SoCal Jet Boats
Tech Talk => Engine Mechanical / Electrical => Topic started by: electrowoman on May 16, 2008, 07:22:58 AM
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I just finished a build of a 460, all new bearings, melling HV oil pump, 10 quart Milodon marine oil pan and pickup K&N oil filter. Everything is new in this motor but the crank. All clearances were checked and fine.
The issue is the motor holds 75 PSI of oil pressure till it gets to about 4500 RPM's. That is where the problem comes in, it then drops to 20 PSI??
I know you guys have experiance with the oil pan so I'm posting this here. I have a guy telling me the Milodon oil pan is the problem. He thinks the oil is being sucked up by windage from the crank thus draining the pan?
I'm thinking the oil pump may be defective, or an air leak in the pick up. I'll be checking both when I pull the engine.
This thing runs great and sounds great. I have not run it above the point where the oil pressure starts to falter. This is all happening IN the water. The pressure drops comming out of the hole and when sneaking up on 4600 on a glass smooth lake.
I can't see sloshing being an issue except when pulling up on plane.
what do you guys think? I ordered a new pump.
What do you guys think? Have you ever heard of this before?
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how far is the pick up off the bottom of the pan? what weight oil do you run
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Pick up is 3/8 inch from the bottom, oil is castrol 10-40
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Electro-
I know that Paul Kane has had problems with the Milodon pan for the 460. If I were you, I'd order up a pan from Armando's Oil Pans http://www.geocities.com/aroilpans2/index.html#traps (http://www.geocities.com/aroilpans2/index.html#traps) I've seen his pans in person, they're a work of art, even Paul used one on that monster 582 that he built, and it has no oiling issues. You might want to call Mr Kane and see what he has to say, can't hurt.
Good luck
Skip
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I have close 400 bucks in this setup with pump, pickup etc. I would rather fix this pan if possible.
Does anyone know what the problem is with these pans if any? It's hard to imagine that they are mass producing a faulty product. Is there just a component in some of them that could be corrected?
My wife is understanding but not to the tune of throwing away 400 bucks just to buy another brand.... if you know what I mean ;D
Is the problem in the trap door area or what?
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how much oil are you putting in the motor, you may have too much and airating the oil. did you fill the pan to the bottom of the windage tray before installing it. i always count the quarts to the bottom of the tray and add one for the motor.
just because they say it is a 10 quart pan doesnt mean it is
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I put in 10 quarts and checked it with the dipstick. It's at the normal (old pan) level with the 10 quarts.
If it were the oil level it wouldn't return pressure immediatley after cuting back rpms by as little as 500. It would still have to settle I would think.
I'm leaning toward the pump cavatating possibly due to the pressure relief valve NOT opening.
What do you think?
Im really just kicking around any ideas at this point.
If it were a bearing it would be bad through out the rpm band. It just acts like someone turns a switch at 4500 rpm and as soon as you drop below that the pressure comes right back. That's why I suspect something in the pump as being defective.
I have a new pump on the way but after reading so may posts that say it may be the pan I just don't know.
I have a message in to Armondos to see what they think also.
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Throwing some ideas out there... getting more info... but I'm leaning to...
Bad gauge? What brand and type is the gauge. Bad sending unit? Did the sending unit come with the gauge? Mechanical gauge? Electrical gauge? How is the electrical on the boat? Original wiring from the 70's?
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the factory markings on the dipstick are now useless unless you know how many quarts to the bottom of the windage tray, windage tray is in a different location from stock.
for example with my armondos pan i run it just below the low mark on the dipstick. remove 1-2quarts from the pan and test. its cheeper than a new pump,
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That's an interesting theory but the dip stick marks the safe oil level below the crank reguardless of oil pan. It is watching the clearance between oil and crank.
However I have learned a long time ago that nothing is impossible. If the oil IS above the windage tray there is no sense having it as the crank would be in it.
I'll drop the level to the lower limit. With the extra capacity it should still have more oil than stock by a long shot.
