SoCal Jet Boats
Tech Talk => Jet Pumps => Topic started by: Willow Wog on September 22, 2009, 05:39:01 PM
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my buddys panther has been leaking since the day we got it running and can't figure it out. so its leaking water from what looks like a weap hole in the suction housing on the front surface in what looks to be the bearing housing?? any thoughts??
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interesting...i know berkley has a bearing right there in the front with 2 bolts and if it leaks tighten it up a bit someone mentioned something rather that it should drip not sure if this is correct or not but i remember one of my pumps leaking and i tightened it up so it wouldnt...however panther could be different! i might be totally off here, but these are my thoughts
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It (the Panther) has a "mechanical seal" which seals the lake from the bearing (oil) if its "fouled or failed it will leak thru the "tattle tale" weep hole into the boat , It will eventually foul the 90 wt and destroy the front thrust bearing as well , Needs attention ASAP call if you need help Tom
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whatsinvolved with changing it on the panther? is it just pull the driveshaft dig the old one out and drive the new in??or is it more involved
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The Stator (tailshaft hsg) comes off then the Impeller nut and impeller then the Mechanical seal We stock the seal (around 80 bucks) This is all assuming the bearing has not been compromised Tom
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Yeah its bad that weep hole is there for a reason its letting you know to replace it. tell your friend to do his-self a favor go buy a Berk. I have a Panther and cant wait to get it off my hands. no one wants to touch it
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Yeah its bad that weep hole is there for a reason its letting you know to replace it. tell your friend to do his-self a favor go buy a Berk. I have a Panther and cant wait to get it off my hands. no one wants to touch it
Or he can have JBP convert it to Berk.
Give Tom a call
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I have a 12jc berkly just rebuilt all new parts including empleller all parts came from Tom ;D 800.00 obo
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how much to convert it to a berk?
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Call Tom at jet boat performance he does awsome work and he is good people :thumbup:
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805-466-4719 Tom JBP
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Yeah its bad that weep hole is there for a reason its letting you know to replace it. tell your friend to do his-self a favor go buy a Berk. I have a Panther and cant wait to get it off my hands. no one wants to touch it
Panther Pumps aren't always bad. Just a little different. Converting to a berk etc... can be pretty spendy. The Energizer conversion Tom @JBP does is pretty kool. But still not cheap. If the Panther on your boat has had any previous work done to it (aluminum-bronze sleeve) they can achieve respectable performance up to about 70 mph. depending on Hull and motor. The Panther doesnt require much attention, and they jump out of the hole really well. Being an Axial flow pump instead of mixed flow like a berk. To convert to a berk requires cutting the hull and glass work. It really depends on what your looking for. speed, huge rooster, or just jet boat fun.
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i have had my panther for 3 years now. i have been thru just as many motors but i have never had a problem with my panther. except for the lack of rooster tail and cool factor it has been a great pump. I just hate that the energizer kit is so expensive just to get like 5 mor mph. my boat will do about 58 right now. and i was told the energizer kit will add 15% to that.
i have been throwing around the idea of changing to a berk but my boat just keeps working so if it aint broke dont fix it.
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I agree with you Auquaholic. I manged to find a used Panther for really cheap, that had the Jetovator mod (by Panther) done to it. their mod was pretty limited, but with a few slight mods to their design. I now have a Panther that pulls hard and throws a bit of a rooster. I'll post a couple pics. I still need to get a couple shots from the shoreline. but here is what it looks like from the boat.
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not bad. i heard their diverter slows the boat down a bit. is that true??
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not bad. i heard their diverter slows the boat down a bit. is that true??
Yes it did when I first installed it last summer! So I took it back out, to see why. I posted a complete thread about the whole Panthervator project start to finish. Panther did a pretty good job enginneering the idea, they just didn't really test it I guess. I have a 21' Tahiti with a warmed over 460 and it runs great, with the mods to the exit housing that I did in my garage, it leaps out of the hole better, I can actually trim the boat a bit, and I now have the Kool factor of a rooster tail I was looking for without spending like $3000. Heres a link to the thread http://www.laidbackboatersboard.com/panthovator-mods-results-t494.html (http://www.laidbackboatersboard.com/panthovator-mods-results-t494.html)
next time out to the water I'll get some pics from shore. I have only had it out once 2 weeks ago when I finished my project. SMac, I hope the mods dont mind. ::)
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sweet. do you have any expierence with the energizer kit. i want more cool and speed out of my boat but i dont want to have to cut out the whole back end to swap pumps
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First off, WOW! Very nice work 78. Did you pick up any MPH with the mods? You know, there's a lot of people with Panthers that would likely pay handsomely for these mods, you ever think about doing this on the side?
