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RockyCapone

  • Karma: +0/-0
My results with having 2 dumps off engine
« on: August 14, 2012, 07:43:44 AM »
In my learning curve of jet boats I learned something that I wanted to share so that other newbies dont make the same mistake. I changed up my new to me boat a little because on paper and in reading it made sense about having too much water pressure in my block. Per the internet I had to have 2 -10 or 5/8's return lines off my block because if I didnt I'd have way too much pressure and possible push out gaskets and I needed a ball valve to control water to my OT Bassett headers. Well I made the changes and went out this past weekend to see how it works. At first I had a gauge on the manifold that read up to 100psi because I didnt want to over peg the gauge and break it-lol what a joke. I couldnt really get a good reading Saturday because of some factors but I didnt really see the gauge move so on Sunday at South Cove the water was like glass and I got a chance to really hammer down, oh and by the way I installed a 15 psi gauge. Under full throttle I only saw 7 psi of pressure and at idle maybe 1-2 psi. So the whole over pressurization of the block article was bull on my stockish big block. What I should of done first was installed the gauge and seen what was going on and installed a ball valve going to my spring loaded t valve for the headers. Now that I have a new hole in the back of my boat for a dump I dont need I will just add another valve to shut it off or possible insert a restrictor into the hose.
After researching this again, here, yesterday, someone already pointed this out :banghead: I guess if have a high rpm engine or upgraded jet you dont need this, maybe :screwy: But even though its my fault for not looking here first thanks to everyone that has posted on this subject earlier. 
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1978 Southwind Formula 1 T body
454 Berkley
IF I GET BORED AND HAVE NOTHING TO DO I'M CALLING GTJETS AND ASKING HIM IF I SHOULD RUN A T-STAT IN MY JETBOAT--THAT SHOULD BURN OFF 8 HOURS EASY
....it would have been cheaper to spend our money on cocaine and hookers

mash on it

  • Karma: +29/-0
Re: My results with having 2 dumps off engine
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2012, 08:04:44 AM »
I had a single 5/8" dump line and the intake manifold kept leaking ( at 3500 rpm) and it would run up to 195*-210* in the no wake zone. Over pressure--hell yes it was, but never had a gauge. I added a second line and the temp came down to 135*-140* at Idle and 110*-120* on plane cruising. Mostly stock BBC with Bassets
( I grabbed heater hose at the parts house in Parker, problem solved)

Daniel
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pw_Tony

  • Karma: +12/-0
Re: My results with having 2 dumps off engine
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2012, 01:36:08 PM »
In my learning curve of jet boats I learned something that I wanted to share so that other newbies dont make the same mistake. I changed up my new to me boat a little because on paper and in reading it made sense about having too much water pressure in my block. Per the internet I had to have 2 -10 or 5/8's return lines off my block because if I didnt I'd have way too much pressure and possible push out gaskets and I needed a ball valve to control water to my OT Bassett headers. Well I made the changes and went out this past weekend to see how it works. At first I had a gauge on the manifold that read up to 100psi because I didnt want to over peg the gauge and break it-lol what a joke. I couldnt really get a good reading Saturday because of some factors but I didnt really see the gauge move so on Sunday at South Cove the water was like glass and I got a chance to really hammer down, oh and by the way I installed a 15 psi gauge. Under full throttle I only saw 7 psi of pressure and at idle maybe 1-2 psi. So the whole over pressurization of the block article was bull on my stockish big block. What I should of done first was installed the gauge and seen what was going on and installed a ball valve going to my spring loaded t valve for the headers. Now that I have a new hole in the back of my boat for a dump I dont need I will just add another valve to shut it off or possible insert a restrictor into the hose.
After researching this again, here, yesterday, someone already pointed this out :banghead: I guess if have a high rpm engine or upgraded jet you dont need this, maybe :screwy: But even though its my fault for not looking here first thanks to everyone that has posted on this subject earlier.

Just because you didn't build alot of pressure doesn't mean you shouldn't do things the right way. That's the best way to set up a boat with headers. When you get some horsepower, and started messing with the pump your water setup will already work. Even if you're only pumping 7psi through the line, you're still moving alot more water than a normal car setup when you consider the volume you're moving. If you're not seeing any water temperature rise, I don't see why you would want to restrict the water?
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ka0tyk

  • Karma: +30/-0
Re: My results with having 2 dumps off engine
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2012, 01:41:42 PM »
i dunno i have 2 dumps and they're always shooting a steady full stream.  i have a single -10 from my pump, splits into 2, goes thru manifolds, into motor, out the top 2 dumps and out the back. 

