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Messages - Flusher

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1
Boat Showcase / Re: New Boat
« on: August 24, 2022, 09:43:59 am »


It?s getting a Geradot upright injector that is getting flowed right now.

Who do you use?

2
Engine Mechanical / Electrical / Re: 460 issues. Maybe head gasket?
« on: August 19, 2022, 12:59:01 pm »




You should be able to get loaner tools from your local chain auto parts store.

3
Engine Mechanical / Electrical / Re: 460 issues. Maybe head gasket?
« on: August 19, 2022, 09:51:00 am »


Any suggestions on where to start?

The cheapest and easiest things first.  A compression test to see the overall condition of the engine.  It wouldn't be difficult to pressure test the engine.  Also a leakdown test. 

Where else could the water be coming from?  Exhaust?

These can help you pinpoint the source before you really start tearing into the engine and spending big money.

It is better to have a direction and not just throw money at it.

4
Engine Mechanical / Electrical / Re: Cam selection need help
« on: July 31, 2022, 07:46:46 pm »
Thanks for the responses I have a better understanding of what it's going to take and should just enjoy the boat for the rest of the season.then dive into it ....


Sent from my motorola one 5G ace using SoCal Jet Boats mobile app
There may not be a "next season"

5
You shouldn't be idling your jet boat on the trailer.  You are killing the packings and taking life out of the impeller and wear ring.

6
Engine Mechanical / Electrical / Re: Cam selection need help
« on: July 30, 2022, 08:34:50 am »
Would you be prepared to do additional machine work to the heads to support additional lift?  Otherwise, I think ~.480 lift will be your limit, because of retainer-to-guide clearance.  I also think ~.480 lift will be the limit before you start experiencing piston-to-valve interference.  Regardless, you should measure before you choose a cam.

It is worth pulling a valve cover to get your head casting numbers.  Many stock small block port's flow stalls at .450 lift.

I would recommend doing this in the off season, it could turn into a can of worms, that would consume precious time on the water.

7
Jet Pumps / Re: WJ intake?
« on: July 26, 2022, 06:13:10 pm »
Acquire some (12oz) Sea Goin' Poxy Putty.

Remove the suspect screws

Clean out any rust, dirt, incorrect adhesive/sealer, and anything else the new epoxy won't stick to.

Blow sanding dust out with clean dry air.  Any remaining sanding dust will act as a release agent and the fresh epoxy will not adhere properly.

Mix up equal parts of Sea Goin' Poxy Putty so  that the total amount is about the volume of a golf ball.  Use different sticks to remove each Part A and Part B so that you do not cross-contaminate the remainder of each container.

Note:  If cross-contamination occurs, it will ruin the epoxy as the curing process starts.

Have a cup of water handy.  Pack the holes full of the mixed epoxy.  Make sure that the epoxy squeezes out of the top of the holes, ensuring that there are no voids.  Wet your hands so that the epoxy doesn't stick to your fingers.  You can sculpt the epoxy to shape.  Work quickly so that you finish before the epoxy kicks.  You can clean up with a wet rag.

The bottom of the hull should be more or less flush with the surrounding fiberglass.  The epoxy should be slightly lower than the top surface of the intake.

Wait 24 hours.

From the top, drill down, all the way through the holes in the intake with a 1/4" drill bit.

You will need at least one 1/4" countersunk screw to measure that you are countersinking to the correct depth.  With an 82-degree countersink bit, countersink just deep enoug, so that no part of the screw head is hanging below the fiberglass.

Measure for screw lengths.  Most likely, you will need two, maybe three different length screws.  The rear of your oil pan sump is probably sitting directly over the front four screws, therefore the length of the front four screws will be the most critical.  I prefer stainless nylon locking jam nuts with AN washers.  You are probably going to need to cut the screws to fit.  You will probably also end up with different length screws for the front four holes.  I prefer three full threads protruding past the top of the nut, however one full thread is sufficient.  If the screw is flush with the top of the nut, or if the nylon is engaging the chamfer, the nut will come loose.

Note:  If the oil pan contacts the screws, the screws will surely wear a hole through the oil pan.

Cut and chamfer the screws to fit.

Note:  do not mix up the order in which the screws are to be installed.

Mix up a little more epoxy and form a bead just under the head of each bolt.  Be careful not to get epoxy on the threads where the nut will start.

Note:  have all of your tools and hardware ready before you mix the epoxy.

