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Stevecat

  • Karma: +2/-0
Rant Warning! I'm Against Big3 Bailout - Here's Why
« on: November 19, 2008, 06:14:02 PM »
There are two "players" in my saga of Detroit: The past and present leaders of the Big Three car companies and the past and present leaders of the UAW. I am going to refer to these people collectively as "management" in my discussion.

For over 30 years of my adult lifetime I have watched the leadership of Big Three automotive ignore the realities of the marketplace. It doesn't matter what the excuses are, the absolute bottom line is they have mismanaged their business and the evidence is massive loss of market share. The Asian car companies have kicked their ass. They are still kicking ass and they will continue to kick ass. This is called free market capitalism - nothing more, nothing less. After 300 years of trying various systems, free market capitalism seems to succeed where socialism, communism, dictatorships and monarchies have failed. Free market capitalism has determined that Detroit's Big Three don't have a clue and they are being punished for their faults.

And for 30 years, the same group of people who have failed to react effectively to worthy competitive products has also stood by and allowed their businesses to enter into unsustainable union contracts. Again, when I refer to management I mean the management of both the UAW and the Big Three. Together, they have committed industrial suicide. I can assure you that BOTH groups of management knew at some level that they were negotiating themselves into ruin. But oh boy, the UAW had a nice ride there for about 30 years! God bless 'em for their moxy and egocentric, short-sightedness. They obtained great pay and benefits for their members. (I am indeed jealous.) But there was a consequence to their actions - they created a cost structure that could not be sustained. The combination of high wages for active workers, together with growing pension fund obligations for retirees, topped off with declining sales due to crappy products is NOT a formula for success.

Good job UAW management and legal consul - you made yourselves a LOT OF MONEY and had a good time! But isn't your job as grown-up, supposedly responsible professionals to balance both the short and long-term health of the business? And shame on you Big Three management! What the hell were you thinking as you kept signing the contracts? The collective behavior of these two groups of management borders on fraud. They promised their workers pay and benefit packages that were in NO WAY sustainable for the long haul. Over on Wall Street this is called a Ponzi scheme.

In the real world of most tax payers, this kind of behavior can only go on for a couple of years and we're out of business. The only places where this level of insanity exist without consequence are in Detroit, the US health care industry and any big, fat, heavy-public-sector, socialist country like France.

So now, after 30 years of stupid decisions, slow-motion suicide and egoistic wages and benefits, Detroit management (including union management) want Mommy and Daddy to make it all better. They want our government to make the bad monster go away so they can keep having fun! I say what any parent has to ultimately learn to say if they want their kids to grow up - sorry Big Three and UAW, but NO.

The US is supposed to be a democracy with a free-market economy. I don't want the US to turn into France (one is enough thank you).
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GlassCutter

  • Karma: +31/-0
Re: Rant Warning! I'm Against Big3 Bailout - Here's Why
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2008, 06:58:26 PM »
Exactly right.   Let 'em go into BK so they are forced to re-organize from the ground up.  If Japan can build cars here for 40 an hour GM doesn't need and cant' support of justify 73 an hour.   There will be a long line of investors that will be interested in giving it a shot.   Listening to the CEO's talk today, the sense of entitlement that these guys had was unbelievable.  They really think that they have a right to exist, no matter how poorly they operate.
  • Boat #1: 1973  Wriedt Montara 23
  • Boat #2: 1978 Spectra 20 460/Berkley
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Also, I will kiss bare male ass in the middle of the Vegas Strip  . . .  I will post pics if I need to.  --  IRRebel 2013

"Go ahead Rivertard does it.  Take a video though."