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That's an interesting theory but the dip stick marks the safe oil level below the crank reguardless of oil pan. It is watching the clearance between oil and crank.
However I have learned a long time ago that nothing is impossible. If the oil IS above the windage tray there is no sense having it as the crank would be in it.
I'll drop the level to the lower limit. With the extra capacity it should still have more oil than stock by a long shot.
you come here asking for advise then argue about the advise given, if you knew you would not be asking.
i'm done here good luck
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Throwing some ideas out there... getting more info... but I'm leaning to...
Bad gauge? What brand and type is the gauge. Bad sending unit? Did the sending unit come with the gauge? Mechanical gauge? Electrical gauge? How is the electrical on the boat? Original wiring from the 70's?
::)
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This isn't agruing with anyone, this is a brain storming session to develop any possibilities we can come up with.
I've been building motors for a long time and have NEVER come across anything like this.
Sorry if I offended you, but thank you for your input
Dave
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Dave-
Ditch the milodon pan and your troubles will be gone.
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Could you tell me where the issue is with this pan? I could modify it if need be. I just need to know what part needs fixed.
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From Paul Kane-
"There are several ways to correct this: One is to box the oil in the pan better, and the other is to reduce windage to the sump/minimize windage. In my case, my crank has been heavily streamlined and windage is reduced. But I have known others that tried a lot of things and simply could not alleviate the problem until they changed oil pans."
Part deux-
"My advice is to remove the pan and modify it so as to better "box in" the oil that it holds. If you don't feel that you are up to the mods and/or cannot determine how to improve the pan, then buy a new pan. I strongly recommend an Armando's 10-quart pan. The windage tray sits atop full-pan-width gates and it also covers the entire perimiter of the pan. Oil is truly boxed in and has nowhere to go except for up the pickup tube."
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Thank you, that's something to work with. By any chance does anyone have a picture of
the INSIDE of some of the other pans? If so please e mail them to me at
mysticowner99@msn.com
I just got off the phone with the tech rep for Milodon and he thinks it's an oil pump bypass issue.
He also told me to drop one or two quarts of oil and try that to make sure it isn't aireated oil
I'll try lowering the oil level next weekend and check the pressure with the new mechanical gauge.
If it still drops I'll pull the pan, check the doors etc and look over the possibility of more baffeling to direct the oil to the gate. I'll make sure the gaskets are ok and not sucking air.
I'll put in the new oil pump at that time too.
Any other ideas of what to look for?
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My wife is understanding but not to the tune of throwing away 400 bucks just to buy another brand.... if you know what I mean ;D
Then imagine how she'll feel when you "throw away" several thousand dollars worth of engine.
LO (aka Paul)
p.s. If you insist on trying a different pump, then I'd recommend one of our Stage 1 pumps. If you want to modify the Milodon pan, then call me when the pan is off the engine...way too much to type here (and without picture show & tell).
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I'm leaning toward the pump cavatating possibly due to the pressure relief valve NOT opening.
What do you think?
HUH? Oh, this is a good one. Please explain to me how the bypass NOT opening is causing your sending unit to register less oil pressure....even if the pump is "cavitating" with a shut bypass piston..... ::)
LO
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That's an interesting theory but the dip stick marks the safe oil level below the crank reguardless of oil pan.
WHOA, hold on a second. Regardless of pan? How do you know???? You are running the OEM dipstick in conjunction with an aftermarket pan. WHat if the pan is shallower than OEM??? Perhaps you should follow the manufacturer's recommendations.
Paraphrased from the Milodon Website (I saw this some years ago and up until the website was revised):
Your OEM dipstick means nothing in regards to the proper oil level in your Milodon pan; set dipstick level as follows: Install pan bone dry. Install engine. Add the proper quantity of oil to your engine and let it settle to the bottom of the pan. Insert dipstick, remove and scribe the new proper oil level on your disptick. Start engine to circlulate oil. Re-insert dipstick and adjust level to the new scribed line as necessary.
When you do this, fill your engine with the intial 10 quarts, then put your boat in the water. Then scribe the dipstick.