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ya your mods look awesome. i am interested in some numbers. and i would like to see what can be done on my boat. i want a diverter bad but i dont want to lose any speed since i am already not exactly a speedboat. lol. i have hit 58 in my boat via gps and that is not bad for a stock panther.
energizer kit is like 3k$ isnt it? that is a lot of money for a 10 to 15 percent increase that they are claiming. if it is a true 15% increase i would probalby get it. but i dont want to fork out that kind of money for an unknown
the diverter is almost a grand and from the looks of it you have to do some heavy modification to make it all work right.
might just be easier to replace the pump imo.
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Wow I started this thread back in september and its still alive? crazy. Lots of good info here. We are going to order that seal this week. On the panthers do we need to pull the motor to replace the bearing??
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Like Tom at JBP said. when replacing the main pump seal (behind the impeller) you have to remove the exit housing, the impeller nut & impeller. all these things can be done with the pump left in the boat, However, you need to find out why it failed. either the DU bushing in the tail housing is bad & is letting the shaft wobble or the bearings are worn. There really isnt to much to pulling the Panther out. Just need to support the back of the motor, remove the 5 bolts & the couple other connections. Its way easier to play with the pump on a bench, as they arent very complicated.
About gaining some speed from modding the Panthervator, It feels way quicker then before any mods, and quite a bit looser (not as much boat in the water) then it did with the stock exit housing on it. The friend I took with me during its maiden test, owns a pretty fast Carrera with a Berk, droop & jetovator. I wanted an outside opinion, so I took him for a 20 minute cruise, then I swapped the exit housing to see if you could feel a seat of the pants difference, let alone the visual differences in the tail. There was obvious improvement. The difference to me, from the initial install of the Panther Modified Exit housing vs the few mods I did to it, are like nite & day. I still need to go play on the water a bit so I can get a real feel of whats improved. soon as the weather gets a little drier up here in NorCal. I'll post my results here in this thread. But I must say I'm pretty excited. Ive owned my Tahiti for over 15 years and it finaly feels like the Hot Boat it should be. 78_Tahiti aka Steve Mac.
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nice. if it is proved to be as good as you say it is i will be doing this mod as well. i read your entire other post on the other site. very informative. and your work turned out great. i am pretty good with metal working so hopefull this will go off with out a hitch.
what parts will i need? i am guessing i will need to buy the diverter from panther or can i just build one myself it does not look that difficult just have to order the ss square stock right?
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The most reasonble way to doit is find a used Pantervator. I have been toying with the Idea of how to perform the machine work needed for the exit housing. the lever and actuator I think Panther did a great job on. I have talked to Steve @ Panther Jet a few times over the years and he has always been pretty helpful. Their shop has all the equipment to perform the little things I did as they modify a stock exit housing for the adjustable trim insert that they produce. Its a matter of will they modify the way they do their modification. the stainless tubing just needs to be cut a little different at one end, and the steering nozzle cleaned up a bit. I would think they would want to produce a better version. Im sure the customer satisfaction and amount of renewed interest by Panther owners all over would benefit Panther, by the business it could generate. :sly:
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do they have any plans of making the needed corrections. and i agree the guys at panther are always helpfull when i call for advice.
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do they have any plans of making the needed corrections. and i agree the guys at panther are always helpfull when i call for advice.
I dont know, I know (from previous experience) that this time of year things are always hopping at Panther. Spring coming and all. I figured I would get some more seat time in my boat and see if there are any other little revisions I need to do before I call it done. I have a lot more pictures then I posted in my Panther Thread at Laid Back Boaters.com. I figured I could make a "How to Thread" . And if there is enough interest to justify it. I may go ahead and look for a bench top style mill, and look into setting up shop to perform my "Panthervator Conversion" on peoples Panther exit housing.
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well if it is as good as you claim mark me down for customer number 1.
i looked over your other thread. it was very interesting.
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Thanks Auqaholic. I want to get some more seat time. That way I can give a real evaluation. I was just a little suprised at the lack of refinement in Panthers machine work. So of course I had to take it apart and see if there was anything I could do inexpensively to bring it up to performance level I thought it should offer, for the $750 price tag Panther gets for the mod. I plan on heading out to CFW within the next couple weeks, and make a few short videos from shore and in the boat. That way I can also compare to the videos that I have made previously. If your intersted in any of my previous videos just goto Youtube and search for "Smactek" thats me. :sly:
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I had a panther on my 1986 Eagle 18' and the thing was bulletproof. I loved how easy it was to work on etc. etc. Never leaked a drop and just kept going no matter what. Also it seemed to not get as fouled as my Berks with Moabi weeds and Avi Vegetation. I dont knock them and it served me well.
