Sicaz66

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Re: Hot rod open bow.pump build questions😜...
« Reply #25 on: May 09, 2015, 09:30:00 AM »
Thanks for all the replys! Been wracking my brain on this.  :banghead: when I called jack . I explained money ( to an extent) was not an issue.i also told him I have both pumps already and access to a dominator. He said he'd blueprint the JG . Boat already has shoe and ride plate, just got an AQ shaft,inducer, and will be ordering a stainless impeller. Pump is set back already so I have the deep transom shield. Didn't really want "plates" so sticking with a detailed berk bowl is probably my best solution. As I can't seem to find a deep transom shield to fit the dominator/AT bowl. Any reason not to do what jack says?
  • Boat #1: 2001 placecraft sport cruiser( laid up by rpm).
  • Boat #2: 26' Blackman billfisher,fish machine.
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GT Jets

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Re: Hot rod open bow.pump build questions😜...
« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2015, 09:36:31 AM »
Thanks for all the replys! Been wracking my brain on this.  :banghead: when I called jack . I explained money ( to an extent) was not an issue.i also told him I have both pumps already and access to a dominator. He said he'd blueprint the JG . Boat already has shoe and ride plate, just got an AQ shaft,inducer, and will be ordering a stainless impeller. Pump is set back already so I have the deep transom shield. Didn't really want "plates" so sticking with a detailed berk bowl is probably my best solution. As I can't seem to find a deep transom shield to fit the dominator/AT bowl. Any reason not to do what jack says?

Not in my opinion.

Given the information you just threw out there, it makes the most sense.

Do you need my shipping address for the AT?

Hahaha. ..


GT

Sent from my SCH-I545 using SoCal Jet Boats mobile app

  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

Sicaz66

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hot rod open bow.pump build questions😜...
« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2015, 09:39:54 AM »
Not in my opinion.

Given the information you just threw out there, it makes the most sense.

Do you need my shipping address for the AT?

Hahaha. ..


GT
Sure.as long as you buy the boat its attached to! 8)

Sent from my SCH-I545 using SoCal Jet Boats mobile app
  • Boat #1: 2001 placecraft sport cruiser( laid up by rpm).
  • Boat #2: 26' Blackman billfisher,fish machine.
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Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: Hot rod open bow.pump build questions😜...
« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2015, 01:16:33 PM »
Thanks for all the replys! Been wracking my brain on this.  :banghead: when I called jack . I explained money ( to an extent) was not an issue.i also told him I have both pumps already and access to a dominator. He said he'd blueprint the JG . Boat already has shoe and ride plate, just got an AQ shaft,inducer, and will be ordering a stainless impeller. Pump is set back already so I have the deep transom shield. Didn't really want "plates" so sticking with a detailed berk bowl is probably my best solution. As I can't seem to find a deep transom shield to fit the dominator/AT bowl. Any reason not to do what jack says?

Knowing Jack, this is probably his thinking.  A whole lot of money and effort for no real gains.

Cheers,

Joe
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"I want to roll with my brother Joe" - Joe Bateman - January 29, 1950 ~ November 27, 2013

Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: Hot rod open bow.pump build questions😜...
« Reply #29 on: May 09, 2015, 02:05:04 PM »
I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the "unusual bump" as a detriment. Instead of assuming it disturbs flow in a negative way, consider what that bump does from a hydrodynamic point of view.
With it rising at the centerline of the shaft, it creates low pressure on the backside pulling flow around and up the backside of the shaft. Think of it kind of like a spoon at the front of an intake. If it were smooth like a Berk, flow would hit the shaft, split around it and create low pressure on the backside of the shaft. I can see that creating cavitation far more than the bump would. Just an alternative consideration.....

This is a concept that I hadn't considered.  If you will bare with me over the next few posts, I would really like to explore this further.

I am not trying to thread jack, I am gain a better understanding myself.

As long as the OP doesn't mind, I will post here.  Otherwise I will move to a new thread.

