Post by: Water-Man on May 25, 2021, 09:33:55 PM
https://youtu.be/6v8yf16YrJc
the pump has been completely reconditioned. But the stamp shows this was done in 12/2002, by hi-tech performance.
the inside of the tunnel and all parts look nearly new, there is not a scratch inside the tunnel.
so Im guessing(hoping) it has not been used since the rebuild.
When I tired to turn the pump by hand, I could barely get it to turn. After doing it for a couple minutes it started to free up
and I could turn it with both hands using one inside the cleanout port and the other on the spline.
In fact I have blisters on my hand from turning the shaft.
it appears to feel like resistance against the side of the wear ring, based on feel at a certain points.
there is no grinding noise.(but it is lubricated).just a slight sliding or swishing sound.
After talking to Alex at intermountain marine here in Canada, he told me that the new packing glands would make it difficult to turn.
and I know they must be water lubricated and have a slight "drip" about once every minute.
I am assuming new packing gland. The Impeller is greased heavily at the wear ring.
Zero end shaft play (horizontally or vertically). seems the impeller feels tight to
the wear ring?
it has a bronze impeller.
IS this normal for a reconditioned pump to be that tight? or any pump?
Post by: Flusher on May 26, 2021, 12:15:29 AM
Post by: Water-Man on May 26, 2021, 05:41:21 AM
Yes, the packings make it difficult to turn. Everything you said is accurate. I really don't like the idea of grease on the wear ring. There should be .025 clearance between the impeller and wear ring, it shouldn't touch. Grease in the wear ring area is a dirt magnet that will turn into a lapping compound that will quickly open the clearance and decrease performance. Be advised that you may very well have an Ultimate Wear Ring, it would be an orange colored urethane and would most likely be set up with interference against the impeller.
Flusher, thank you for the confirmation. I posted this on 3 different sites just to try to get a some insight into it. I really
appreciate the response. so far your the only one. I live in a different time zone. this was the earliest I could respond back.
So to check the wear ring colour i would have to pull the bowl, check to tolerance, and if it was not set properly. i would need to pull the impeller? then degrease the wear ring as well. This pump was set up for running lakes at high speeds, so they probably weren't worried about sand. I will change that. much appreciated.
Post by: Water-Man on May 26, 2021, 07:38:08 AM
Be advised that you may very well have an Ultimate Wear Ring, it would be an orange colored urethane and would most likely be set up with interference against the impeller.
Flusher. you are correct. it has The Ultimate wear ring. pleasant surprise(?).
I removed the packing gland to make sure. Its even tighter than before.
I can fit a "25" feeler into the gap between the wear ring and the impeller but will double check that with a proper feeler later.
so maybe now I have to take the whole pump apart? ugh.
would the interference be that tight?
Post by: mash on it on May 26, 2021, 07:55:56 AM
Dan'l
Post by: Flusher on May 26, 2021, 08:54:28 AM
I posted this on 3 different sites just to try to get a some insight into it. I really
appreciate the response. so far your the only one.
Because this is the place to be!
Post by: Flusher on May 26, 2021, 08:55:08 AM
Flusher. you are correct. it has The Ultimate wear ring. pleasant surprise(?).It's .025 total, .0125 per side.
I removed the packing gland to make sure. Its even tighter than before.
I can fit a "25" feeler into the gap between the wear ring and the impeller but will double check that with a proper feeler later.
so maybe now I have to take the whole pump apart? ugh.
would the interference be that tight?
Post by: Water-Man on May 26, 2021, 11:28:55 AM
It's .025 total, .0125 per side.Flusher. ok your likely going to laugh at me. Its cool. I am just learning. but I received the pump without a bearing cap. and Im guessing that would be the problem (facepalm) ... wouldn't it push the shaft maybe 0.005" out , and that would free up the shaft considerably? also i did check the gap and the outside of the pump clearance seems to be about 025" but the inside is nearly flush or flush with the UWR.
i am unable to get a 025" gap gauge into it. however I am betting the bearing cap will solve this. Rick Bourns got back to me (did not know about the bearing cap missing and the UWR) and said it will be fine, and that the pump was probably set up that way. so I guess Im not so worried. but I ordered some shims and a bearing cap kit. ill keep you updated. thx again for listening to an old fool try to learn new tricks.
Post by: Flusher on May 26, 2021, 02:12:59 PM
Flusher. ok your likely going to laugh at me. Its cool. I am just learning. but I received the pump without a bearing cap. and Im guessing that would be the problem (facepalm) ... wouldn't it push the shaft maybe 0.005" out , and that would free up the shaft considerably? also i did check the gap and the outside of the pump clearance seems to be about 025" but the inside is nearly flush or flush with the UWR.I no longer have a sense of humor, so I never laugh at anyone.
i am unable to get a 025" gap gauge into it. however I am betting the bearing cap will solve this. Rick Bourns got back to me (did not know about the bearing cap missing and the UWR) and said it will be fine, and that the pump was probably set up that way. so I guess Im not so worried. but I ordered some shims and a bearing cap kit. ill keep you updated. thx again for listening to an old fool try to learn new tricks.