Chris
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OK finaly got to go out and make a couple videos of the mods I did to my Panther Jetovator (Panthervator) I am suprised how it looks from shore :o Heres a link http://www.laidbackboatersboard.com/modified-panthervator-videos-t623.html (http://www.laidbackboatersboard.com/modified-panthervator-videos-t623.html)
hope you mods dont mind.
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is that duck tail split in your roost from the spliter upright within the pump?
it looks great. I would really be happy with my boat if i had that addition to the cool factor.
My stock panther hits 57 MPH. and that is not bad. that is why i have not done the energizer kit yet. panther claims you can get another 15% out of it. but i dont see my boat doing 65 MH. buy hey maybe. just got to wait for this pump to go bad.
oh and if there is any question on the panther just ask the guys from the lake mead trip. LOL
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is that duck tail split in your roost from the spliter upright within the pump?
it looks great. I would really be happy with my boat if i had that addition to the cool factor.
My stock panther hits 57 MPH. and that is not bad. that is why i have not done the energizer kit yet. panther claims you can get another 15% out of it. but i dont see my boat doing 65 MH. buy hey maybe. just got to wait for this pump to go bad.
oh and if there is any question on the panther just ask the guys from the lake mead trip. LOL
LOL! Yup, the steering fin splits it. makes it kind of unique. Like I mentioned before, I did this by cleaning up Panthers Mods. I am actually pretty amazed with the Height and Length of the tail. I did lose a little top speed, like 3 mph by my speedo. But I havent played with my ride plate or anything yet. One new trait though, is a little cavitation right out of the hole. Which I am investigating currently. other than that I am pretty happy with the outcome compared to how crappy this diverter worked at first. ;D
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your panther did not cav at all before the mod? cause mine will cav just a bit if i drop the hammer from a dead stop. i am under the ipression that panthers are supposed to come out of the hole better than most.
anyway i love this thread and i have been researching the panther mods for a long time.
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your panther did not cav at all before the mod? cause mine will cav just a bit if i drop the hammer from a dead stop. i am under the ipression that panthers are supposed to come out of the hole better than most.
anyway i love this thread and i have been researching the panther mods for a long time.
my boat didnt cavitate at all before switching exit housings. Im trying to kind of set a baseline. The Sac River does have a lot of crap in it at the moment, I did find a 8" weed partialy trapped in the grate when I pulled it out yesterday.
Then it appears we are comrads in arms. I've been foolin around with my old Tahiti and these goofy Panthers for a little over 20 years. I too, have watched & read any info I could could find out about these pumps. the one I have in my boat now is a sleeved version. much better performance than with out it. I simply cant justify $3000 worth of work to make my boat do 65mph, maybe. :sly: So I just keep tinkering with little things, that I believe will make it better. :banghead: Its getting there though. ::)
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My buddys panther does the opposite it cavitates for days on acceleration until it gets on plane.... What do you think is the cause of it??
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from past experience, with mine anyways. The Panthers create enough suction to steal air from around the back of the pump. or also if there is to much impeller to pump case clearance. If the tailshaft bushing hasnt been lubricated enough, the bushing wears and allows the shaft to wobble. In turn the heavy stainless impeller will gouge out the housing (creating excessive clearance) the factory clearance spec. is .025" to .030" on each side of the impeller. If it is a sleeved pump you can reduce this to .010" to .012". the biggest clue to excessive wear is cavitation at take of (according to Panther) it is also much more noticeable on bigger DayCruiser Style Boats with Big Blocks. the smaller boats and boats with little blocks dont seem to have as much of an issue when the pump gets worn. :sly:
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ya i am going to run this season on the pump i got. then as soon as the river season is over (october) i am going to send my pump off for the panther repower package. i am not going to get the diverter on it though. it just does not seem worth it to pay extra to have a roost and slow your boat down a bit.
i am pretty sure my pump needs a rebuild. i can hear some noises coming from the pump if i start the motor when it is on the trailer.
i love that there is someone else out there reppin the Panther pumps. lol
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ya i am going to run this season on the pump i got. then as soon as the river season is over (october) i am going to send my pump off for the panther repower package. i am not going to get the diverter on it though. it just does not seem worth it to pay extra to have a roost and slow your boat down a bit.
I agree about losing any performance. beleieve it or not Im not sold on this Panthervator! I kept my original exit housing. in my honest opinion, a $750 additional pricetag above the cost of rebuilding the pump, by the manufacturer, with an end result of slower then stock performance, and only slight trim adjustment. a set of trim tabs tabs can do that. Panthers Diverter only offers 7 degrees of up and 7 degrees of down from center. mine gets 18 degrees up angle and 7 degrees down.
On a different note a friend of mine wants me to check out another Panther piece. a Droop Snout exit housing.