Install the screws and have a helper inside the boat ready to torque the nuts.  The intake hardware does not need to be gorilla tight.

After all the screws are torqued, fill over the top of all of the screw heads, so they can be sanded flush.

Note:  Sanding Sea Goin' Poxy Putty is a miserable experience.  It is worth the effort to sculpt the epoxy to near net shape, leaving only enough to sand flush.  Do not smear a big glob and expect to sand it smooth.  The fiberglass actually sands easier than the epoxy.  You need to be careful that you don't make the bottom wavy.

It is very important that the area around the intake be smooth and straight.  This area is the interface between the hull and the water.  Very minor low spots and imperfections can be filled with Bondo Glass fiberglass filler.  Finish sand with 80 grit so that the direction of sanding scratches are all inluine, front to rear.

It would be a good idea to seal the raw glass, epoxy, and Bondo with at least primer.  Finish scuff with 80 grit, sanding front to rear.

Final Note:  While you are there, make sure the transition from the fiberglass intake into the aluminum intake is seamless.

Cheers,

Joe

8
Jet Pumps / Re: WJ intake?
« on: July 25, 2022, 06:04:07 pm »
I'm struggling to see the six bolts around the front.  The eight around the back look like the correct countersunk bolts.

Just to verify that everything is as it should be, the intake should be set with Heavy Duty Sea Goin' Poxy Putty and nothing else.   All of the load from thrust is transferred to the keel through this bond.

The intake screws provide a secondary mechanical attachment to the epoxy adhesive bond.  The screws themselves should be epoxy set to fill gaps, provide additional support, and seal the holes.

The screws can create a lot of drag, so it is good practice to fill and smooth over the top of the screws with epoxy.  When finished, it should feel like the screws are not even there.

9
Hulls / Re: Fastest hull for 18-20' lake boat
« on: July 22, 2022, 05:31:09 pm »
What are the fastest hulls (non drag race) that you could use regularly and still be the fastest guy on the lake?  Sanger?  Rogers? Hondo? Daytona?  Others??
How fast is the crowd at your lake?  Some are pretty damn fast.  What you are asking for is a tall order, there is always going to be someone faster.

You really need to establish exactly what you are looking for.  I will assume that you are looking for an acceleration contest type of river racer and not Water Speed Record.

If you are contemplating ever taking your boat to a track, NJBA limits open jet boats to 145 MPH.  So, now we are talking quickest and not fastest, unless you see a capsule boat in your future.

For any serious contender, you would be at a disadvantage without aerodynamic lift.  I have heard that the TPR Stealth is the current fastest hull, however that may be a biased statement.  Stealth, Cheyenne, Daytona, and Placecraft are all top contenders in tunnel boats.  The pickle fork design makes it easy to mount a front wing.  However, tunnels depart greatly from your "could use regularly" request.  But then again, that depends on your definition of "could use regularly."

The only V-hulls that incorporate aerodynamic lift are gullwings and some Rogers/Advantage hulls with dropped chines.  I have heard that Rogers tend to hit the wall, as far as safely going fast, around 120 and I believe gullwings have pushed into the mid 130s.  Anything beyond that is really pushing the limits of safety.

The next factor to consider is weight.  It has been determined that 70lbs is equal to 1/10 of a second in the quarter mile.  Getting back to your "could use regularly" scenario, a light-layup hull may not be for you.  A light-layup hull is not going to be the family truckster nor fare well caught out in white caps.  If speed is your thing, look to save weight wherever you realistically can.

What kind of horsepower are you considering?  I would strongly suggest either turbo or centrifugal supercharger.

10
Jet Pumps / Re: Intake machining question
« on: June 30, 2022, 03:29:33 pm »
Looks awesome!  I really want to dive into my pump.  I think its all screwed up but there is not a lot of info for a large 21' jet with delta pad.
What would you like to do?

11
Jet Pumps / Re: Loader Help
« on: June 24, 2022, 12:57:53 pm »


Okay so I am shopping tonight more questions for you! Buying the Manuel floor mount place diverted machined for  inserts. My questions are should I buy the place diverted droop or the berkley droop? Also is the bolt on place diverted ride plate worth it?

For mini-droops, I like the Place Diverter HPH and American Turbine has something in between a steering adapter and a mini-droop.  I think there is merit to both designs, but without testing, it's only theory.