This is why we dismissed some of the AT suction housings to fishing boat status:  Approaching this from a cylinder head flow perspective; we feel that the greatest non-turbulent mass flowing suction housing, that doesn't overcharge the pump, and with even pressure across the face of the impeller must be the most efficient.

Looking at the AT and Dominator suction housings, that bump is really not there for flow purposes.  It is there because these suction housings, compared to a Berkeley, resemble a raised port cylinder head intake port.  The bump is there to maintain wall thickness around the thrust bearing and packings.

Typically the suction housing is drilled near the top and bottom of the impeller inlet eye.  These pressure ports are monitored by pressure transducers connected to a data logging system.  Keel pressure (vacuum) and bowl pressure are also monitored along with speed, RPM, etc.  All of these could be graphed together to observe trends.

One such trend is that when a Berkeley suction housing cracks and is switched to a Dominator housing, the lower impeller inlet eye pressure drops.  Chris @ B1racing blended his with epoxy on 418 and the the lower suction pressure increased, resembling that of a Berkeley housing.  As the epoxy is now long gone, the pressure is back to typical Dominator pressures.

On boats where a fishing boat suction is swapped for a Dominator, pressure increases.  Being that Dominator is AT's top dog pump, and that bump has been mostly removed, I would think that if it was a flow device rather than an ease of manufacturing and tooling concerns, it would intentionally be exaggerated in the Dominator housing.

To be continued...
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"I want to roll with my brother Joe" - Joe Bateman - January 29, 1950 ~ November 27, 2013

Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: Hot rod open bow.pump build questions😜...
« Reply #30 on: May 09, 2015, 04:42:26 PM »
I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the "unusual bump" as a detriment. Instead of assuming it disturbs flow in a negative way, consider what that bump does from a hydrodynamic point of view.
With it rising at the centerline of the shaft, it creates low pressure on the backside pulling flow around and up the backside of the shaft. Think of it kind of like a spoon at the front of an intake. If it were smooth like a Berk, flow would hit the shaft, split around it and create low pressure on the backside of the shaft. I can see that creating cavitation far more than the bump would. Just an alternative consideration.....

One test is worth a thousand theories.

Here are some screen shots of a drawing that I created in SolidWorks.  I drew this to evaluate hub profiles for my inducer design.

That bump can easily be added in SolidWorks.  Why not run a test?

First, I want to explain the compromises that were made.  I was not able to digitize an actual suction housing using a Coordinate Measuring Machine (CMM).  Most dimensions were obtained through conventional measuring tools.  The more challenging profiles of a surface were calculated in the software.  This drawing is not meant to simulate actual flow characteristics of any particular suction housing.  It is purely intended for comparing inducer hub profiles.

The only alteration to the drawing was to add a bump that approximated the size, shape, and location of the bump in the AT suction housing.

As usual, I am shocked at the results as they are never what I expect.
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"I want to roll with my brother Joe" - Joe Bateman - January 29, 1950 ~ November 27, 2013

Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: Hot rod open bow.pump build questions😜...
« Reply #31 on: May 09, 2015, 04:45:49 PM »
Another compromise was made by not drawing the entry of the intake, so flow along the short turn radius (floor) is not as accurate as it could be because the inlet flow is perpendicular to the intake surface.

These tests also don't account for the influence of a loader.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2015, 05:14:41 PM by Flusher »
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"I want to roll with my brother Joe" - Joe Bateman - January 29, 1950 ~ November 27, 2013

Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: Hot rod open bow.pump build questions😜...
« Reply #32 on: May 09, 2015, 05:13:35 PM »
Here is what I discovered:

The water bends around the shaft much sooner.

Velocity of the water on top of the shaft, just in front of the inducer is slower.

It appears that the flow into the inducer along the roof of the suction has separated and is slightly more turbulent.

Flow below the center line of the suction housing seems to be unaffected.

Laminar flow across the roof is still remaining attached to the surface.  I thought there would be a much greater disturbance here with the bump acting like a ski jump from the perspective of the water.