"If you did it in a dodge it would have shifted perfectly ran a thousand miles per hour and got optimum fuel mileage!"  Nordie  2012

jet boat performance

  • Karma: +25/-0
Re: Rant Warning! I'm Against Big3 Bailout - Here's Why
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2008, 07:46:26 PM »
Well said Guys , I have mixed emotions here but lean towards letting them struggle and "reorganize" (chapter 11) I have 30+ plus years in the Car Biz and Rhonda and I are still "deeply invested" in same in our other business (over and above JBP) They should have (and probably did) see this coming I worked as a Mopar tech in the 70's when Chrysler "tanked" thier warrants were down to $1.50 a share??? and they came back
 All these swingin Dicks need to wake up the days of the 12 mpg "Burbs" are gone ! The Fuk*n unions need to wake up too, $70 bucks an hour (including benny's) Jesus am I in the wrong end of the business? WTF some of the execs flew frikken jets ($10k trips ) to testify today .... oh now you got me started Tom
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FORKEDUP

  • Karma: +4/-0
Re: Rant Warning! I'm Against Big3 Bailout - Here's Why
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2008, 09:31:53 PM »
i agree with tom, fly in and beg for money in you private corporate jet :mad:
what is it one of eight that they have
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BEAUTY IS ONLY A LIGHT SWITCH AWAY
26' kachina force 496bbc
19' eliminator daytona 496bbc (still in my heart)
21 Commander, blown 454, berk pump.

GlassCutter

  • Karma: +31/-0
Re: Rant Warning! I'm Against Big3 Bailout - Here's Why
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2008, 09:40:50 PM »
It shows their sense of entitlement but when you need Billions, is how the witnesses get there really the important question.  By the time you figure in fares for all the "staff" that probably also went along the price gap between the two would certainly narrow.  The more important thing to focus on for me is when the Ford exec was asked if he could pledge that in a year or two they would not need to come back asking for more.  He snipped back "can you promise that the economy will turn around?"    Let em re-organize.
  • Boat #1: 1973  Wriedt Montara 23
  • Boat #2: 1978 Spectra 20 460/Berkley
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Also, I will kiss bare male ass in the middle of the Vegas Strip  . . .  I will post pics if I need to.  --  IRRebel 2013

"Go ahead Rivertard does it.  Take a video though."

"If you did it in a dodge it would have shifted perfectly ran a thousand miles per hour and got optimum fuel mileage!"  Nordie  2012

beerjet

  • Karma: +81/-0
Re: Rant Warning! I'm Against Big3 Bailout - Here's Why
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2008, 10:11:13 PM »
I hate to say it , but your right .  :-\

-beerjet-
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i dont but im all for stuffin shit in her ass to make her go away :-*

GlassCutter

  • Karma: +31/-0
Re: Rant Warning! I'm Against Big3 Bailout - Here's Why
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2008, 06:16:41 AM »

I hate to say it , but your right .  :-\

-beerjet-

Strangely it feels so much better when my wife says that  ;)
  • Boat #1: 1973  Wriedt Montara 23
  • Boat #2: 1978 Spectra 20 460/Berkley
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Also, I will kiss bare male ass in the middle of the Vegas Strip  . . .  I will post pics if I need to.  --  IRRebel 2013

"Go ahead Rivertard does it.  Take a video though."

"If you did it in a dodge it would have shifted perfectly ran a thousand miles per hour and got optimum fuel mileage!"  Nordie  2012

beerjet

  • Karma: +81/-0
Re: Rant Warning! I'm Against Big3 Bailout - Here's Why
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2008, 07:52:13 AM »
Strangely it feels so much better when my wife says that  ;)
I could only imagine  :P

The worst thing is that GM has branched out . Way out . They are not just making cars . They are a bank with tons invested (all be it bad investments) in the economy . I just cant imagine what disaster will be left in there wake . Hunker down people !

-beerjet-
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i dont but im all for stuffin shit in her ass to make her go away :-*

wizard612

  • Karma: +4/-0
Re: Rant Warning! I'm Against Big3 Bailout - Here's Why
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2008, 12:52:47 PM »
What you all say seems true for how not to run a business but be forewarned,  If Ford, GM & Chrysler all rebuild there businesses, where do you think your basic motor parts will come from for your boats?  The racing rules will have to change to allow all aftermarket pieces like blocks, heads, cranks, camshaft blanks, bearings, etc.  Not one of those will come cheaper than they are now.  Also if all they make are small flex fuel "green" cars the tree huggers will be on such a power trip they will want to ban all motorsports.
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OC2Vegas

  • Karma: +12/-0
Re: Rant Warning! I'm Against Big3 Bailout - Here's Why
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2008, 11:54:09 PM »
If they are allowed to fail it will have a global impact! Over 3 million out of work is the estimate. This is just not about them its the parts suppliers, dealerships, small towns that the part manufactuers are in, etc.

