SoCal Jet Boats
Tech Talk => Projects => Topic started by: Havasukona455 on April 10, 2014, 10:48:38 AM
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Hey guys. My old boat had a gate valve coming off the pump and connected to hose going to the motor so I could control the temp of the motor. On my new boat there is no gate valve and while running it on the hose last night it got up to 190 but the motor didn't feel that hot. So I be running a gate valve on there ?
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Does it have a regulator. I would think it would have to have something otherwise you'd be blowing gaskets.
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When I got my boat, it had zero water control on it. Well gaskets went and had to rebuild the motor... If it worked on your last boat, put one on.
Have you checked your oil recently?
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Put one on! GT has lots of info on this subject on here....
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I am pro gate valve and pressure regulator but I will admit my kona does not have one on it and hasn't since I have owned it. Never ran hot or cold, temps were always within 140-180 and thank god I never had a hose come loose or blow. I'd run a gate valve right off the pump and then the pressure regulator.
But idling on the trailer and running hot say two things, either you have crappy water pressure at home or your not getting enough water through you motor. I'd pull all the cooling plugs on the motor and heads (not the freeze plugs) and run water through it and flush the sand out and start putting them back in starting at the bottom working your way to the top. After all that I'd pull the hoses and replace them and make sure the fittings are not plugged. And most importantly are the hoses ran right and is there a thermostat.
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i dont see how cold water from a hose would allow any motor to build heat unless you had the hose turned wayyyy down.
tuning for temp on the trailer is compleeeeetely different than tuning it on the lake. not to mention lake water temp can change and you might need to open or close it some to adjust.
not only should you have a gate valve to control engine temperature, but you should have it there in case you have a leak somewhere in your cooling system. a 1/2" hose will flow some serious water if you snagged a hose on a beach chair or something. you'd sink in minutes and if you started the boat to power it to shore, you'd have a 60+ psi 1/2" leak.
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I thought so too but I didnt see anything on the line. I bought a gate valve to put inline. Oil is fine no water on the dipstick or anything. I did pull the hoses coming off the t stat and one had a little bit of black crap in it from the hose I'm guessing. What scares me is the po said it would run about 190 to 200 so he pulled the heads and cleaned the water jackets out put new gaskets and buttoned it back up but never tested it. I'm hoping he did a good job with it and not half ass. I'm gonna out the gate valve in and test it at puddingstone later today. Not sure about the water pressure in the hose cause my brother turned the water on.
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Another question I've always wondered is can you turn the hose on first and then start the boat ? I've always started the boat then turned the water on
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Another question I've always wondered is can you turn the hose on first and then start the boat ? I've always started the boat then turned the water on
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I turn mine water in first. So if there is a reason as to why not. I'd like to know
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If you're running headers, you can fill cylinders with water before you get the boat fired up. Always start the motor then turn on the water. Turn off the water then kill the motor. Water running in an engine that isn't running is not good.
The gate valve to control water temp/ pressure debate is as old as the Ford Chevy debate. My.02 is the gate valve is simply a safety device to stop water from coming in the boat if a hose happens to break like Kay0tyk explained . Jet boat motors run cold and that should be taken into account when the motor is built and the tolerances are set..
Oil temp is much more critical. I'm always afraid if you close down the valve to create heat you may be over restricting the volume and creating steam pockets and hot spots. When do you adjust your valve at idle, 1/2 throttle, full throttle? Each one of these settings is going to create a different temp.
I think 1 line in and 2 or 3 lines out is the simplest way, and understand that 130*-150* in a boat with an open cooling system is normal. I personally regulate my water pressure by having 2 dump lines that are -10 plus my headers. If you give your cooling system multiple exits, it can't over pressure, and you can still keep the water volume up. It's more important to warm the oil before hammering it than water temp.
But That's just me.
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I have a regulator but I think I'm going to add a gate valve for the just in case of a leak reason. Not by this weekend but for sure right after.
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Gate valves suck. >:D
Sometimes they work and they are cheap but not made to control flow and no one ever said shit got water in my block cause my regulator let me down. How many milkshakes have been caused by boats with gates only off the pump??? Ur house water hose is like 30 psi ur pump makes 200 psi. So trailer test dont count.
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I have had an olds and ford... ford isnt a worry so much with logs but olds and chevy its a must on flow/pressure. Any jet boat should have a hard line off pump to valve just in case you blow a hose.