LO
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By any chance does anyone have a picture of the INSIDE of some of the other pans?
If you are considering looking at different baffling approaches in the interest of applying them to the Milodon pan, then you should know that proper gating and baffling for one brand/type oil pan is not correct for another band/type.
LO
p.s. Could it be an air leak? Yes. Could it be a gasket leak? Yes. Could it be a bad pump? Yes. It could be several things, based on your symptoms. It could even be a cracked engine block. Most of these possibilities (and many others) are unlikely...but certainly possible. BUT I doubt it is any of those things.
Like I said in the other thread on the other forum, I run a Milodon pan. I like Milodon components; I think they are quality. My previous engine used Milodon Pan, Milodon timing chain, Milodon rod bolts, Milodon stainless valves, etc., you get the picture. No disrespect to them. All custom build engines are different and you need to tend to each engine's needs, one pan does not fit all, nor does a piston, a rocker arm, etc.
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Could you tell me where the issue is with this pan? I could modify it if need be. I just need to know what part needs fixed.
When the pan is off the engine, remove the zeus'd in windage tray and take an overhead picture of the pan and post the photo.
Thx,
Paul
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Apparently I'm the only one in this thread that has come across a bad gauge/sending unit or ??? :banghead:
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Apparently I'm the only one in this thread that has come across a bad gauge/sending unit or ??? :banghead:
It's not that at all Rod, it's the fact that Milodon pans on BBFs in jet boats are known to cause the type of oiling problems EW is describing.
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ph-8a ? fl-1a
is the pressure relief valve bypassing in the filter?
could be plugged up with the assembley lube.
i'de swap out the oil filter for 3 bucks , then run it.
might be a cheep fix.
if that don't fix it, might try draining some oil off.
then you will know if it is the pan.
cheep diagnosis.
the pan should be less full of oil at rpm...
less chance of windage.
you should able to get by with 6-7 quarts.
4500 rpm only needs 20 psi to live.
shouldn't hurt the engine testing it.
where are you pulling the oil pressure off of ?
after the oil pump from the cam bearings ?
can you pull it off the main bearings like a Cleveland ?
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It's not that at all Rod, it's the fact that Milodon pans on BBFs in jet boats are known to cause the type of oiling problems EW is describing.
Got it. Thank you. :)
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The pressure is being taken off the rear of the motor. The oil filter is a half size K&N filter. The long filters hit the frame rail. These filters have caused no issue since I bought the boat in 1978.
I did change the filter, pulled the engine and verified the pick up gap which I thought was the issue. It was short.
I called Milodon and They said to take two quarts out. That will verify pump or windage. He's guessing pump, wonder why.....
We'll see what happens next weekend with the new gauge and two quarts out.
On the oil pressure down due to the pressure relief not opening.
That came from an engineer who said the pressure build up causing the cavitation would kill the pressure. Back off the pressure end the cavitation and the pressure returns. I didn't come up with that. He's a college boy engineer here at work, they're allways right ;D
If it still drops with the two quarts out I plan on changing the pump Saturday night and going back out Sunday afternoon. I'll take pictures of the baffeling and check the pickup tube, gaskets etc for signs of leakage.
If it drops again I'm calling milodon back.
It's a good thing these engines are easy to pull!
PS, I'm not worried about hurting the engine, It doesn't go under 20psi and I don't keep the rpms where the oil pressure drops. I'm just breaking in the engine slower which is better anyway.
I enjoy working on the boat so this isn't a big headache, it's a hobby. I just want it right.
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Is it possible that you have a restriction in the oil return that would allow the Melling HV (high volume) oil pump to evacuate the pan at higher RPM? I'm not familliar enough with the BBF block to know if this could be an issue.
If you change the pump, what will you replace it with?
Just a couple questions that I have not seen addressed yet.
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I ordered a Ford Racing, High Vol. pump. I have another motor that I plan on building this winter, I'll use the other pump on that one if it's ok.
If this turns into a "it's not my problem it's theirs" type game with Milodon I'll probably pull the pan and pump off the motor I took out and use them till this is resolved. It's a stock front sump pan with baffle and milodon HV pump.