How much more do you all want to pay for a new car above what the cars/trucks are costing now? If they are allowed to fail they estimate that the Hondas, toyotas, etc will have a wait for them and that the prices will increase 10 to 20% over current prices!

They have bailed out eveyone else, why not them. Unions are a huge problem, period!

(stepping off my soap box now)
« Last Edit: November 22, 2008, 05:01:00 PM by OC2Vegas »
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Stevecat

  • Karma: +2/-0
Re: Rant Warning! I'm Against Big3 Bailout - Here's Why
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2008, 12:36:55 PM »
Feel free to agree or disagree with my position. But whatever your feelings, let your senator know.

Here's the link to their contact info. It's fairly easy to fill out their email forms.

http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm

Just say something simple like: "I am for/against bailing out the US auto industry."

(Or feel free to borrow from my rant if you want.)
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The older I get, the better I was.

Taylor SJ

  • Karma: +6/-0
Re: Rant Warning! I'm Against Big3 Bailout - Here's Why
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2008, 07:23:59 PM »
Reagan bailed out Chrysler in the early '80s! And here we are again times 10. This is so deep there will never be a clear resolution. It is sad to imagine such a lucrative business cannot turn a profit.
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RitcheyRch

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Rant Warning! I'm Against Big3 Bailout - Here's Why
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2008, 08:12:51 AM »
I agree as well that there should be no bail out.  Let them all file BK and learn to manage their money like the rest of us.  Plus, think if the government helps them it might be a violation of some free trade agreements. 
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Nordie

  • Karma: +13/-0
Re: Rant Warning! I'm Against Big3 Bailout - Here's Why
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2008, 12:35:17 PM »
you know it really sucks that these companies are in trouble like they are...i personally believe they are the root of america, and if we loose these buisnesses we will go into a depression...most of us all drive domestic vehicles...all of out boats have domestic engines, and such and so on...but what is really pissing me off is seeing all of you guys bash the focking union...not a freaking single one of you bastards would be where you are today without unions...do some research...yes like anything there is coruptiuon, but you will miss the unions without them...if there wasnt a any unions some asshole could monopolize and say ok im paying all of you 5 bucks an hour and you cant go anywhere else to make more, so think about what you are saying people the unions are a big factor even if you arent a member of any union...im not saying bail them out, but they do need help...even beer guys are union! anheuser-bush, coors, miller all union made...even mickeys...think about it guys!


build buy be american
always try to buy american made who knows who's job you can be saving it might even be your own!
the unions gave a standard for the blue collard american to make a good living
« Last Edit: November 23, 2008, 12:51:33 PM by 1980Nordic »
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If im not posting..I'm pooping!

GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Rant Warning! I'm Against Big3 Bailout - Here's Why
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2008, 01:47:04 PM »
I find it neccissary to put in my .02c, IMHO the unions and for that matter the workforce are not the problem... that being said, what have the "Big Three" done to adjust for the last five or six years? Nothing.. they still build huge SUV's and not one really good quality good mileage car that would go toe to toe with any of the import counterparts.

The engineers were catering to the "easy sell" types within the company, who really gives a partial crap if you have a 350 HP Suburban or a 355 HP Excursion, they both only get 10-12 MPG which in todays market is not going to sell and "todays" market did not sneak up on them out of the blue...

I think they need to figure out how to get "the shit back in the horse" on their own, if they don't, why would they do anything any different?

As unpopular as it may seem, they need to come up with new technologies and reduce if not eliminate the dependance on fossil based engine designs, yeah I'm the first to admit that they work good and make a lot of HP, but lets be serious for a moment, those days are over. Take GM for example, the best they could do is a Flex-Fuel vehicle? Come on guys, methanol is not and never will be the answer, period end of story, that was a scheme thought up of by the corn growers of America to gain huge profits from a product that was whored out long ago to every other industry in  the world.