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I always use a hydraulic hose from a push lock fitting in the pump to a gate valve, I don't do rigid pipe in the pump because of the chance of breakage.
A gate valve works great. Once you get the boat in the water, you adjust it at idle, let it get the outlet temp to about 150*F and it should be fine unless it is piped horribly wrong. The water temperature will tank as soon as the engine speeds up.
Like icecreaman says, ALWAYS start the engine first, then water on, when done, water off then engine off. It takes about two seconds for this to go horribly wrong.
Also, if it wont stay running because of a tune issue or something, get that straightened out first. You do not need to run water if you are only running it for a minute or two.
I recommend backing off the shaft packing on the pump if running it dry, it helps keep the rope seal from burning up. The packing should only be tightened in the water and just tight enough to see about a drip every couple minutes.
The gate valve debate is silly because NOBODY has ever come up with something better with fewer moving parts. Until that happens, I will use a gate valve over anything else. So simple it's almost stupid. :sly:
GT
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Yeah well any Gate valve u look up says its not to regulate flow
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Heres another
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No manufacturer suggests gate to regulate flow
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I really don't car what ANY of those say...
The regulator you have on your boat is not rated for untreated water either, yet, here we are. :sly:
These valves have been used on these boats for over forty years, so for you to say they don't work is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. :screwy:
Somehow I knew this was going to happen. :thumbdown:
GT
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Last post for me in this thread.
A 3/4" gate valve is used in 90% of all cases. The reason is simple, there are numerous 3/4" fittings available to adapt a garden hose adapter, the valve is GROSSLY oversize so that it won't plug up with debris, you can find them ANYWHERE, Ace Hardware, HD, Coast to Coast, Lowes, just to name a few.
I know 100 people are going to tell you that you should have all this fancy pressure relief, pressure regulator, thermostatic, whiz bang crap, I am here to tell you that you simply do not. I could get your boat to work perfect with a simple stainless steel fender washer drilled out to the proper orifice size inserted inside the garden hose adapter. That is if you feel it necessary to use a ball valve instead of a gate. Or you could drop the $18 on a ten turn Red and White and a zip tie and be done with it, for the life of the boat.
GT
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experience over knowledge sometimes huh GT. me personally I will run both gate and pressure relief because with your LIFE and others you cant be to safe gate to reduce and shut off flow in an emergency relief to help my motor out 90 to 100$ for both whats your boat or lives worth..
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Well testing went bad. I put the gate valve on before I left opened it about 3/4 and ran the boat for 4 minutes. Before I knew it the temp was at 190 and climbing. Shut it off and let it sit for about ten minutes. Started it back up with the gate valve all the way open and it went down to 140 with the motor at 2k rpms. Less then 30 seconds it's right back up to 190 and climbing 😡. There's gotta be a clogged line right ? Any help would be great guys
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Did u adjust it back down after runnung at 2grand when it went up to 190
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What exactly goes from ur pump to block? Any valve at all? And is thrre anything on the exit line
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Are u running logs or over transom headers
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I didn't back it down at all cause the temp only got down to 140 and that was it. At idle it would jump back up to 190 easily.
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There is no valve that regulates water to the block that's why I put the gate valve in. It's through transom exhaust
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Does it have a thermostat
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Got ya. I had a Tahiti with a BBC through transom headers never had a valve. Well if the valve was wide open and it did the same probly not an inlet issue
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I should also say my old boad with no valve had large lines and motor ran at like 100*
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Broke a promise by posting...
Can you describe how your system is plumbed?
There is no reason at all that it would run that warm. Something is amiss.
Typical through transom dealio...
Pump-control valve.
Control valve-tee.
Tee-lower hoses of exhaust log X2
Upper hose of exhaust log-front of block X2
Thermostat cover-risers
That's it.
Boat should run about 150 or so with the valve three or four turns open. If it don't, the block could be full of sand, there could be a blocked port somewhere, someone could have stuck a stat in the stat hole (throw it in the rubbish can), your pump's worn out, risers full of garbage, among a few others.
GT
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Broke a promise by posting...
Can you describe how your system is plumbed?
There is no reason at all that it would run that warm. Something is amiss.
Typical through transom dealio...
Pump-control valve.
Control valve-tee.
Tee-lower hoses of exhaust log X2
Upper hose of exhaust log-front of block X2
Thermostat cover-risers
That's it.
Bot should run about 150 or so with the valve three or four turns open. If it don't, the block could be full of sand, there could be a blocked port somewhere, someone could have stuck a stat in the stat hole (throw it in the rubbish can), your pump's worn out, risers full of garbage, among a few others.