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74hondo

  • Karma: +8/-0
My results with having 2 dumps off engine
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2012, 02:20:00 PM »
I run dual dumps also. This came after a very long conversation with the owner of performance jet, whose name I can't remember at the moment lol. For cooling in a jet boat certain pressure isn't needed like in a car. It's all about volume and making sure you aren't over pressurizing it to avoid leaks and milkshake etc...
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RockyCapone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My results with having 2 dumps off engine
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2012, 02:30:07 PM »
Just because you didn't build alot of pressure doesn't mean you shouldn't do things the right way. That's the best way to set up a boat with headers. When you get some horsepower, and started messing with the pump your water setup will already work. Even if you're only pumping 7psi through the line, you're still moving alot more water than a normal car setup when you consider the volume you're moving. If you're not seeing any water temperature rise, I don't see why you would want to restrict the water?
Engine runs ice cold at idle 125-130. Water injection to headers comes on around 3000 rpms or a little higher, with valve wide open- my understanding is I want steam at least around 1800 rpms-correct? My Basset t valve's clean - spring is in the right way with no shims and my stainless lines are clean and clear. Would like to see 150-160 engine temp at idle wouldnt I? Too cold of an engine cant be good. At WOT I would think 15-18 psi would be right and even factory settings are as proof with radiator caps set to pop off about there. Too much flow wont collect heat the same as a little slower moving water giving it a chance to absorb the heat.   
My thought process is this and correct me if im wrong. I'm shooting for 150 idle temp, with the thought of engine oil temp is fine also, and water injection to come on around lets say 2000 rpms. Since I'm not getting steam from headers at 2k and water pressure at idle might be 1, tells me I have no backpressure at all and need to raise it "some at least double of 7 psi" so I can adjust water injection to come on correctly. I believe the basset valve opens around 6 psi not sure where I got that # from but it sticks in my head. Under full throttle engine temp is going to be what it is it cant be controlled. 
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1978 Southwind Formula 1 T body
454 Berkley
IF I GET BORED AND HAVE NOTHING TO DO I'M CALLING GTJETS AND ASKING HIM IF I SHOULD RUN A T-STAT IN MY JETBOAT--THAT SHOULD BURN OFF 8 HOURS EASY
....it would have been cheaper to spend our money on cocaine and hookers

RockyCapone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My results with having 2 dumps off engine
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2012, 02:33:50 PM »
i dunno i have 2 dumps and they're always shooting a steady full stream.  i have a single -10 from my pump, splits into 2, goes thru manifolds, into motor, out the top 2 dumps and out the back.
I do have O/T exhaust and I do have a nice stream of warmer water exiting both dumps. I understand my headers wont shoot water like your setup out the exhaust but I think I'm running a little thin still.
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1978 Southwind Formula 1 T body
454 Berkley
IF I GET BORED AND HAVE NOTHING TO DO I'M CALLING GTJETS AND ASKING HIM IF I SHOULD RUN A T-STAT IN MY JETBOAT--THAT SHOULD BURN OFF 8 HOURS EASY
....it would have been cheaper to spend our money on cocaine and hookers

farmergord

  • Karma: +6/-0
Re: My results with having 2 dumps off engine
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2012, 02:54:02 PM »
the title of this thread has to have a sig line in it somewhere  >:D
  • Boat #1: 1976 Pioneer 19foot
  • Boat #2: 2020 Kingfisher 2025
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Im not a nag Im a motivational speaker

mash on it

  • Karma: +29/-0
Re: My results with having 2 dumps off engine
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2012, 03:48:07 PM »
the title of this thread has to have a sig line in it somewhere  >:D

too funny
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CJ/RR 212...under construction  "Pistol Annie"

mash on it

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Re: My results with having 2 dumps off engine
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2012, 03:58:27 PM »
on boat cooling, it is a single pass open system.
on a car, closed system, a good radiator cools 40*-50* in one pass. 210-50=160
on the boat, lake temp + 40* or 50*=110* to 120*
the combustion temps are SIMILAR, at this point
180-200* temps in open cooling may push out head gaskets
run it cool, and watch OIL temps

Daniel
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CJ/RR 212...under construction  "Pistol Annie"

pw_Tony

  • Karma: +12/-0
Re: My results with having 2 dumps off engine
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2012, 05:38:47 PM »
I do have O/T exhaust and I do have a nice stream of warmer water exiting both dumps. I understand my headers wont shoot water like your setup out the exhaust but I think I'm running a little thin still.

