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Messages - obnoxious001

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151
Engine Mechanical / Electrical / Re: BBC casting numbers
« on: September 20, 2011, 08:55:11 PM »
I would like to see a thread EXACTLY outlining the differences, and ID, between the MK4, MK5 and MK6 blocks and what will/will not interchange.

I believe that I know most of the differences,, they are not that complex and mysterious.  The later blocks are termed Gen 5 and Gen 6, and the earlier ones MK IV.

Besides casting numbers,, the Gen 5 used a 10 bolt timing cover, similar to the MK IV timing cover, but they are not interchangeable, due to differences in the oil pan.  Gen 5 and 6 pans are the same, the MK IV different.  The Gen 6 timing cover is a 6 bolt cover.  I believe there may have been some crossover blocks between Gen 5 and 6 that didn't have the "proper" number of timing cover bolt holes.

The Gen 5 block has different water passages in the deck surface, and causes a sealing issue if you don't use Gen 5/6 style heads (including GM bowtie).  My understanding is that is one of the key reasons the Gen 6 block was developed, to allow aftermarket and MK IV cylinder heads to seal the water passages properly.  The cylinder head bolt pattern has remained the same for all three series of blocks. 

Gent 5 and Gen 6 blocks use a camshaft with a stepped nose, and therefore a different timing set.  The step allowed the use of a camshaft retaining plate to control thrust.  A MK IV style camshaft will fit into the block no problem, but requires the MK IV style timing set. 

Gen 5 and Gen 6 were the first of the factory roller cams, as far as I know, although there were some flat tappet cams in some of the Gen 5 I think.  The Gen 5/6 rollers use a new style roller lifter that requires the "dogbone" type stablilizers to hold the roller in line with the cam, and then a sheet metal "spider" that bolts into the valley to retain the 8 dogbones. 

The factory Gen5/6 cylinder heads are not set up for valve adjustment, they have rocker bolts instead of studs that retain the rocker arms, so for a performance application, the bolts should be changed to studs to allow for deviations in valve train geometry from factory pushrods and cams, or if you want to run a mechanical cam instead of hydraulic. 

Gen 5/6 harmonic balancers and flywheels/flexplates have a different counter weight, and of course the crankshafts are of the one piece rear main seal variety.  You can purchase a two piece rear main seal adapter and run a MK IV crankshaft in a Gen 5/6 block. 

One of the less obvious, but more important changes in the Gen 5/6 block is the oiling system.  It's considered a "priority main" oiling system, and is the same basic oiling system in the aftermarket blocks like Dart.  For long time users of the MK IV blocks, it's especially important to understand the two pressure bypass system in the newer blocks, one of which diverts oil to the oil cooler outlet and inlet cast into the block in front of the oil filter location. 

Another thing with the newer blocks is that GM recommended a maximum over bore of .060".  I have done some visual inspection of some of the blocks, but have not paid to have any sonic tested for wall thickness, so would have to say they have a reason for suggesting that limit. 

Most of the Gen 5/6 blocks lack provision for a mechanical fuel pump, but I think the tall deck (or truck block) still have it, as well as the Bowtie and also the HO 454 crate engines. 

Might have left out something,, but time for something for dinner!

152
Engine Mechanical / Electrical / Re: BBC casting numbers
« on: September 20, 2011, 08:32:53 PM »
GM Casting # 14044807...454T............Bowtie, MkIV, Tall deck, 4.25" bore or 4.500" bores


had no idea there were so many diff models of big blocks... I have a pair of these motors that came off out of a cigarette boat. I thought they were 572's for some reason. What are your thoughts on this block? and what does tall deck mean? and another stupid question... these blocks have a bow tie stamped into the side of them.. Does this mean anything?

The "bowtie" is the best of the GM blocks.  Just knowing the casting number will not automatically tell you the size of the engine.  With a 4.500" bore and 4.500" stroke you can have a 572 cubic inch engine. 

The "tall deck" means that the "deck" or surface that the cylinder heads bolt to is .400" further from the center of the crankshaft than a standard deck block.  They were originally used for truck engines, so some people call them truck deck blocks.  The truck engines had pistons with 4 piston rings instead of 3.

The advantage of a tall deck block is the ability to use longer connecting rods and straighten out rod geometry, which can actually promote better engine life (less cylinder wear), and better ring sealing, which translates to more power.  Instead of a stock 6.135" long rod, it's common to use rods as long as 6.700" and 6.800" long with certain off the shelf pistons. 