GT
Just checked it right now and water lines are run exactly how you stated. There is no thermostat just open. Is it possible that the tee is no good or needs to be rebuilt ?
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Just checked it right now and water lines are run exactly how you stated. There is no thermostat just open. Is it possible that the tee is no good or needs to be rebuilt ?
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You said through transom exhaust.... Should not be anything in the tee but water.... ;)
I would disconnect the riser hoses and put some water through the system with a hose and see what up. There should be little to no restriction. Keep pulling chit apart until it rears it's ugly head.
Also, pull the drain plugs on the block and ensure she isn't full of sediment.
GT
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You said through transom exhaust.... Should not be anything in the tee but water.... ;)
I would disconnect the riser hoses and put some water through the system with a hose and see what up. There should be little to no restriction. Keep pulling chit apart until it rears it's ugly head.
Also, pull the drain plugs on the block and ensure she isn't full of sediment.
GT
Yeah I'm gonna start pulling off each hose one at a time and seeing if I can find the problem. Thanks for all your help gt. I'll let you know tomorrow what I find. I'm sure I'll have more questions as well
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Yeah I'm gonna start pulling off each hose one at a time and seeing if I can find the problem. Thanks for all your help gt. I'll let you know tomorrow what I find. I'm sure I'll have more questions as well
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Anytime.
GT
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I'll go with Experience, I have worked with engineers that write up info on parts and assembly's this and that for years. I've found over time these hot shot engineers don't have real world experience sure they are smart as hell and can design some badass things way beyond my capabilities. But when reality hits these parts go with experience.
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From a book I once read.. ;D
If today's engineers knew everything, we would never need any new engineers... :sly:
I will add this little known tidbit.. The original 3/8" mpt by barb fitting in the OEM Berkeley pumps that all you guys are removing for a piece of pipe had a 1/4" hole in it (some were 5/16").
In most cases, the ones that have had this fitting removed for the pipe are the ones with the most problems.
In some cases, the 1/4" hole would have been drilled out because more is better, right? Just something to think about when you are trying to figure out problems.
Gotta hit the hay... Naptime is callin' my name. ???
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I run a gate valve into a pressure relief valve. Kept milking my oil on my olds so i tore the motor down replaced all gaskets. Opened the gate valve 1 1/4 turn and have havent had a problem since. Idk what the pressure relief valves set at. I put a pressure valve on the intake and I've never seen over 11psi and it runs about 140 ish
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Very true GT!
I like to post this at work every once in a while to mess with my engineer buddy's. Maybe it can help a few people here.
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Well testing went bad. I put the gate valve on before I left opened it about 3/4 and ran the boat for 4 minutes. Before I knew it the temp was at 190 and climbing. Shut it off and let it sit for about ten minutes. Started it back up with the gate valve all the way open and it went down to 140 with the motor at 2k rpms. Less then 30 seconds it's right back up to 190 and climbing 😡. There's gotta be a clogged line right ? Any help would be great guys
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I would suggest that before you start tearing your motor down you verify that the water is actually getting that hot. I had a brand new sending unit from Autometer that was bad out of the box do this to me last your when we were all at Avi. Motor went from stone cold to 200* in under 2 minutes. As soon as the gauge started to move, it would just keep going. I had an IR temp gun with me and when I started checking the motor I couldn't find any spot on the motor that was even at 130* yet. I swapped the sender with one from a buddies boat and problem solved, motor was running 130*.
You said you were running on the trailer to begin with. Did you by chance feel the water exiting the motor? Did if feel hot and was it steaming? Do you have a good flow of water coming out the back? I find it hard to believe your motor can put that much heat in the water if it's flowing at a normal flow. If your actually getting hot, I would think the water flow out the back would be almost nothing. It would have to be almost complete blockage to slow the water long enough to get that much heat in it. I've seen motors in boats that had blown head gaskets bad enough to cut grooves in the block, and not overheat. I'd hate to see you get crazy and tear this thing down over something simple like a gauge or a sender.
See if you can borrow or get one of these and do a little testing,
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I would suggest that before you start tearing your motor down you verify that the water is actually getting that hot. I had a brand new sending unit from Autometer that was bad out of the box do this to me last your when we were all at Avi. Motor went from stone cold to 200* in under 2 minutes. As soon as the gauge started to move, it would just keep going. I had an IR temp gun with me and when I started checking the motor I couldn't find any spot on the motor that was even at 130* yet. I swapped the sender with one from a buddies boat and problem solved, motor was running 130*.