It's hard to believe a stock pan has no problems but this off shore racing type pan does. Go figure!
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It's more amazing that a front sump pan didn't give you any problems in a jet boat.
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It's more amazing that a front sump pan didn't give you any problems in a jet boat.
I have ran and still running a front sump pan for 2 years now and have never ever ever had any problems with oiling, ever. Everyone thinks they need a high volume pump when in most cases its not needed at all.
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I better not have a problem with a front sump pan... I can't use a rear sump. I wish I could but the jet intake angle prevents that.
Does anyone have any pictures of the inside of any other marine brand oil pans?? That would give me an idea of what to look for.
This thing has a windage tray in it. Do you think I need to make that wider? Longer? Angle the sides of the windage tray downward? That's where the pictures would be a big help.
I can do just about anything to the pan. We have quite a machine & metal shop here at the plant.
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Armondo's pan
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/cpg/albums/userpics/10041/normal_2-18-05_007.jpg)
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/cpg/albums/userpics/10041/2-18-05_006.jpg)
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/cpg/albums/userpics/10041/normal_2-18-05_008.jpg)
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/cpg/albums/userpics/10041/2-18-05_018.jpg)
hope this helps
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Boy I'll say it should help. There is a very big differance isn't there!
If this thing doesn't work Friday I'll be doing some extensive modifications.
It seems like Armondo places a great deal of emphasis on the right side of the pan as well as a total box of the oil.
Thank you very very much!
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I guess I should ask if anyone has one of these pans for sale and how much.....
I could just dump mine. It looks like a complete rebuild to fix mine!
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I guess I should ask if anyone has one of these pans for sale and how much.....
I could just dump mine. It looks like a complete rebuild to fix mine!
never seen a used Armondo's, new they are like 350ish
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I got to thinking about this...why modify before trying to return the parts!
I sent summit racing an e mail about the issue and asked them if they would
take the pan and pick up back.
Now we'll see if they are really concerned about customer appreciation
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Are the armondo's only sold by them or are they sold by retailers?
I found his website and they are $399. I don't know if that includes the pick up or not.
The website isn't very informative.
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Armondo's pan
Damn nice oil pan right there! :o
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Are the armondo's only sold by them or are they sold by retailers?
I found his website and they are $399. I don't know if that includes the pick up or not.
The website isn't very informative.
This is a response to an e-mail I sent them.
The Jet Oil Pan comes with 4 trap doors, windage tray with scrapers, pickup
We are now at our new location,
Armando’s Racing Oil Pans
15476 Montana Ave
EL Paso, Texas 79938
(915)849-7622
If you have any questions or concerns please, contact me.
Thank you,
Armando Rodriguez
Armando's Racing Oil Pans
Phone: (915)894-7622
Fax: (915)894-7622
Cell: (323)422-0145
E-mail: aroilpans@aol.com
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If this turns into a "it's not my problem it's theirs" type game with Milodon I'll probably pull the pan and pump off the motor I took out and use them till this is resolved.
It's hard to believe a stock pan has no problems but this off shore racing type pan does.
electrowoman,
I don't think it's right to assume that "one size fits all" when it comes to high performance or aftermarket parts. These situations are not uncommon in many areas and not just oil pans. For example, an engine build that uses a main girdle with a stock oil pump may encounter pump-to-girdle clearance issues. Or, a high compression roller cammed engine may encounter piston-to-valve clearance issues. Every custom engine build is different and therefore each aftermarket component available may not (cannot possibly) be optimized for every build out there. It is sometimes up to the owner/engine builder to "tweak to fit." Indeed, oil pans are very tricky business and understanding what is ocurring inside the running engine is not always obvious or comes intuitively.
Most jet boat motor builds work with the Milodon pan as-delivered right out of the box, and some do not...just like many other aftermarket parts that are available for high performance engines. The aftermarket performance part manufacturers cannot possibly know each and every combo to which their component may be applied. Conversely, the Big Three in Detroit will spend untold amounts on R&D, making sure that their intended parts work in that particular engine combo, which will be the exact same combo for 100,000 builds in a row.