Bowtie blocks also came with either forged or billet main caps, and when the block came new from GM,, there was a sheet delivered with it showing the cylinder wall thickness on four sides of each cylinder. 

153
Engine Mechanical / Electrical / Re: BBC casting numbers
« on: September 20, 2011, 04:12:46 PM »
1975-87 4 bolt main 454 ...


now im sure this is a easy question too.. but how do i find out if its a gen 3, 4 or 5 ?  :screwy:

It's certainly a MK IV block, but unless I am wrong,, and the "445" block come either 2 or 4 bolt, but you must have it apart to have stated that it is a 4 bolt.

Also, the "7.4" on the side of the block designates 454 cubic inches.

The "K 2 3" should indicate that it's a 1983 block,, I forget if "K" is October,, seems like they don't use the letter "i", don't want to look it up right now, and the "2" means 2nd day of the month.

154
Engine Mechanical / Electrical / Re: What Plug wires to get? BBC
« on: September 12, 2011, 07:29:01 PM »
I know, stupid question but I put this off too long and now I need to get some wires ASAP :-[. I Have a BBC 454 w/ HEI. I need wires that have 90deg at both ends and have enough reach to go below the headers (basset). My question is, are there and plug wire sets I can purchase at my local autozone, kragen, napa etc... I really don't want to mess with the universals...


Thanks in advance,
JAmes
The universals are not that tough, but they sure look nice if you take the time to get them right.  I work from the front cylinders and then match the path of the next one down the line.  I use MSD 8.5mm on most engines. 

155
Engine Mechanical / Electrical / Re: Fuel pressure problem
« on: September 12, 2011, 01:34:06 AM »
Any help is greatly appreciated and if I do need a new pump, which one do you guys recommend and how many GPH do I need? I'm pretty sure it's a close to stock 1986 454. Thanks guys

If you test the electric pump and it's not working, why not just put a mechanical low pressure pump that requires no regulator, since you state the engine is close to stock.  I run mechanical pumps on engines making 600-700 HP.  I just feel they are simple, and not as prone to having problems. 

156
Engines / Engine Parts For Sale / Re: 600 HP 4 bolt 454 short block parts
« on: September 06, 2011, 09:42:47 PM »
Blower pistons and I might have to REALLY think about it!  :sly:

Ray

I may have enough pieces to put together a tall deck, blown 496 short block.

157
Engines / Engine Parts For Sale / Re: 600 HP 4 bolt 454 short block parts
« on: September 06, 2011, 08:25:49 PM »
Last chance before I assemble it and increase the price accordingly!

158
Engine Mechanical / Electrical / Re: Blower motor advice?
« on: September 06, 2011, 06:28:54 PM »
It's desktop dyno 2000, but the question was more general than specific to my comination. How important are good heads on a blower motor? I was surprised at the effect better heads had on the virtual engine, and wondered if the same gains applied in the real world. So can I cheap out and go with the Edelbrocks, or am I really losing 150 hp by not buying MUCH more expensive heads? It's my 6/71 blown, .9 underdriven, lets sa y 6-7lbs boosted 468 inch, 8.5 to 1 chevy motor, currently being rebuilt. I need a new cam that I'd like to get from Barry (Obnoxiuos racing Engines), and new heads.
Ralph

Did you happen to plug in any larger runner heads than the AFR?  Did you have all the flow numbers for both heads?  Did you happen to change lobe centers on the cam with both sets of heads? 

Maybe the marine Edelbrocks really do choke it down that much,, sure seems to be a huge difference.  I was just asking the questions because I didn't think it would be that necessary to use the larger CNC heads on a low boost engine.


159
Engine Mechanical / Electrical / Re: Blower motor advice?
« on: September 06, 2011, 02:28:43 PM »
So how important are good heads on a blower motor? Without any experience to fall back on, I've been playing on Desktop Dyno (I know, I know). I've been swapping heads on a virtual 468 Chevy big block, with a Crane 302/310 duration, .621/.632 lift hydraulic roller cam, part#HR240. How about an 80hp difference at 5000rpm, and 176hp at 6000, as the poorer heads start to fall off. Is it really that bad? From 728 to 552 hp, by switching from AFR2000-315 CNC heads to Edelbrock Marine #61559. About a $2000 cost difference in the heads, too.
Ralph

Without having all the information on your combination, including boost, it's difficult to know which of the numbers is more realisitic.  550 sounds low for a blown engine, I put together a pump gas(9.6-1) 468 that made 617 on the dyno with 990's.  I didn't take the time to look up the @.050" spec on your cam, or lobe center either. 