You said you were running on the trailer to begin with. Did you by chance feel the water exiting the motor? Did if feel hot and was it steaming? Do you have a good flow of water coming out the back? I find it hard to believe your motor can put that much heat in the water if it's flowing at a normal flow. If your actually getting hot, I would think the water flow out the back would be almost nothing. It would have to be almost complete blockage to slow the water long enough to get that much heat in it. I've seen motors in boats that had blown head gaskets bad enough to cut grooves in the block, and not overheat. I'd hate to see you get crazy and tear this thing down over something simple like a gauge or a sender.
See if you can borrow or get one of these and do a little testing,
When I ran it on the hose the water coming out of the exhaust wasn't much but I found out my brother only turned the hose on a full turn and that's it so I figured that was the problem. Yesterday we ran it in the water. I have two sending units one is on the manifold and one is on the right side of the head when it was reading 220 it was on the manifold then I let it sit for about 10 minutes and put the lead on the sending unit off the head it read 180. Fired it back up and the temp went down at 2k rpms to 140 but still climbed back up to 190 after 20 seconds of idling. There's water coming out of the exhaust but I'm not sure how much should
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I'm bringing it down to my shop today and gonna see if I can borrow my buddy's temp gun like you said but yesterday when it read 200 degrees I put my hand on the block and the exhaust and both felt that hot
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I'm hoping it's something simple like a bad sending unit or clogged hose. Really don't want to tear a motor down in the beginning of the season. Plus I told my fiancé this thing was river ready 😱
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Check your pump...the vanes on the impeller could be worn to nothing. When idling the worn vanes don't create enough flow..when spinning fast the vanes create more flow thus cooling it down..when you run back down at idle the motor will warm back up due to lack of internal flow... definitely check all the hoses and the water jacket plugs in the block.
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Water pump that is..;)
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Checked all the water lines and could blow through all of them. I got another sending unit that will be in later today. There's a difference between the two plugs. The one up on the intake has a smaller diameter probe on it then the one on the head
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Havasukona shoot me a text 9515440346. I have a video of my boat running on the trailer I can send you so you can get an idea of how much water should be running out.
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Well Havasu hope u find ur issue. Great idea about double checking actual temp.
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Did anyone try to run water pressure through each hose by themselves?
One of the hoses may have delamed aka flapper
Most likely in the main inlet hose..
Run the water pressure in the same direction it would normally on the engine...
Could be where the black stuff came from if I read that right. The flapper could be partially chocking off the hose.
GARY.
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Well guys I checked over everything yesterday. Blow through all my hoses replaced a couple that looked like that might be collapsing and ran it on the hose. Had the water all the way up and the motor never got past 150 😧. I've been doing some reading on the pumps and forums and if my pump is worn then it's not gonna pick up enough pressure to cool the motor correct ? I'm gonna go back out today to test it on the water to see for sure. Hoping I fixed the problem and it was just a bad hose
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I was just thinking about this. Are you sure you don't have a restriction in the pump feeding the motor? I don't believe a worn pump would cause this, but something plugging the feed from the pump could definitely give you grief. Try pulling the feed line off at the pump and stick something like a /piece of welding rod or wire back into the pump. The passage that feeds the motor is like 3/8" to 1/2", there should be absolutely no blockage there. It should be wide open. If someone has either done some work in the pump or maybe killed that pump at one time that hole could be obstructed which would definitely cause an over heat issue .
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Here's a pic I stole from Cause for Divorce's thread. It shows the water feed hole next to the wear ring (big hole on the left) This gives you an idea of the size of the hole the water comes through.
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I did that yesterday talking with SoCal. I pulled the line off and took some chicken wire in there and also blew some air into it and it sounded completely open. Poked at it for a while with the chicken wire and didn't feel anything
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Hhmm. So u didnt go past 150 it was running cold or wouldnt come down below 150? Was this in the water or on trailer?
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It was at about 140 or 145 running on the trailer. If I brought it up to about 2500 rpms it would go down to 135 and stay but never got past 145 and I let it idle for about 10 mins
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It was on the trailer hooked up to a hose. But also when I shut it off I let it sit for maybe 5 mins and checked the gauge and it was reading 190 but the temp gun I had said it was about 155 to 165 on the intake and heads
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Something is still wrong....