Don't fault Milodon. I have known their pan/windage try combo to go through a few changes over its life, and for the better. They are good about improving product and they have excellent customer service. And...it just so happens that their oil pan is an older design relative to what is available these days. Indeed, Armando seems to have designed an oil pan that is pretty thoroughly sorted for the application and that's why I recommended it to you on two different Forums. But someone somewhere will eventually try to make use of that pan in a combo where it just won't work as delivered...but it still has been very well proven thus far as a broad application jet boat pan and mostly in builds just like yours they work excellently.
LO
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There is a very big differance isn't there! If this thing doesn't work Friday I'll be doing some extensive modifications.
It seems like Armondo places a great deal of emphasis on the right side of the pan as well as a total box of the oil.
I think you mean that "left" side, or drivers side of the pan. Your Milodon pan will need to be modified in a different fashion.
LO
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This just keeps getting better and better :screwy:
I put in the mechanical oil pressure gauge to be ready for Friday's run..... well. I put a T at the rear of the engine. One side went to the electrical sender the other to the oil line.
Simple enough. Started the engine to check for leaks and NO OIL PRESSURE.
The electric gauge jumped right to 75 psi but nothing on the mechanical.
I took the line off the gauge cranked the engine and no oil..... I pulled the line off the T and looked right up the line, it wasn't pinched from being tightened to much.
I looked in the gauge end, same thing... :banghead:
Sooooo now this isn't possible.... I took the line and gauge to the air compressor.... nope no air!
The oil line had a blem about 3 feet up the hose, it wasn't smashed it was just a tad different feel.
Since the hose didn't work any way I cut that part out for a look see. It just wasn't open!
Factory defect, seems to be an epidemic!
So I had another hose in the tool box and now we're ready for Friday ;D
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Well, I do have a wonderful wife! I explained what was going on with the oil pan and the modifications it may need ;D I also told her about the other brand pan, she stopped me in mid
sentence and told me to get one ;D
I love that lady, I called Armondo and he's going to build me one and send it hopefully to be here next
weekend.
Anybody interested in a very slightly used Milodon 10 quart marine pan with windage tray......
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I wanted to give you fellows an update on what's happening with the Milodon pan and Summit Racing.
Summit's tech guy said "put on the stock oil pump".
Milodon said "take two quarts of oil out" it's probably the oil pump bypass. Now, what the hell does taking two quarts of oil out have to do with the oil pump bypass ???
Jerks!
They say the oil is foaming and it's the motor's fault. I said there is NO sign of foaming just loss of pressure.
I told them I ordered another pan to end the debate.
I asked them if they would take it back if the pressure doesn't drop when I install the Armondo's pan.
We'll see what response that brings.
Seems they only want your money, they don't care if the parts actually perform as advertised.
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I wanted to give you fellows an update on what's happening with the Milodon pan and Summit Racing.
Summit's tech guy said "put on the stock oil pump".
Milodon said "take two quarts of oil out" it's probably the oil pump bypass. Now, what the hell does taking two quarts of oil out have to do with the oil pump bypass ???
Jerks!
They say the oil is foaming and it's the motor's fault. I said there is NO sign of foaming just loss of pressure.
I told them I ordered another pan to end the debate.
I asked them if they would take it back if the pressure doesn't drop when I install the Armondo's pan.
We'll see what response that brings.
Seems they only want your money, they don't care if the parts actually perform as advertised.
They are a retailer not a manufactuer, they dont have to care if the products they selll work or not!
No really, customer service, customer is right, make the customer happy no matter what is not the majority anymore. You will not find it at the majority of retailers anymore.
Buy it from Jet Boat Performance!
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I agree with you, keeping the customer satisfied is so rare anymore. Now it's, pay me
and shut up.
We need to find out who is determined to keep the customer satisfied and patronize them
when ever possible!
If this pan does work and the pressure doesn't drop that proves the pan was the issue. No if ands or butts. Then the ball is in their court.