For full-droops, I like American Turbine and older Berkeley.  Honestly, I haven't looked at any of the new Berkeley stuff.  Between the PD full-droop and the American Turbine/Berkeley, without doing back-to-back testing, I couldn't say.  My guess is that you probably wouldn't notice a difference.  However, if you want the PD bolt-on ride plate, your choice is already determined.

Typically, with a standard intake and a <20' hull would get a full-droop.  Heavy hulls may not be able to take advantage of a full-droop without more horsepower.  There may be an advantage to not bending the water.  A full-droop lowers the thrust point, so adding one may induce some porpoising.  It's always best if you can try it first to see if you will like it.

12
Jet Pumps / Re: Loader Help
« on: June 20, 2022, 11:13:54 am »


I was told you can see how well your loader is working by the pressure on you water guage in the intake manifold, is that true?

Not true

Tap the suction before the impeller  1/8-27NPT for pressure gauge(s).  If one gauge, tap at 9-o-clock, directly opposite the cooling water port.  If you really want to "dial it in," tap as high and low for two gauges, roughly 11-o-clock and 7-o-clock.  You are concerned with the impeller inlet pressure, which will be a dynamic pressure, because the water is flowing.

Disclaimer:  it's really difficult to do with gauges.  Usually a data system is used to record through a pass.

I will post pictures, tonight, of where to tap.

13
The No Wake Zone / Re: Found boat
« on: June 20, 2022, 10:02:12 am »
Need to give that fool a little fentanyl.

In all seriousness, I'm just around the corner from you.  I'd be happy to help you any way I can (except the fentanyl).

Good luck

14
Jet Pumps / Re: Loader Help
« on: June 20, 2022, 06:41:49 am »
Has the current loader been tuned to your pump/boat? That's where I'd start.

Dan'l
As Dan'l stated, you can try cutting the loader ramps back, little-by-little, to see if you start picking up in the direction that you want to go.

15
Jet Pumps / Re: Loader Help
« on: June 20, 2022, 06:38:30 am »
Is the pump unloading now?

You didn't mention a shoe and ride plate.  Definitely an off-season modification as ut requires pulling, machining, and resetting your intake.  I would start prioritizing that into your grand plan.

Without a shoe, you want the loader ramps hanging down below keel slightly.  You would want a more aggressive loader to compensate for a lack of shoe.  "How aggressive" is going to be a compromise between loading and MPH.  You want just enough so that you have the last amount of drag with the most suction pressure loading the impeller.

I would prioritize a Place Diverter 1st on your list.

A bowl stuffer is one of those things you do when there isn't anything left to do.  Prioritize a stuffer last.

An inducer requires pulling the shaft for machining.  That requires either pulling the pump or engine to get the shaft out.  Probably best as an off-season modification.

16
The No Wake Zone / Re: Found boat
« on: June 18, 2022, 11:02:18 pm »
Wow, stoked for you.

Take tools, a battery, fuel, and a way to at least fill the fliat bowls to see if you can start it.

I would go and scrutinize every little thing that you need to repair, like does it run?  Has it sucked up any rocks?  Why has it been parked?

Everything today costs billions of dollars and it looks like the seller knows that operating that boat does as well, otherwise they wouldn't be throwing trash in it.

When you determine how much you want to spend, have that cash in one pocket.  Fan out the cash in front of the seller.  $3000 in bills laid out across the deck looks like a lot more than $4000 sounds.

In my experience, if I want something bad enough, I just get it and don't look back.  How long would it take you to earn back the difference between what the seller wants and what you want to spend?  Is it worth watching someone else driving around in your dream?

Someone bought what should have been my boat out from under me.  I had already made the deal with the guy after a thorough inspection.  Some POS walked in, with only 75% of our agreed price, right as we were starting the paperwork.  The kid fanned out the cash and the seller changed his mind.  I said, "I'm giving you full price."  The seller said, "The kid's got cash now."  That's never going to happen again.

17
Jet Pumps / Re: A aluminum impeller
« on: June 18, 2022, 10:21:10 pm »
A day cruiser is a big heavy boat.  Anything smaller than an A cut is going to suck everywhere but top speed.

I wouldn't recommend going smaller than an A cut.

Consider this, a larger impeller will be easier on fuel consumption during operation.  Are you the type of end user who is out cruising around with the family, or are you out making passes?  Where is the engine going to spend most of it's time, peak horsepower or cruising around?