Most jet boats run 90*-110* at idle or wide open. Typically a boat motor will have a little extra piston to cylinder clearance than a car motor, allowing for the hot piston to expand and the cooler cylinders to not expand as far. If you have a car motor in your boat then a little more temperature would be beneficial, but most jet motors are bored/honed a little extra. Also you could just put a little weaker spring in your Bassett T-Valve for the water to come on sooner, probably get one at Ace Hardware or something for under a dollar. I've never liked the Bassett valves myself, on the several jets I've plumbed water on I gutted the T-valve and ran a line up to the driver with a ball valve I control. But I also don't have a stock motor so I worry about water and reversion a bit more. I have a gate valve also on the transom to restrict water if I needed to, but the less water pressure means the less chance of getting water past a gasket.
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ka0tyk

  • Karma: +30/-0
Re: My results with having 2 dumps off engine
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2012, 06:17:30 PM »
this weekend i decided to give a single 10- dump a try on sunday i pulled one of my lines off and capped it and ran a single line just hanging off the back of the boat.  i couldnt get the damn temps under 160 even when WOT.  idles were 200.  theres DEFINETELY a huge bottleneck in water getting out of the motor compared to dual dumps and i would hit 100's.  my exhaust manifolds were much hotter as well. 


go duals.
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Brad @ SCJB

  • Karma: +255/-0
Re: Re: My results with having 2 dumps off engine
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2012, 12:10:47 AM »
this weekend i decided to give a single 10- dump a try on sunday i pulled one of my lines off and capped it and ran a single line just hanging off the back of the boat.  i couldnt get the damn temps under 160 even when WOT.  idles were 200.  theres DEFINETELY a huge bottleneck in water getting out of the motor compared to dual dumps and i would hit 100's.  my exhaust manifolds were much hotter as well. 


go duals.

Did you know that ideal water temp is 180°? 200° at idle is normal too.
  • Boat #1: 1978 Liberty
  • Boat #2: 1982 Eliminator Sprint
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crewchief22

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Re: My results with having 2 dumps off engine
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2012, 06:33:31 AM »
I going to spew some info out here and see if anyone agrees/disagrees  ;)

On a closed cooling system the thermostat not only restricts flow to get the engine up to operating temperature more quickly, but it also restricts flow even when open to allow the coolant time to absorb heat from the engine components before transfering it to the radiator. 

So... What are the chances that by restricting the flow of open water in the engine the temps shown on your gauge are just reflecting the added heat that it is absorbing from the engine and not an actual increase in engine temp?  Meaning the engine might be running 180-200 but the water isn't staying in the block/heads long enough to reduce the temps inside the engine causing the gauge to read much lower.

What do you think?

  • Boat #1: '77 Hondo Pantera GT Jet
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"Racing is life!  Anything that happens before or after, is just waiting"    Steve McQueen

The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?

RockyCapone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My results with having 2 dumps off engine
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2012, 06:58:02 AM »
Retested this past weekend with around 110 ambient at the lake. At idle boat never went above 135 and under full throttle temp gauge showed about 115. I actually built more heat in the engine just sitting on the beach, engine off and drinking water. And I was much happier with my oil pressure with 10w-30 weight oil under throttle at any rpms was at 80 at idle 1100 rpms I was at 50 psi vs 15w40 at 80 psi always always or not. My testing pretty much ended when my floater decided idling wasnt in its future, worked out fine anyways day was over. Next day looked over everything and removed all the plugs-looked brand new with zero color-so it was very lean- compression test was excellent same straight across the board- and removed carb only to find secondaries on carb rusted and inop. So here's my chance to ditch the 600 and go with mechanical 750. Now to figure out if I square the jetting off on the new carb or not-more research- but I live for this stuff.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 07:09:45 AM by RockyCapone »
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1978 Southwind Formula 1 T body
454 Berkley
IF I GET BORED AND HAVE NOTHING TO DO I'M CALLING GTJETS AND ASKING HIM IF I SHOULD RUN A T-STAT IN MY JETBOAT--THAT SHOULD BURN OFF 8 HOURS EASY
....it would have been cheaper to spend our money on cocaine and hookers

74RogersBubbledeck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My results with having 2 dumps off engine
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2012, 07:32:16 AM »
I think there's way too much going on here. It's not that complicated. I've been taught by a really smart old school boat guy.

I've only run BBC's and cannot speak for Ford's or Old's, I've read some things about these motors that make me think if I had one I would set it up differently.

I personally will never restrict water flow at the pump, experimented with it with an old boat of mine with bad results, not enough water. First let it flow in. I'm running about 800+HP and also have a T valve under my seat. I only run water to my exhaust when on plane. I have 2 exits, intercooler and thermostat housing. My gauge sensor is at the thermostat area. Water temp 150ish all the time. Oil temp sensor near oil filter 170 when running hard. I had my engine set up based Bob Teague's recommendation and yes it's honed a little bigger than a car engine. Everyone that I feel has knowledge that should be trusted tells me the same thing - LET IT FLOW! It will run cold, that's the way boats are. Yes it will run a little faster if you warm it up a bit, I've done this and have also burned things up do to the lack of water flow.