If they do what I expect, NOTHING I may ask armondo if he would modify the pan to his specs.
I believe the basic shape is the same on both.
They were really nice people to talk to. If it's cost effective I would have a spare pan as opposed to a junk box.
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I wanted to give you fellows an update on what's happening with the Milodon pan and Summit Racing.
Summit's tech guy said "put on the stock oil pump".
Milodon said "take two quarts of oil out" it's probably the oil pump bypass. Now, what the hell does taking two quarts of oil out have to do with the oil pump bypass ???
Jerks!
They say the oil is foaming and it's the motor's fault. I said there is NO sign of foaming just loss of pressure.
I told them I ordered another pan to end the debate.
I asked them if they would take it back if the pressure doesn't drop when I install the Armondo's pan.
We'll see what response that brings.
Seems they only want your money, they don't care if the parts actually perform as advertised.
There are really two reasons for no pressure at higher RPM's, the pump bypass is open, or you are out of oil.
Bypass open - if the pressure gets too great, as will happen with a lot of flow and always at the upper RPM's, the bypass is supposed to open up and let the pressure go out. If the bypass sticks in the open position, then you will have no pressure until the bypass closes. Normally it opens and closes to keep the pressure consistant.
No oil - If you are using the stock type pickup, those are pretty convoluted on a BBF. If you have a leak in any section including the pump, as soon as you start putting oil on the top of the motor and the pan is no longer completely full of oil, any leaks will cause the pump to suck air as soon as the oil level falls, even if there are several quarts of oil in the pan. You check this by over filling the pan by a few quarts and seeing if you have the same problem at the same RPM.
The other issue could be how it returns. Much like in the olds, where the issue is the oil doesn't return to the pan, if your pan is not allowing the oil to reach the pickup area expediantly, then the pan is full of oil, while the pickup area is uncovered. I don't know if the milodon pan has baffels, but if not, then this isn't your problem.
Another issue could be the depth of the pickup. Too high, and the oil level drops and the pump is uncovered. Too low, and the pan blocks the flow, so at upper RPM's the pump isn't pumping enough GPM, so the pressure drops. You typically want it about 3/8ths from the pan bottom.
I don't know how the windage trays are on the BBF, but I know on the Mopars if the pan isn't cut correctly for the windage tray, then the oil gets blocked on the way to the sump. That may be something else to check.
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I'm coming to the defense of Summit Racing parts. I have been dealing with them for quite some time now and have never had a problem with their customer support. NEVER! Maybe it's attitude that got you in trouble with them. In reading through this thread I do find that at times you do come off as arrogant. Summit has a 90 day return policy and if you were to box the pan up and return it as not a fitting part for your application, you would have received a credit for it (refund).
Next, if you rebuilt your 460 back to stock specifications, why would you need a high volume oil pump in the first place? Seems to me that you would be pumping all your oil out of the pan and it doesn't have time to return for proper circulation. Just because you pay big bucks for a part doesn't mean that you are going to get the performance out of that part in your particular application. I see so many people think they can just bolt on parts and expect a somewhat stock motor to become some 1100 HP behemoth drag motor. Maybe Summit was right, put your stock oil pump on and see what happens.
Just my 2 cents, for what it's worth.
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I've been very polite to your buddies. I also have bought many many parts from Summit over the last 25 years or so.
I don't however share your desire to spend "big bucks" on parts that don't work as advertised and just eat it when they don't.
My beef is with Milodon, I'm just trying to enlist the help of Summit to get them to take the pan back.
It's easy to come off as arrogant in an email. You can neither hear the tone nor the frustration of all the hours of work being in vain. It's all subject to readers interpretation, One guy would say "I understand" the other "he's arrogant"
Back on track here, I can't pump a 6 quart pan dry with the same brand HV pump as I'm using now on a 10 quart pan.
How do you explain the manufacturer telling someone to drain 2 or so quarts out of a 10 quart pan and try that? They are trying to blame it on the pump bypass?? Am I missing something here, how does taking oil out of a pan fix a bad oil pump bypass?