I don't spend the time messing with the desktop dyno now days, but have seen it fairly close on occasion, it depends how detailed and correct you get the details.

160
Crescent wrenches will work fine for assembly,, just have to use care.  The actual AN fitting wrenches do not work for assembly

3/8" (-6 AN) will work fine for your engine. 

Don't know who Pat's source is,, but Sweet Performance in Anaheim has some good pricing on the fittings and line you will need.

161
Engine Mechanical / Electrical / Re: How hard can it be?????
« on: August 30, 2011, 07:44:15 PM »
And obnoxious your thread made me want to try it myself even more.  I think the main goal is to research what clearances are best for my application and take to a good machine shop.  And it sounds like you are the guy for that.  So can I get a scjb quote on your good machine work on my block, crank and heads.

The shop that I use for machine work is going through some changes right now, probably not the best time to send someone over there.  I was tossing out some general prices just to show how quickly you could get over $2400 totaled up. 

As I offered previously, if you PM me, I will give you my phone number

162
Engine Mechanical / Electrical / Re: How hard can it be?????
« on: August 29, 2011, 08:45:11 PM »
So I've got my motor broken down and ready to fix.  So a local shop around here says they will rebuild it and give it back to me completely sealed for 2400.  That's more than I want to spend.  So I was wondering if I sent everything out to be machined and then put it back together myself how much would I save.  The shop said they put new pistons, bearings, cam rockers and lifters.  Is that a good deal?   If I do all the same stuff myself would I save a lot of cash?  Also is my cam bad?  How do I know if I can keep it and reuse it?  And finally how hard is it to put the motor back together myself.  The guys in tv make It look easy.   Are there any special tools other than a torque wrench that I need.  Also how do I know if I have all my clearances correct.  Last thing I want to do is save five hundred bucks putting it together only to pull it apart again and spend the 2400 to have it done.   So any advice is really appreciated and if anyone wouldn't mind helping me I would be very appreciative in the form of ice cold beer.

$2400 sounds very inexpensive, depending on the quality of parts and labor they are supplying.  Did they give you a written estimate or parts list?  If that's just "stock" type cast pistons and valve train type stuff, might be able to see it. 

Something you need to ask a shop when you have a marine engine built is what kind of piston to wall clearance they use,, and bearing clearances are important also.

Try looking up some of the parts you would need, pistons, rings, cam bearings, rod bearings, rear main seal, gaskets (good ones,, not just a rebuilders type set)  Cam and lifters,, were you happy with the performance you had?  They can't be supplying "performance" type rocker arms as part of that price

Ballpark on block machining,, hot tank, bore, hone, surface, $400,,, valve job, assuming your valves are fine,,, maybe $250-$300,,, new valve springs to match the cam,, depends which camshaft.

Start adding some of the stuff up,, what about engine balancing,, I bet that's not part of their $2400? 

As far as tools and assembly,, here is a link to one of my engine build threads.  http://www.performanceboats.com/dyno/59303-mild-pump-gas-454-dyno-test.html

It gives you some idea of tools that I have and use.  Certainly lots of guys assembly their own engines with much less in the way of special tools, many times without verifying bearing clearances, etc.  A jet boat engine has to run roughly double the RPM of a street engine, under constant load.

Back to the top,, $2400 is too cheap for a "performance" build, I suggest talking to a couple of other shops as comparison. 

If you have a list of the parts they are going to supply, you can PM me for my phone number and I will try to help with my opinion as well.




163
I have had the crank ground,, rings and bearings due in UPS today.  $1180 now, ready to assemble, including all new cam, rod and main bearings, rear main seal and moly rings.


164
Engines / Engine Parts For Sale / Re: Machined 2 bolt 454 block
« on: August 29, 2011, 02:01:09 PM »
Machinework would cost more than $250?

165
Engines / Engine Parts For Sale / Re: need 454 oil pan (jet boat)
« on: August 29, 2011, 12:40:46 PM »
Be careful... A 9" pan would not clear the berk intake housing (loader 'bosses') and get a good driveline angle. A truck pan did the same thing (454, berk pump, 4pt. mounts, standard h-bar driveline). ended up using a chevelle/corvette pan (7-1/2").

Thats on my junk
Daniel
Mash on it

Right,, he and I talked on the phone and I explained that he would need to check clearance first.  Guess he is swapping a BBC for an Olds.

166
The No Wake Zone / Re: Where can I pickup a push pull cable 17' long
« on: August 29, 2011, 12:04:08 AM »
I would 2nd Rex Marine, I was one of the original two employees when Jack Rex owned it, and still know the current owners very well. 