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I am not sure if this will help anyone but I have an 81 galaxy 18 foot jet with a 450hp roller 396. Whan i first got the boat it did a disappointing 55mph. I took the pump apart and found it was pretty beat and had alot of erosion. So i ordered a rebuild kit from panther and a manual. My father works for an industrial pump rebuilding comany so I asked what they us to repair worn pump housings. He said they use loc tite nordback trowellable ceramic wear resistant putty and brushable ceramic coating. The stuff is pricy $300 for both kits. Anyways I used the putty to fill in all the pitting and raduis the area right befor e the impeller Then I coated the whole inside of the pump suction and stator. I also cleaned the stator edges with a file and matched the stator housing to the hub of the impeller before coating with epoxy. I got the clearance around the impeller down to about .020" with the ceramic coating. Now the boat does 71 mph on a gps after playing with the ride plate a bit. All for under $700 justspent a bit of time on it. I have two weekends on it now and no wear on the epoxy yet either.
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Hey guys i am new to the forum. I have been reading all the posts about panther jet pumps with interest as i own one in a 21', 1977
Charger Day Cruiser with a 460. In 2009 after 32 years of problem free performance i sent the pump to Panther Jet for a rebuild,
performance sleeve and jet-o-vator. The pump in its wore out state pushed the boat to a speed of 55mph, never cavitated, launched
hard. I felt like it was time for a rebuild and wanted added performance. What i got was a pump that wont do 40mph, cavitates at
takeoff and under hard acceleration and a jet-o-vator thats worthless. Steve at Panther Jet was working with me to address the problems until the motor developed oiling issues. This spring i put in a 502 stroker 460 and tried to contact Steve but found out he is
gone. Tried to get help in addressing the pump issues but the are blowing me off and telling me i caused my own problems and the
pump is no longer in warranty. The cavitation is pretty bad and i am at a lost as what to do. If any one could give me some help i
would appreciate it.
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i was trying to get some speed out of my panther as well. and to tell ya the truth tom at jet boat performance seemed to know more about the pump than panther. and at half the cost of dealing with panther he is the only guy i would recomend you talking to about your pump. he is always there to help he even does not mind if you call him on his sell phone when you are out on the water to let him know whats up.
i would suggest give him a call.
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i was trying to get some speed out of my panther as well. and to tell ya the truth tom at jet boat performance seemed to know more about the pump than panther. and at half the cost of dealing with panther he is the only guy i would recomend you talking to about your pump. he is always there to help he even does not mind if you call him on his sell phone when you are out on the water to let him know whats up.
i would suggest give him a call.
I agree with you there! Tom has been playing with them for a very long time. The energizer conversion is really sweet! Its just waaaay out of my price range. From the most recent conversation I had with Panther reguarding cavitation with their pumps (besides a badly worn one) is all about exit housing. for some reason when they hog out the tail of the pump for the diverter, it makes the pump cavitate. My sleeved pump works fantastic with my stock exit housing, however my other exit housing (with Panthervater) cavitates on hard acceleration out of the hole. Panther said they make a number of different exit housings. I did NOT Know this. There must be a fine line in an Axial pump like these where either to small or to large of an exit hole must cause the cavitation. Maybe Tom can chime in and help me understand a little better why.
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Hey guys i am new to the forum. I have been reading all the posts about panther jet pumps with interest as i own one in a 21', 1977
Charger Day Cruiser with a 460. In 2009 after 32 years of problem free performance i sent the pump to Panther Jet for a rebuild,
performance sleeve and jet-o-vator. The pump in its wore out state pushed the boat to a speed of 55mph, never cavitated, launched
hard. I felt like it was time for a rebuild and wanted added performance. What i got was a pump that wont do 40mph, cavitates at
takeoff and under hard acceleration and a jet-o-vator thats worthless. Steve at Panther Jet was working with me to address the problems until the motor developed oiling issues. This spring i put in a 502 stroker 460 and tried to contact Steve but found out he is
gone. Tried to get help in addressing the pump issues but the are blowing me off and telling me i caused my own problems and the
pump is no longer in warranty. The cavitation is pretty bad and i am at a lost as what to do. If any one could give me some help i
would appreciate it.
This is a very sad statement (above) and what appears to be less than satisfactory customer service and customer relations , please call if we can help you ,I take calls 7 days a week . When a Panther jet drive works and is in good condition they seem to work well , I have riden in (and owned) a couple of pretty decent Panther driven boats . We were a authorzed Panther Dealer at one time until a business "falling out" with the company . We now as most know custom build the "Energized Panthers" from a kit we "Proto'd for American turbine as well as supplying repair parts (brgs ,seals, etc) and we do blueprinting of the Jets as well ....Tom
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