Did Dwayne build the pump?
It is possible that it was intentionally assembled without a bearing cap in anticipation of installing a JetAway. Check in front of the packing clamp to see if the seal is turned around backwards (lip towards the thrust bearing). Standard would be the lip towards the impeller.
I'm not saying that there is anything wrong an Ultimate Wear Ring, it's just not our preferred method. Regardless, the shaft should rotate, a full 720-degrees, without any tight spots.
No bearing cap/JetAway could allow the thrust bearing, and therefore the impeller, to move forward and rub. With a stainless or bronze wear ring, we would set the front/rear clearance ranging from .035-.065 (.125 is stock Berkeley). Depending on usage.
As far as a dirt magnet, the pump will pick up a suprising amount of debris from simply towing. That's why I don't think grease on the wear ring is a good idea. It's also a good idea, at the ramp, to dunk the boat, submerging the pump, pull forward to rinse the pump out, then drop it in the water. Anything that you can do to keep abrasives out of your pump will help maintain a tight clearance.
Post by: Water-Man on May 26, 2021, 07:12:34 PM
I no longer have a sense of humor, so I never laugh at anyone.
Did Dwayne build the pump?
It is possible that it was intentionally assembled without a bearing cap in anticipation of installing a JetAway. Check in front of the packing clamp to see if the seal is turned around backwards (lip towards the thrust bearing). Standard would be the lip towards the impeller.
I'm not saying that there is anything wrong an Ultimate Wear Ring, it's just not our preferred method. Regardless, the shaft should rotate, a full 720-degrees, without any tight spots.
No bearing cap/JetAway could allow the thrust bearing, and therefore the impeller, to move forward and rub. With a stainless or bronze wear ring, we would set the front/rear clearance ranging from .035-.065 (.125 is stock Berkeley). Depending on usage.
As far as a dirt magnet, the pump will pick up a surprising amount of debris from simply towing. That's why I don't think grease on the wear ring is a good idea. It's also a good idea, at the ramp, to dunk the boat, submerging the pump, pull forward to rinse the pump out, then drop it in the water. Anything that you can do to keep abrasives out of your pump will help maintain a tight clearance.
Well the Dude I bought it from, used the Bearing Cap on another boat. but today Rick from CP Performance, said he thought that the pump was built "tight" this pump was actually used as a racing pump on lakes or so the seller said. Rick also thought the impeller was a B cut so im wondering how to check that for certain? he said the grease would get blown out anyway from the water pressure.
I actually asked David from Hi-perf to check his records to see what had been done to it but i guess he didn't find anything...
regardless, Im getting a shim kit sent to me and add a shim to give the pump some better tolerances. it is rubbing against the wear ring, can't fit and feeler into it at all.
Post by: Flusher on May 29, 2021, 05:01:37 PM
Well the Dude I bought it from, used the Bearing Cap on another boat. but today Rick from CP Performance, said he thought that the pump was built "tight" this pump was actually used as a racing pump on lakes or so the seller said. Rick also thought the impeller was a B cut so im wondering how to check that for certain? he said the grease would get blown out anyway from the water pressure.You ever try to pressure wash greasy car parts without chemicals? The water just pushes the grease around. It would be best for you to open the pump and actually see what you have, that way, you know.
I actually asked David from Hi-perf to check his records to see what had been done to it but i guess he didn't find anything...
regardless, Im getting a shim kit sent to me and add a shim to give the pump some better tolerances. it is rubbing against the wear ring, can't fit and feeler into it at all.
Are you saying that this pump was already run?
To disassemble/reassemble, you will need an impeller nut socket and shaft socket. You may or may not need an impeller puller. The impeller should come off with some effort. If corrosion, you will need a puller. Please don't use a pipe wrench on the shaft, especially the splines.
When you check the front clearance, check at 3 and 9 o'clock positions. I struggle to fit my meat paws, fumbling a feeler gauge, through the hand hole cover. Not my favorite method.
I prefer to put a dial indicator on the splined end of the shaft, parallel to the shaft centerline. Zero the indicator with the impeller pulled all the way to the rear. Push the impeller forward and take a reading on the indicator. That is your front clearance (and rear clearance). With the bearing cap removed, you could use a dial caliper to measure from the cap gasket surface to the thrust bearing, in a similar manner as described with the dial indicator.
For measuring the impeller, a 12" dial caliper works best. You really only need to measure the large diameter. The angle should be 33-degrees to the shaft.
While you have it apart, make sure you sharpen out any dings in the leading edges of the impeller and inducer if applicable.
Post by: Water-Man on May 30, 2021, 08:30:17 AM
You ever try to pressure wash greasy car parts without chemicals? The water just pushes the grease around. It would be best for you to open the pump and actually see what you have, that way, you know.Once again i really appreciate the help!! ill need to buy some of the tools. could a 1-13/16" spanner work for the impeller shaft nut?
Are you saying that this pump was already run?