Finally, peak velocity of the water increased slightly from 911.479in/s to 917.73in/s.  However, the high velocity area along the roof at the top of the impeller inlet expands lower, almost to the top of the shaft where in the original test, the velocity is screaming across the roof.
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"I want to roll with my brother Joe" - Joe Bateman - January 29, 1950 ~ November 27, 2013

Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: Hot rod open bow.pump build questions😜...
« Reply #33 on: May 09, 2015, 05:17:50 PM »
Here is what I discovered:

The water bends around the shaft much sooner.

Velocity of the water on top of the shaft, just in front of the inducer is slower.

It appears that the flow into the inducer along the roof of the suction has separated and is slightly more turbulent.

Flow below the center line of the suction housing seems to be unaffected.

Laminar flow across the roof is still remaining attached to the surface.  I thought there would be a much greater disturbance here with the bump acting like a ski jump from the perspective of the water.

Finally, peak velocity of the water increased slightly from 911.479in/s to 917.73in/s.  However, the high velocity area along the roof at the top of the impeller inlet expands lower, almost to the top of the shaft where in the original test, the velocity is screaming across the roof.

Pictures
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"I want to roll with my brother Joe" - Joe Bateman - January 29, 1950 ~ November 27, 2013

Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: Hot rod open bow.pump build questions😜...
« Reply #34 on: May 09, 2015, 05:25:12 PM »
These pictures illustrate the flow along the roof, after the bump, just as the water starts to bend around the shaft.
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"I want to roll with my brother Joe" - Joe Bateman - January 29, 1950 ~ November 27, 2013

Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: Hot rod open bow.pump build questions😜...
« Reply #35 on: May 09, 2015, 05:29:43 PM »
This picture illustrates the water tightly bending around the bump.

I will test further by increasing the velocity to see if our ski jump theories hold water.
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"I want to roll with my brother Joe" - Joe Bateman - January 29, 1950 ~ November 27, 2013

Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: Hot rod open bow.pump build questions😜...
« Reply #36 on: May 09, 2015, 05:33:51 PM »
These pictures indicate that the water does indeed bend around the shaft sooner with the bump than without
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"I want to roll with my brother Joe" - Joe Bateman - January 29, 1950 ~ November 27, 2013

Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: Hot rod open bow.pump build questions😜...
« Reply #37 on: May 09, 2015, 05:51:42 PM »
I will test further by increasing the velocity to see if our ski jump theories hold water.

Increasing the velocity to maximum allowed in the software indicated no discernable difference in flow trajectories
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"I want to roll with my brother Joe" - Joe Bateman - January 29, 1950 ~ November 27, 2013

Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: Hot rod open bow.pump build questions😜...
« Reply #38 on: May 09, 2015, 05:57:11 PM »
Special shout out to roost, thank you for opening my mind.  I learned a lot today.

Cheers,

Joe
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"I want to roll with my brother Joe" - Joe Bateman - January 29, 1950 ~ November 27, 2013

mash on it

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Re: Hot rod open bow.pump build questions😜...
« Reply #39 on: May 09, 2015, 06:09:47 PM »
WOW, Good info, Mr.Joe  :thumbup:

....Alex ...I'll take laminar flow jet pumps for $1000......
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CJ/RR 212...under construction  "Pistol Annie"

roost

  • Karma: +10/-0
Re: Hot rod open bow.pump build questions😜...
« Reply #40 on: May 09, 2015, 06:23:07 PM »
It's extremely cool you have the resources and expertise to run with something that to me would remain a theory. Were this concept taken to another level, I would expect to see more complete loading of the impeller radially with (all things being equal) more volume being passed and lower and possibly more even intake pressures.
Would it make any real difference on my old tank? Not likely..... :o
  • Boat #1: 1986 Commander Sunstreaker 21 open bow
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GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Hot rod open bow.pump build questions😜...
« Reply #41 on: May 09, 2015, 06:31:26 PM »
Bernoulli in action. The only way your ski jump theory works is if you had a higher total static pressure, which is very difficult at these velocities. Dimple the interior of a suction housing like a golf ball and tell me what happens. The suction housing walls become invisible to the water flow.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using SoCal Jet Boats mobile app
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: Hot rod open bow.pump build questions😜...
« Reply #42 on: May 09, 2015, 06:49:14 PM »
Were this concept taken to another level, I would expect to see more complete loading of the impeller radially with (all things being equal) more volume being passed and lower and possibly more even intake pressures.
Would it make any real difference on my old tank? Not likely..... :o

Ultimately, more even intake pressure is the goal.  I believe that any combination can benefit from optimizing.  Gains in performance and economy are realistic.

