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IRRebel

  • Karma: +16/-0
House Electrical issues
« on: May 09, 2013, 10:31:28 PM »

Somebody smarter than me explain this electrical dilemma. Now, I know wiring, etc, but this has me baffled, and sounds expensive to fix........and a long story. I'm a pretty fart smeller when it comes to this, but this REALLY has me baffled. 

 Back in December/January, when Mom was out here for the winter, my Niece Josie blew up my oven. Set it on fire, burning up an element, whole shebang. Wasn't really her fault, but still fun to pick on her for it. Anyway, a couple weeks later lost power to half the house. Kinda weird, all the bedrooms except the master, half the kitchen, half the basement. Call the power company thinking one leg of my power was not working. Utility guy from APS helps me out turning off power to the house and finding a bad main breaker, helps me file and clean the contacts in the panel, etc. Of COURSE, it's not a breaker anyone stocks like Home Depot, its a $500 special order breaker which I procure from another source, install, then have to get inspected by the city before they'll turn power back on, yada yada yada. Got that all done pretty quickly really, although the ""inspector" I don't think knows an electrical panel from a toothbrush.... but all worked fine until tonight.

 So tonight, power goes out in half the house the same exact way! Here's where it gets funny. I turn off breakers on one side, reset the main, and turn breakers on one at a time, nothing. I'm scratching my head here at this point. most of the kitchen works, fridge, etc, but half the receptacles are out, Microwave/range hood out. My son was checking the stove to see if it worked, it did, and also VOILA! Microwave came on! Check it again, stove on, got all my lights back! I'm thinkin' stove issue. pull it out, unhook it, turn off its breaker, nothing. hook it all back up, turn it on, VOILA! Lights again!

 Now I go out really puzzled here and just instinctively wiggle the breakers on that side of the panel. get to the top one on the right side, nowhere near the stove breaker and pretty blue sparks, frying and snapping sounds lit up the side yard from both the main breaker and half of them on that side...(As well as my eyes, other parts of my anatomy, and I musta spilled water on my pants when I filled the dog dish earlier is all I can figure)

 Time for a new panel? This is what I DON'T want to hear, as that's a rather large deal since I have a 400 amp service, and it's only maybe 10 years old.........Or could it be since I replaced the main that the rest of the breakers just need to be ordered and replaced? I'm assuming somehow through my stove I was supplying power from one 120V leg to the other side of the panel. It's been working since the Harry Potter style magical light show, but I don't wanna burn the house down just YET either........ ;)
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"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways totally worn out shouting 'Holy Shit what a ride!"---Crewcheif22 AKA Keith

GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: House Electrical issues
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2013, 10:47:44 PM »
Somebody smarter than me explain this electrical dilemma. Now, I know wiring, etc, but this has me baffled, and sounds expensive to fix........and a long story. I'm a pretty fart smeller when it comes to this, but this REALLY has me baffled. 

 Back in December/January, when Mom was out here for the winter, my Niece Josie blew up my oven. Set it on fire, burning up an element, whole shebang. Wasn't really her fault, but still fun to pick on her for it. Anyway, a couple weeks later lost power to half the house. Kinda weird, all the bedrooms except the master, half the kitchen, half the basement. Call the power company thinking one leg of my power was not working. Utility guy from APS helps me out turning off power to the house and finding a bad main breaker, helps me file and clean the contacts in the panel, etc. Of COURSE, it's not a breaker anyone stocks like Home Depot, its a $500 special order breaker which I procure from another source, install, then have to get inspected by the city before they'll turn power back on, yada yada yada. Got that all done pretty quickly really, although the ""inspector" I don't think knows an electrical panel from a toothbrush.... but all worked fine until tonight.

 So tonight, power goes out in half the house the same exact way! Here's where it gets funny. I turn off breakers on one side, reset the main, and turn breakers on one at a time, nothing. I'm scratching my head here at this point. most of the kitchen works, fridge, etc, but half the receptacles are out, Microwave/range hood out. My son was checking the stove to see if it worked, it did, and also VOILA! Microwave came on! Check it again, stove on, got all my lights back! I'm thinkin' stove issue. pull it out, unhook it, turn off its breaker, nothing. hook it all back up, turn it on, VOILA! Lights again!

 Now I go out really puzzled here and just instinctively wiggle the breakers on that side of the panel. get to the top one on the right side, nowhere near the stove breaker and pretty blue sparks, frying and snapping sounds lit up the side yard from both the main breaker and half of them on that side...(As well as my eyes, other parts of my anatomy, and I musta spilled water on my pants when I filled the dog dish earlier is all I can figure)

 Time for a new panel? This is what I DON'T want to hear, as that's a rather large deal since I have a 400 amp service, and it's only maybe 10 years old.........Or could it be since I replaced the main that the rest of the breakers just need to be ordered and replaced? I'm assuming somehow through my stove I was supplying power from one 120V leg to the other side of the panel. It's been working since the Harry Potter style magical light show, but I don't wanna burn the house down just YET either........ ;)