You can cut a larger impeller down, to increase RPM.  You can (correctly) detail the trailing edges to reduce RPM, however you can only drop a few hundred RPM.  You can't bring a B cut back to an A cut.

Price out stainless impellers.  I wouldn't want to guess wrong or be misled at current prices.  You will spend an easy $3K with the SS impeller, 17-4 shaft, new wear ring, insulator, and thrust bearing minimum.  A BC cut impeller costs exactly the same as a AA cut impeller.

I would try the impeller you have now, to see where your RPM is, then adjust your cut accordingly.  It won't cost you anything except that it is easier to pull the shaft with the engine already out.

18
Sorry to hear about your troubles.

How did the old spark plugs look?   You would see aluminum specks on the porcelain from detonation.

I'm sure that the machine shop checked the flatness of both the block and the heads.  Just to be sure, what were the findings?

Different types of gaskets require different surface roughness, achieved during the machining process, in order to seal properly.  Is yours appropriate for the gaskets you are using?

I have to ask, because I see a lot of improperly plumbed boats.

Do you have the water line, from the suction housing, plumbed into the front of the engine block, at both water pump ports?  There should be a tee or wye so that each side of the engine block is supplied with equal water flow.  The water jackets on each bank are separate and there is no flow from left to right.

You didn't mention what type of intake manifold you have.  Most use some type of automotive manifold with a thermostat provision.  The water should exit the timing cover end of the heads.  Through the thermostat provision, cast into the manifold, is a good choice.  If you have a manifold that doesn't have a single outlet from both heads, you need an outlet hose coming from each head, to a tee or better yet, a wye, and eventually dumping overboard.

There are various ways to plumb log exhaust manifolds, either before the engine, to preheat the water or after the engine.  I don't want to get into a debate over log manifolds, I'm only concerned that both sides of the engine have sufficient water flow.  You did say, you "have water flow coming out of the pisser on the side of the boat," that would indicate dry headers.  How much water flow?  Hopefully more than a trickle.

The following is my opinion, and it is not a popular opinion:

150-degrees is too hot for your water temperature.  Water temperature really means nothing.  What is important is the temperature of the components of the engine and how they relate to each other with clearance to move properly.  Oil temperature is a better indication of what is happening inside your engine.

The cooling water is plumbed off the suction housing, between the trailing edges of the impeller and the wear ring.  If you have an A cut impeller, there is 1/8" gap around the outside of the impeller, between the impeller and bowl, which is a cross-sectional area of 1.78sq/in.  If you have a AA, that gap reduces to just 1/32" with an area of 0.45sq/in.  Both areas are much bigger than hoses and fittings downstream.  However, the diverter nozzle is a huge leak and I don't think the engine gets sufficient flow during extended periods of ideling, such as ideling through the channel at Havasu.

Every hose, fitting, and the water jackets within the engine itself are a restriction to flow.  If a smaller impeller is installed, the water flow through the already restrictive system is reduced at any given RPM.  Example, water flow at 3000 RPM will be greater with an A cut impeller than with a BC cut impeller.

What does all that mean?

Flow is going to take the path of least resistance.  The diverter nozzle is much bigger and a shorter path than any part of the cooling system.  At idle, you will have much less cooling flow than when under way.  The water is going to get hot at idle

While under way, water flowing through the cooling system will have a higher velocity compared to that of a car.  There will be less time that the water is in contact with the surfaces of the water jackets.  To see an explanation of this, see https://sciencing.com/calculate-time-heat-water-8028611.html

If the velocity of the water is slowed so that the water temperature reaches 150-degrees, the water is moving too slow to properly extract heat from the engine.  That's more than doubling the ambient temperature of the lake water.

To operate a car engine, with a closed-loop cooling system, at 160-degrees, the temperature of the water coming out of radiator is not half the temperature of the water entering the radiator.  The (cooled) water coming out of the radiator is way above ambient air temperature, enough to burn you if you grab the lower radiator hose.  The number that I remember is that a properly functioning automotive cooling system should keep the coolant temperature about 80-degrees above ambient air temperature.

In a jet boat, while under way, you should be able  to touch the front of the head without blustering your finger.  The front surface of the head should feel "uncomfortably" warm.  If the head surface is so hot that it will blister your finger, how much hotter are the cylinder walls and valve guides?  There will also be a greater temperature differentials across the decks etc., increasing distortion.  Keep in mind that you have ice-cold lake water being used to cool the engine, not water that is already hot enough to burn you, as would be coming out of a car radiator.

