Hot rod open bow.pump build questions😜...
« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2015, 09:46:04 PM »
I forgot to mention:

If your AT suction housing has an intake flange like this, you may not be happy with how it looks bolted to a Berkeley intake.
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"I want to roll with my brother Joe" - Joe Bateman - January 29, 1950 ~ November 27, 2013

Flusher

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Re: Hot rod open bow.pump build questions😜...
« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2015, 10:12:55 PM »
Post up some pictures of what you have.  Really can't make any recommendations without seeing exactly what you have.

To benefit at all from this swap, it will require a lot of attention to detail.  It is also going to be a fair amount of work, not just a bolt-in swap.

Keep in mind, you probably won't notice any difference in performance.

Regardless which parts use, it is all for naught if you don't have a good install job done on your intake with a good transition from the fiberglass into the intake opening.

Good luck,

Joe
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"I want to roll with my brother Joe" - Joe Bateman - January 29, 1950 ~ November 27, 2013

GT Jets

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Re: Hot rod open bow.pump build questions😜...
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2015, 12:05:16 AM »
Good shit Joe.
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

aquaholic72

  • Karma: +54/-0
Re: Hot rod open bow.pump build questions😜...
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2015, 04:02:26 AM »
Holy crap!!! That was alot of serious info right there!! O0

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aquaholic72

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Re: Hot rod open bow.pump build questions😜...
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2015, 04:08:48 AM »
When the day comes that i post a thread on prop selection i hope i can get that type of detailed response!! U guys are awesome...

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Flusher

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Re: Hot rod open bow.pump build questions😜...
« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2015, 05:04:15 AM »
When the day comes that i post a thread on prop selection i hope i can get that type of detailed response!! U guys are awesome...

Ask and yea shall receive.

That was easy.  Hahaha
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roost

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Re: Hot rod open bow.pump build questions😜...
« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2015, 09:19:50 AM »
Some AT suction housings, like their intakes, have an unusual bump (picture 1) in the roof, just under the thrust bearing.  Again, this bump disturbs the water flow.

The short side radius along the floor of some AT housings, including the Dominator have an unusual contour present (picture 2).  The Berkeley suction housing, with its smooth contour, is superior from a flow standpoint.

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the "unusual bump" as a detriment. Instead of assuming it disturbs flow in a negative way, consider what that bump does from a hydrodynamic point of view.
With it rising at the centerline of the shaft, it creates low pressure on the backside pulling flow around and up the backside of the shaft. Think of it kind of like a spoon at the front of an intake. If it were smooth like a Berk, flow would hit the shaft, split around it and create low pressure on the backside of the shaft. I can see that creating cavitation far more than the bump would. Just an alternative consideration.....
  • Boat #1: 1986 Commander Sunstreaker 21 open bow
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