The technologies do not need to come from thin air, they are already out there, but no-one has really tapped into these technologies because there just aren't lucrative yet, in other words not an "easy buck", those days have sailed...

Let them go "tits up" and figure it out, only the strong will survive...

Sorry if this pisses anyone off, but they (Big Three) shit in there own linens by not changing with the times.

GT  (aka the little guy)
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

beerjet

  • Karma: +81/-0
Re: Rant Warning! I'm Against Big3 Bailout - Here's Why
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2008, 02:30:11 PM »
I remember when the company I work for went union . I was a big shot in arm until I was told how much it was going to cost my boss to pay a Journeyman an hour . Then I had to go to school to learn my trade  ??? Manditory ! If I dont show up on monday to class . My BA finds out where I'm working , pulls me off the job and I sit at home for the rest of the week , then I have to show up for class the next week . So thats 2 weeks wothout work .

The big picture with the unions in the construction trade is that so much is invested in training , saftey , first aid , benefits . That is why my bosses $80 an hour trickles down to my $40 an hour and I still have to pay for someone else's health care and get raked across the coals to the tune ot $400 a week worth of shit I'm not even using . I got to talking with Nordie about our trades and how little of it comes into play when people talk about how unions suck . Your not going to find a guy trying collect disability on our job sites . Getting hurt on our jobsite usually means losing a limb or even worse , your life . As usual there is no accountability for anyones actions and making a blanket statement that $78 an hour workers are the problem is wrong . They are not taking home that money . They'll be lucky to see $900 (which is good money to me !)

Our guys get run ragged , indoors , outdoors , hot or cold and dont even think about bitching about it cuz I'll double check your ass all the way home . I need shit done , not a fukin whiner . When someone isnt in place to set a standard of work let alone pay thats when my homeboys from the Home Depot get the job . Do you want Julio and Juan to build your buildings , your cars , planes ect, ect. I dont . I was trained to do a job safely , with the proper tools and in a timely manner . If someone drops the ball along the way , there needs to be accountability . Not whiping an entire industry off the board because Joe dipshit gets payed X amount of dollars . Maybe there should be a union in place for the management of these huge corporations . That way there is a level (ceiling of sorts) for these guys . You perform , you get paid , it's that simple .

I dont hear anyone bitching about fire fighters unions or the fuzz . As a rule of thumb for many years for every million dollars a life was lost on a job site . Through manditory training and education the LAX project ($785 million dollar project and growing  ;D ) has yet to loose a single life on the job or lost a day due to an accident . Accountability is why our industry commands better pay and we get it . I got an $8 raise over the past 2 years as part of our new contract and as a foreman is was $10 . $2 is not worth having to make sure a small to large group of guys is safe and goes home to there wife and kids everyday .

There are lots of sayings in our trade . An Iron Worker told me onces "You can count the Joes , by counting fingers and toes"

The idea of letting these corps go under and regroup is is a good idea on the surface but the truth is that the auto industry arm reaches out a long way and will hit you guys harder than you think . Ultimatley , they are going to have to disect these companys and salvage what they can to keep these guys afloat instead of just handing over a blank check . I can go on and on about why I think we are in the shitter but as usual the truth isnt as intersting  :-\

-beerjet-
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i dont but im all for stuffin shit in her ass to make her go away :-*

Nordie

  • Karma: +13/-0
Re: Rant Warning! I'm Against Big3 Bailout - Here's Why
« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2008, 04:37:30 PM »
tpersonally in defense of gm they made a valuble effort into turning green yeah they werent honda or toyota but then again they have been offering hybrid vehicles since the early 2000's did any of us go for that hell no but the other two in detroit had big failures with the hemi and ford with alot of their bad gas mileage vehicles you didnt see them advertising as many vehicles as gm getting over 30 mpg they were heading in the right direction yes the technology is there,but then again we all shot ourselves in the foot the big three went with supply and demand everyone wanted the big truck or suv so what did they keep making? so now they half to pay for it and not us right? now talking about shutting the doors and blaming union negotiated wages i dont think so...if we loose the big three i personally think we will all be standing in line for bread and soup
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If im not posting..I'm pooping!

 


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