You should be able to make it run under 100*F on a hose.
It only requires about a half a gallon per minute to keep it cold at idle.
Stop running it on the trailer, head to the ramp and run it on the trailer. Honestly it is beginning to sound like the head gaskets are plugged up or the block is full of sand... Have you removed the drain plugs yet?
GT
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Well just got back from the lake and the boat was at perfect temp. Ran it on the trailer for about ten minutes on the trailer and it didn't even get above 140 at idle. Closed the gate valve a little and it got to about 155 160 at idle. Cruised around the lake and temp was at 125 while driving then went up to about 160 while coming in and idling. Once I shut it off it's gets up to about 190. Boat seems to run pretty good otherwise. It will pull 5000 rpms easy. It top out at 5300. My old boat only spun 4400 so I'm pretty stoked on this motor. No idea why it ran so hot the first time out and now it's running cool though
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Pic of the boat
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So long as the dump side is bigger than the supply side, you shouldn't have an over pressure issue.
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What ever the cause, glad it seems to have worked itself out. Maybe one of them hoses you changed was collapsing or ????? Time to go enjoy it. :thumbup:
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Well just got back from the lake and the boat was at perfect temp. Ran it on the trailer for about ten minutes on the trailer and it didn't even get above 140 at idle. Closed the gate valve a little and it got to about 155 160 at idle. Cruised around the lake and temp was at 125 while driving then went up to about 160 while coming in and idling. Once I shut it off it's gets up to about 190. Boat seems to run pretty good otherwise. It will pull 5000 rpms easy. It top out at 5300. My old boat only spun 4400 so I'm pretty stoked on this motor. No idea why it ran so hot the first time out and now it's running cool though
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Sweet! Glad it all sorted out.
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Pic of the boat
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lol at the smiles on those faces looks like everyone enjoys it .
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Sweet! Glad it all sorted out.
Thanks for all your help gt and to the rest of you guys. Don't know how I would have gotten the info if it wasn't fir this forum. Hopefully I'll see you guys on the water soon so I can buy you guys a couple cold ones 🍺🍺👍.
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lol at the smiles on those faces looks like everyone enjoys it .
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Yeah my fiancé and daughter both love it. She likes it cause it's a lot smoother then my old boat and cause it's quiet. Little does she know I have plans to put a blower on it next summer 👍
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Yeah my fiancé and daughter both love it. She likes it cause it's a lot smoother then my old boat and cause it's quiet. Little does she know I have plans to put a blower on it next summer 👍
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Blower motors, while hard to believe are quieter... tell her that its a muffler... ;)
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Blower motors, while hard to believe are quieter... tell her that its a muffler... ;)
lmao I'm going to have to remember that one
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How many turns out do you guys run your gate valves? Mines one turn out from closed and I can barely get 130 while cruising and it'll go out to 140 going back to idle after running and drop back to 120-130 after a minute or so of idling. I'm afraid if I close it off anymore it's not going to be getting enough water
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Blower motors, while hard to believe are quieter... tell her that its a muffler... ;)
She would definately believe it till I put it on 😁. She's opposite of me though. She likes things quiet and slow. I'm all about loud and fast. Guess she has a rude awakening coming lol
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How many turns out do you guys run your gate valves? Mines one turn out from closed and I can barely get 130 while cruising and it'll go out to 140 going back to idle after running and drop back to 120-130 after a minute or so of idling. I'm afraid if I close it off anymore it's not going to be getting enough water
Mine is about 2 turns from being completely open
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I want to say the last couple have been about a turn and a half open from closed.
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I want to say the last couple have been about a turn and a half open from closed.
Really ? Mine is about 2 turns from all open. Is that normal ?
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Really ? Mine is about 2 turns from all open. Is that normal ?
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It really depends on how well the pump is set up. I use an Ultimate wear ring and a bowl stuffer set at .045" away from the impeller. It makes so much pressure at idle that I have a 1/4" restrictor in the water process tube.
Results may vary.
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It really depends on how well the pump is set up. I use an Ultimate wear ring and a bowl stuffer set at .045" away from the impeller. It makes so much pressure at idle that I have a 1/4" restrictor in the water process tube.
Results may vary.
+1 Everything plays a factor. Pump motor, plumbing etc..from my experience shorter lines will allow the water to travel a lot faster from pump to the inlet in the block, depending on your restrictions in between...everything plays a role. In my opinion it's a constant tweaking until you find a sweet spot.