But,another idea, keeping in mind the cost of gasoline now days might be Glenwood, since they are right there in Gardena.

http://www.glenwoodmarine.net/


167
Engines / Engine Parts For Sale / Re: need 454 oil pan (jet boat)
« on: August 26, 2011, 04:46:29 PM »
sorry the motor is a 1991 so i think thats gen v right?

It should be.  I have a couple of pans that might work, in Glendora

1st one is a 9 1/2" deep, 10 qt pan with pickup  $150

2ne one is a mint condition Milodon supercomp type, with windage tray that fastens to pan so no special studs are necessary, $250

168
Engine Mechanical / Electrical / Re: need help with carb tuning...
« on: August 26, 2011, 02:39:58 PM »

does anyone tune with a wideband and an O2 sensor?  that seems like the BEST way to go about reaching stoich.  ive done a lot of tuning on my old mustangs and such... it seems like pulling plugs and guessing works, but theres gotta be a more accurate way?

Innovate makes a good one, saves a bunch of time and guesswork.  I have one of their LM-1 models, just need a bung in the dry part of the exhaust for the O2 sensor.

169
Engine Mechanical / Electrical / Re: need help with carb tuning...
« on: August 26, 2011, 12:17:05 AM »
If the plugs are that light after idling around and back to trailer and stuff,, you are probably leaner than you think.  To get a better reading, you want to take a plug wrench in the boat with you,, make a pass, and then as quickly as it is safely possible, slow down and get the engine shut off.  No idling if possible.  If you want to go back to the beach or trailer to swap the jets, no problem, but take the reading without the idling first.


170
Engine Mechanical / Electrical / Re: BBC Gen lV vs. Gen. V
« on: August 26, 2011, 12:05:37 AM »
Hi, i bought a bell housing, front motor plate and the guy told me its for a gen lV motor i talked to alot of other people and they say they dont see why it wont fit a gen V motor does anyone know? how bout exhaust logs? and oil pan?, valve covers, just wondering when i buy parts if it matters what gen its for

The oil pans are different, as are the timing covers, but otherwise mounts, exhaust, and valve covers all will work fine. 

Harmonic balancer and flywheel/flexplate will fit, but the counter weight is a bit different so it will be out of balance.

171
Engine Mechanical / Electrical / Re: need help choosing a fuel pump
« on: August 26, 2011, 12:03:00 AM »
got some lake time today. fuel pressure guage is reading around 2 psi at idle and get up to 6 at 3500rpm.

didnt have a chance to hold it WOT (2 year old's first time out, didnt want to scare her)) didnt want it to turn off on me again

everything else seems to be working well, 14volts, something like 70 psi for the oil pressure, and 160* water temp at idle after its warmed up

2 pounds is not adequate pressure, figure minimum of 5 psi, and 7-9 is better.

The Clay Smith is a good pump, but probably not necessary for a medium performance engine.  I say that mostly because it will also require a fuel pressure regulator, so you will be spending quite a bit of money.

I was getting some of the "old school" type fuel pumps that do not require a regulator,, make 7-9 pounds, have run them on a couple of dyno engines with no drop in fuel pressure at 6300 RPM.  One of those was a 632 cubic inch engine with two 850 Quick Fuel carbs, so you can imagine the fuel consumption on that one. 

172
Engines / Engine Parts For Sale / Re: need 454 oil pan (jet boat)
« on: August 25, 2011, 02:14:51 AM »
if you have anything let me know 951-522-3816 call or text anytime

You didn't state whether you need a MK IV or Gen 5/6 pan?

173
so should i install the gaskets dry or with the "right stuff" on both sides of the gasket too? i just dont wanna get them on and realize.......oh crap i should've done that too.

I would suggest using a thin coat of high temp silicone (the red or copper one) on both sides of the gaskets.  The "right stuff" may be similar enough, but I am not familiar with it.

174
Engine Mechanical / Electrical / Re: Log & Snail Question
« on: August 20, 2011, 10:21:58 PM »
Trying to do that now. Can't get the plug out of the back port.  :mad: Trying not to strip or break anything.

Heating the aluminum around the plug with a propane torch will many times make it easy to remove a stuck plug.

175
Engine Mechanical / Electrical / Re: Lean is MEAN
« on: August 11, 2011, 12:00:26 AM »
, but Barry's probably already got a short, sweet, easily field useable one to address stuff like this on bowties.



I don't do it in the field, but you could use a dead stop in the #1 spark plug hole, along with your silver marker.

I always verify TDC before I bolt the heads on an engine, when I can use a dial indicator.

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