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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

emfabrication

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: House Electrical issues
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2013, 12:39:53 AM »
Sounds like thats whats going to have to be done
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uncleBOBBY

  • Karma: +2/-0
Re: House Electrical issues
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2013, 06:16:14 AM »
Sounds like  half the panel is dead or dying



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berkbryan

  • Karma: +3/-0
Re: House Electrical issues
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2013, 07:01:49 AM »
Sounds like a bad neutral or a loose connection take a piece of wire and go from the ground bus in the panel to the neutral bus and see if that fixes the problem if it does then bad neutral what brand panel is it and is it copper or aluminum wire and take a meter and check both legs on the main breaker

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IRRebel

  • Karma: +16/-0
Re: House Electrical issues
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2013, 07:21:57 AM »
Sounds like a bad neutral or a loose connection take a piece of wire and go from the ground bus in the panel to the neutral bus and see if that fixes the problem if it does then bad neutral what brand panel is it and is it copper or aluminum wire and take a meter and check both legs on the main breaker

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I'm thinking the panel is done for. It's a Cooper panel, copper wiring and new main installed. Bus bars were tight and secure when I changed the main, and all seemed well.

Dunno. Calling in a pro this morning........

Ray
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"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways totally worn out shouting 'Holy Shit what a ride!"---Crewcheif22 AKA Keith

BowtieGuy454

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: House Electrical issues
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2013, 04:39:05 PM »
Sounds like "line to neutral load". Open neutral in a _/3 romex or shorted to neutral. You prob got a cooked j-box somewhere. Do you have overhead or underground feed?
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IRRebel

  • Karma: +16/-0
Re: House Electrical issues
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2013, 05:39:57 PM »
Sounds like "line to neutral load". Open neutral in a _/3 romex or shorted to neutral. You prob got a cooked j-box somewhere. Do you have overhead or underground feed?

Underground entrance.

Dunno what it was, for sure. All fixed now, at least for now. All new breakers (some were found to be pretty bad, so I had the guy put all brand new in), main breaker was found to be faulty (Possibly a defect from new, or the other breakers in the panel were working it over little by little), so we replaced it with a Seimans instead of a Murray this time around. Gotta go get my money back on the Murray I paid $400 for, but I got all that done, all lines and loads checked for $450 and a handshake agreement between him and the power company guy that if it happens again, APS is replacing my entire entrance and wire, because that is the only thing left that it could possibly be.  ;)  Neither of them had ever seen anything like this.   :sly:

Ray   
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76NORDIC

  • Karma: +23/-0
Re: House Electrical issues
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2013, 06:21:15 PM »
Good to hear ya got it fixed Ray :thumbup:
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The definition of insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results.....Einstein

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BowtieGuy454

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: House Electrical issues
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2013, 06:30:44 PM »
Underground entrance.

Dunno what it was, for sure. All fixed now, at least for now. All new breakers (some were found to be pretty bad, so I had the guy put all brand new in), main breaker was found to be faulty (Possibly a defect from new, or the other breakers in the panel were working it over little by little), so we replaced it with a Seimans instead of a Murray this time around. Gotta go get my money back on the Murray I paid $400 for, but I got all that done, all lines and loads checked for $450 and a handshake agreement between him and the power company guy that if it happens again, APS is replacing my entire entrance and wire, because that is the only thing left that it could possibly be.  ;)  Neither of them had ever seen anything like this.   :sly:

Ray   

Sweet! I am a HVAC and electrical contractor. I have seen something similar. It ended up being the overhead feed from Edison. The neural from the pole is bare and uv destroyed the insulation on one of the 120v lines. It was causing some whacky things in the house. If some appliances were unplugged 1/4 of the house would go out. Glad you got it solved!
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IRRebel

  • Karma: +16/-0
Re: House Electrical issues
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2013, 07:15:53 PM »
Sweet! I am a HVAC and electrical contractor. I have seen something similar. It ended up being the overhead feed from Edison. The neural from the pole is bare and uv destroyed the insulation on one of the 120v lines. It was causing some whacky things in the house. If some appliances were unplugged 1/4 of the house would go out. Glad you got it solved!

Well, it ain't solved, I mean, I'd be happier to know "hey, the wire to your water heater or stove is fawked up" or some rhyme or reason as to why I did this in February, myself, main alone and it cost me more than a pro doing it this time....  :screwy: ....... But it IS working, and if it goes out in another 3 months again...well, THEN we know!

Bowtie, I suspect the real problem lies exactly there, in my entrance line, myself. And here is WHY. it is all on the side of my house that leads back to the RV gate, and I've backed boats through, and parked them there, thousands of times. Been many times I've parked my F350 there, and it's driven over that area countless times. Code in AZ as far as the house and panel wiring are not that indifferent to the rest of the world (Strict as hell) but the entrance? You have a rigid sweep out of the box underground aiming at the street. THAT is IT! just wire from there to their large under-street conduits, if there even in fact is conduit even there. THAT is why the first time it happened I figured it was my entrance line, and I still suspect it is.

We'll see!  >:D

Ray
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