I'm also not a fan of thermostats on jet boats, unless you have a closed-loop cooling system.

19
Jet Pumps / Re: A aluminum impeller
« on: June 10, 2022, 07:36:59 pm »
It's not possible to spin a mixed flow Berkeley clone pump too many RPM.

Actually, the pump will stall the engine where the horsepower curves cross on the dyno sheet and the pump graph.

It's possible, if you have an aluminum impeller and a 304 stainless shaft, and you beat on it, you could break the impeller and/or twist the splines on the shaft with that horsepower.

About one thousand horsepower is the limit for a Berkeley suction housing.  You are already over the limit for aluminum impellers and 304 shafts.  However, it really makes a difference WHERE your engine is making that power AND how you drive it.

20
Jet Pumps / Re: Ride plate tuning / issues
« on: June 10, 2022, 07:24:43 pm »
4-degrees up, relative to the keel, is a good safe starting point, for a V-hull.  Yes, the ride plate will have a slight bend near the shoe.  It should not have an "S" shaped bend (hook) near the ride plate.  If it does, your cradle might need to be machined.

21
Jet Pumps / Re: Weld repair dominator cast aluminum impeller?
« on: March 30, 2022, 04:23:00 pm »
You might also try Place Diverter.  They own Heritage Jets.  Their stainless wear rings are really good quality.

22
Jet Pumps / Re: Weld repair dominator cast aluminum impeller?
« on: March 30, 2022, 04:03:08 pm »
Good luck

23
Jet Pumps / Re: Weld repair dominator cast aluminum impeller?
« on: March 30, 2022, 12:48:04 pm »
That's a lot of wear.  That didn't just happen.

24
Jet Pumps / Re: Weld repair dominator cast aluminum impeller?
« on: March 30, 2022, 11:02:21 am »


I?m not sure why it broke, I assume I sucked up a rock or stick. There was no vibration and was running fine. I only took it apart to replace the wear ring (my rpm was rising). It?s only on that 1 vein and the crescent shape crack goes all the way threw on 1 side and is slightly bent. But with a brass hammer it won?t pop back into its original position.


As far as adding a sleeve to the aluminum impeller I think it would be fairly easy to do and I imagine stainless on stainless would wear down much slower with the small sand particles? Does a stainless impeller last longer then an aluminum one all things bring equal?


I never thought about the road grime and will definitely start doing that. But I do all the other tips

The RPM wouldn't increase with wear ring clearance.  There was a thread, a few years back, where someone purchased a boat that had a top speed of 35 MPH.  Turns out, the pump was assembled without a wear ring.  The hit and top speed would suffer, but it wouldn't just start riding the rev limiter if you let it go unchecked.

That damage to the trailing edges will cause RPM to increase.  Also damage to the leading edges.  How do the leading edges look by the way?  Any signs of cavitation?

Yes, a stainless impeller, combined with a stainless wear ring is the most wear resistant.  The softer the material, the faster it will wear.

One thing I have thought about was spray welding hard facing material and OD grinding the impeller.  I don't know if there is a similar process for aluminum, because most customers, with an aluminum impeller, get pretty long life.  You might have access to and/or be familiar to just such a process.

P.S.  I'm sure you are aware that welding will kill the heat treating in that area, which is highly stressed.

P.P.S.  Front and rear axial clearance is slightly more important (within reason) than radial clearance.

25
Jet Pumps / Re: Weld repair dominator cast aluminum impeller?
« on: March 29, 2022, 06:54:24 pm »
Whats up everyone Im new to the group...

2) is is possible to press on a stainless sleeve onto the the impeller across from the wear ring so it does not wear down so quickly?

First off, welcome.

Anything is possible with enough time, money, and talent.  All of that is better spent on something that would make a difference.

Unless you are boating in unusually dirty water, a lot of wear comes from running the pump out of water, road grime from towing, and driving the boat on/off the beach.

It's good practice to dunk the boat in water first thing, completely submerging the pump.  Then pull forward to let the water drain, rinsing as much of the road grime away as possible.

When beaching, don't drive up onto the beach.  Kill the engine while still in deeper water.  Jets can suck up sand and debris from about 3' away.

When shoving off, push the boat out into waste deep water and bounce it a few times to get the debris out of the impeller.

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