For me gauges are not so much about where your running at, but more about change to let you know when your having a problem.

After reading this thread I still don't know what your having trouble with. Is it all about what your seeing on your gauges or is the boat running poorly? I see you read about over pressuring the system, I did too and thought some similar things that you did. After futher research I decided I don't need to worry about this. I did set up my engine from the ground up to do exactly what it's designed for - run a boat and run cold.
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RockyCapone

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Re: My results with having 2 dumps off engine
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2012, 07:50:37 AM »

After reading this thread I still don't know what your having trouble with. Is it all about what your seeing on your gauges or is the boat running poorly? I see you read about over pressuring the system, I did too and thought some similar things that you did. After futher research I decided I don't need to worry about this. I did set up my engine from the ground up to do exactly what it's designed for - run a boat and run cold.
Wasn't so much a problem as it was questioning and me being a newbie. My back ground was drag racing and we always tried to run around 160 and wasn't sure if a jet boat with a performance type engine had to be the same, then add water cooled headers-totally new to me-and I was questioning how much pressure I should see in the block and if it was enough to cool the headers. Besides its nice to see how others think and why they do what they do.
Thanks to everyone for their input. So I'm good with running it cold and lower pressures in the block.
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1978 Southwind Formula 1 T body
454 Berkley
IF I GET BORED AND HAVE NOTHING TO DO I'M CALLING GTJETS AND ASKING HIM IF I SHOULD RUN A T-STAT IN MY JETBOAT--THAT SHOULD BURN OFF 8 HOURS EASY
....it would have been cheaper to spend our money on cocaine and hookers

ka0tyk

  • Karma: +30/-0
Re: Re: My results with having 2 dumps off engine
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2012, 10:20:24 AM »
Did you know that ideal water temp is 180°? 200° at idle is normal too.

this was with my gate valve all the way open.  160-200 was the lowest i could get.  id rather have a little wiggle room by having the 2 dumps, wide open is down in the 100's and then i can adjust to bring temp up.  it was more of a "wow, it makes THAT much of a difference!" thing.
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Brad @ SCJB

  • Karma: +255/-0
Re: My results with having 2 dumps off engine
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2012, 12:43:54 PM »
Keith. Too much water pressure means milkshake....blown head gasket(s)...or worse, hydro lock. Turn the water down and play it safe.
  • Boat #1: 1978 Liberty
  • Boat #2: 1982 Eliminator Sprint
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BIG JOHNSON

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Re: My results with having 2 dumps off engine
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2012, 01:23:25 PM »
I going to spew some info out here and see if anyone agrees/disagrees  ;)

On a closed cooling system the thermostat not only restricts flow to get the engine up to operating temperature more quickly, but it also restricts flow even when open to allow the coolant time to absorb heat from the engine components before transfering it to the radiator. 

So... What are the chances that by restricting the flow of open water in the engine the temps shown on your gauge are just reflecting the added heat that it is absorbing from the engine and not an actual increase in engine temp?  Meaning the engine might be running 180-200 but the water isn't staying in the block/heads long enough to reduce the temps inside the engine causing the gauge to read much lower.

What do you think?
I agree in a way.

Before I put a gate valve on my water inlet, my water temp gauge wouldn't even rise off its 100* starting point.

But if I anchor it or float for a while, when I key the ignition on the temp always read 160* until I start it again, then it would drop back down to 100* 

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2
  • Boat #1: 1994 Ultra LX 21"
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crewchief22

  • Karma: +66/-0
Re: My results with having 2 dumps off engine
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2012, 08:02:37 PM »
Keith. Too much water pressure means milkshake....blown head gasket(s)...or worse, hydro lock. Turn the water down and play it safe.

Agreed.

What I was trying to say though, is that maybe the temps inside the engine aren't changing as much as he thinks with the difference in outlets.
  • Boat #1: '77 Hondo Pantera GT Jet
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"Racing is life!  Anything that happens before or after, is just waiting"    Steve McQueen

The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?

76 Bonneville

  • Karma: +25/-0
Re: My results with having 2 dumps off engine
« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2012, 10:23:27 PM »
Was told along time ago if you restrict the water to get engine temperature you probably have hot spots in the motor.  I run my gate valve wide open. Even in the race boat, and it runs 6800 rpm's. Never a blown head gasket in 35 years.
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74RogersBubbledeck

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Re: My results with having 2 dumps off engine
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2012, 06:47:52 AM »
 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
I agree with 74 Bonneville 100%

Hey 74 Bonneville, have any thoughts about my post under jet pumps - Fine tuning my performance jet?
Would be much appreciative
« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 06:52:00 AM by 74RogersBubbledeck »
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