Of course there are those who want a race pump in their ski boat with the stock 300 horsepower cement mixer that complain, "All it did was take away all the RPM."
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"I want to roll with my brother Joe" - Joe Bateman - January 29, 1950 ~ November 27, 2013

Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: Hot rod open bow.pump build questions😜...
« Reply #43 on: May 09, 2015, 07:34:19 PM »
Dimple the interior of a suction housing like a golf ball and tell me what happens. The suction housing walls become invisible to the water flow.

That is done in intake ports, not to increase flow or reduce boundary layer, but to increase turbulence to promote better homogeneity of the air and fuel in the combustion chamber.

I think a textured surface has merit over polished smooth however that is not within my testing capabilities at this time.

I think a foiled valve guide shape around the shaft would probably be beneficial.  That's on my to do list but low in priority.
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"I want to roll with my brother Joe" - Joe Bateman - January 29, 1950 ~ November 27, 2013

GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Hot rod open bow.pump build questions😜...
« Reply #44 on: May 09, 2015, 07:47:19 PM »
That is done in intake ports, not to increase flow or reduce boundary layer, but to increase turbulence to promote better homogeneity of the air and fuel in the combustion chamber.

I think a textured surface has merit over polished smooth however that is not within my testing capabilities at this time.

I think a foiled valve guide shape around the shaft would probably be beneficial.  That's on my to do list but low in priority.

It works similarly with liquid,but not quite the same.

With the intake in the jet it literally eliminates eddy currents to the point of making the shape less important.

I believe GTH messed around with the idea in the '80's.

GT
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: Hot rod open bow.pump build questions😜...
« Reply #45 on: May 09, 2015, 08:09:09 PM »
I may be totally wrong but, I believe Jim Fueling was the first to experiment with internationally textured intake ports.  He was trying to increase combustion efficiency by monitoring emissions while running on a dyno after texturing parts of intake ports to promote air/fuel mixing.

I think that reduces eddy currents but increases overall turbulence.  Am I on the right track?

If so, that doesn't seem desirable immediately before an inducer and impeller.

Thank you,

Joe
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"I want to roll with my brother Joe" - Joe Bateman - January 29, 1950 ~ November 27, 2013

GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Hot rod open bow.pump build questions😜...
« Reply #46 on: May 09, 2015, 08:23:17 PM »
I may be totally wrong but, I believe Jim Fueling was the first to experiment with internationally textured intake ports.  He was trying to increase combustion efficiency by monitoring emissions while running on a dyno after texturing parts of intake ports to promote air/fuel mixing.

I think that reduces eddy currents but increases overall turbulence.  Am I on the right track?

If so, that doesn't seem desirable immediately before an inducer and impeller.

Thank you,

Joe

Sort of.

From my recollection (I was about 15 at the time), it took the mono directional disturbances and minimized them.

What this did was made the water column entering the impeller a very consistent quality. Not necessarily turbulent because of the shear volume and velocity. When pressure was added by the shoe and the plate loader it squared the load as close to perfect as possible.

I have somewhere some white papers on the subject. I always thought I would have the time to dicker around with it, but life got in the way.

The bottom of the race tunnel was dimpled. Pretty cutting edge stuff I thought.

I was into hydroplanes at the time. Didn't get into jets really hard until I got my drivers license.

I think I could still make a hydro work.

GT
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

Sicaz66

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hot rod open bow.pump build questions😜...
« Reply #47 on: May 09, 2015, 10:29:51 PM »
Whoa.... :o you guys are way too smart. But I have enjoyed the schooling!!  ;)
  • Boat #1: 2001 placecraft sport cruiser( laid up by rpm).
  • Boat #2: 26' Blackman billfisher,fish machine.
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