To disassemble/reassemble, you will need an impeller nut socket and shaft socket. You may or may not need an impeller puller. The impeller should come off with some effort. If corrosion, you will need a puller. Please don't use a pipe wrench on the shaft, especially the splines.
When you check the front clearance, check at 3 and 9 o'clock positions. I struggle to fit my meat paws, fumbling a feeler gauge, through the hand hole cover. Not my favorite method.
I prefer to put a dial indicator on the splined end of the shaft, parallel to the shaft centerline. Zero the indicator with the impeller pulled all the way to the rear. Push the impeller forward and take a reading on the indicator. That is your front clearance (and rear clearance). With the bearing cap removed, you could use a dial caliper to measure from the cap gasket surface to the thrust bearing, in a similar manner as described with the dial indicator.
For measuring the impeller, a 12" dial caliper works best. You really only need to measure the large diameter. The angle should be 33-degrees to the shaft.
While you have it apart, make sure you sharpen out any dings in the leading edges of the impeller and inducer if applicable.
I am told it hast been run by the previous owner, to my knowledge. but since the wear ring is an UWR, then wouldn't the grease be necessary? curious. especially since the impeller is so tight. but Rick Bourns and the guy who sold me the pump said just run it like it is? im going take your advice and just tear down the pump to the impeller.
Post by: Flusher on May 30, 2021, 05:04:25 PM
While I was at B1 Racing, we just replaced them with a stainless wear ring from either American Turbine or Place Diverter, wether they needed it or not. None of us were confident in a urethane part that is in continuous contact with the rotating impeller, nor are we confident in something that is intended to "fit" or "clearance" itself during operation. We have installed a lot of bronze wear rings and have experimented with some plastics. The problem is, soft materials wear quickly, the clearance opens up, and performance degrades. For this reason, a stainless wear ring and stainless impeller work best for us, but you absolutely can not run them out of water.
I don't know the secret to making a UWR work. I honestly don't see myself going through that learning curve either. If you want to use that UWR, I would call Dwayne and ask for his recommendation.
I will offer a few more thoughts:
1.) I could go along with two people who said, "just run it." I say that because it isn't a big deal for me to pull my pump apart for inspection. If that really isn't an option for you, I would make sure that it is right before installing it. That would give you the best opportunity at a "set it and forgot it" scenario. I will assume that you would keep up on maintenance, however pump maintenance is neglected by almost everyone.
2.) Without actually feeling the resistance that you are feeling, nobody can tell you if it is too tight or not. It is a good sign if you don't feel any binding points, meaning the resistance is constant through each revolution. If the pump has been run previously, the UWR shouldn't still be overly tight. BTW, I would not run an UWR out of the water.
3.) I am of the opinion that if you don't have a warranty and someone who will take care of you when you have a problem, I would like to know my boat intimately. Having said knowledge, you will know what pitfalls you can expect, and have the knowledge to resolve issues as they arise. Jet pumps are very reliable (even when ignored) and are easy to maintain. If there is an underlying problem, its best to catch that right away.
4.) The damage that you really want to avoid is:
A.) Contact between the impeller and suction housing.
B.) Anything that could cause the wear ring to weld itself to the impeller, spinning it, and destroying the suction housing wear ring bore.
C.) Thrust bearing failure. A thrust bearing failure will destroy both your impeller and suction housing as well as destroying your engine.
D.) Lack of lubrication to the bowl bushings. The shaft will literally wear entirely through the bushings and destroy the bushing bore in the bowl.
The big dollar items are the suction housing, impeller, and bowl. Nothing else is really cheap. I'm sure you can appreciate the necessity of protecting your big dollar investment.
Post by: Water-Man on June 01, 2021, 04:15:57 PM
Hey Flusher,
I am not rich so because of that I actually take all the maintenance of my investment very seriously. It's also the reason Im seeking out people who know more than I do when it comes to these things. I grew up in and around boats, I design them, and I could drive a boat long before i ever drove a car. But the Jet pump is a new beast to me. So, maybe after a few hours of running the pump, once the boat is put together and engine installed etc. I will replace the wear ring with a standard one. I will also be removing my Droop, and likely also my Place Diverter because Im not going for top end straight line speed. Im looking at running white water, albeit deep white water but very aerated. So, Im looking for low end, hole shot, and agility as well as the ability to run in some pretty big white water. so I will add an inducer once the boat is set up. Ill keep all those points in mind. the condition of the pump looks to be excellent from what I can tell, but I think Im going to add a shim anyway, maybe .005" so it will free up the spin a bit on the pump. As always , thanks for the input!. Im open minded to anything being said.
Post by: Fonz69 on June 26, 2021, 11:00:14 AM
I can swap out an UWR in about 15 min start to finish including pump assembly but most every time I check the clearance the worst I’ve lost is .001-.003 in radial clearance. Granted I’m not bracket racing but that has worked great for me so far.
Flusher your a wealth of knowledge and I enjoy your informational posts greatly keep it up!
If I can ever add anything I will try to
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