Summit says try a stock pump. If I'm pumping the pan dry why would you take oil OUT? If it's a pump bybass why would you take oil OUT ??? Why would you go to a stock pump and not a new HV pump if it's a bypass? Does this sound like crap and a run around to anyone else or is it just me?
So now I'm running a 10 quart pan with a bit over 7 quarts of oil in it. This by the way has stopped the oil pressure drop. Hmmm, I guess it fixed the pump. The HV pump that is.
Did I get what I paid for? NO. Does it indicate a problem with their pan that they know about, I certainly think so. What do you guys think?
Now back to your statement of I'm pumping the pan dry with that HV pump. How can I pump a 10 quart pan dry with 10 quarts of oil in it but not if I only put in 7-8 quarts??
Let's see you handle that question.
What makes you think it's the pump and not the windage tray?
The fellow I'm buying the new pan from said he feels it's a lack of baffles and gates in addition to crappy windage tray. He feels the oil is following the crank due to the crappy windage tray and not draining back fast enough due to the lack of gates and prober baffles.
I would like to thank you gentlemen that recommended Armondo's racing pans. They were really nice to talk to and very informative.
Next, should I just say "close enough I only paid $400+ no biggie" and use this Milodon pan for a parts box? Not me, I think I should say "wait a minute, this isn't what I paid for, I can only run between 7 and 8 quarts in a 10 quart pan.
If a part doesn't work up to my expectations it's gone. Arrogant? I call it particular and fussy. I'm willing to pay a fair price for what I need with the expectations of getting what I pay for.
That used to be the American way, pride in craftsmanship.
I guess it depends on which side of the fence you are on maybe someday you'll be on the other side too and you may come across as arrogant.
I hope this string prevents just one person from going through the crap I have.
Sorry for the length of this post.
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I've been very polite to your buddies. I also have bought many many parts from Summit over the last 25 years or so.
Ditto, not polite sounding all the time. Sorry.
I don't however share your desire to spend "big bucks" on parts that don't work as advertised and just eat it when they don't.
Nor do I but I do buy parts I know will work and not just something because someone else says they are great. You have to do your own home work.
My beef is with Milodon, I'm just trying to enlist the help of Summit to get them to take the pan back.
Then take it out on Milodon, as I said, Summit will take all parts back as long as they aren't ruined within 90 days.
It's easy to come off as arrogant in an email. You can neither hear the tone nor the frustration of all the hours of work being in vain. It's all subject to readers interpretation, One guy would say "I understand" the other "he's arrogant"
This is very true and I may have jumped the gun but it's just how it seemed to come off.
Back on track here, I can't pump a 6 quart pan dry with the same brand HV pump as I'm using now on a 10 quart pan.
Sounds to me then the pump is bad not the pan. If it's not pumping, that shouldn't have anything to do with the pan.
How do you explain the manufacturer telling someone to drain 2 or so quarts out of a 10 quart pan and try that? They are trying to blame it on the pump bypass?? Am I missing something here, how does taking oil out of a pan fix a bad oil pump bypass?
Which manufacturer? The pan or the pump?
Summit says try a stock pump. If I'm pumping the pan dry why would you take oil OUT? If it's a pump bybass why would you take oil OUT ??? Why would you go to a stock pump and not a new HV pump if it's a bypass? Does this sound like crap and a run around to anyone else or is it just me?
Because it would eliminate that part of the upgrade to the system. Only stands to reason, you make one upgrade or part change at a time so you know at what point the system fails. It works. I'll stop now. Good luck and no hard feelings
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Right on Ralph, you nailed it (Milidon pan w/460 Ford). ;)
Is it just me or does Speedy deserve a pay raise? :D
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...why would you need a high volume oil pump in the first place? Seems to me that you would be pumping all your oil out of the pan and it doesn't have time to return for proper circulation.
Generally speaking and assuming all else is exactly the same in a given engine (engine clearances, oil type, oil temp, oil pressure, etc) the high volume pump will not pump any more oil than a standard volume oil pump and therefore has no greater ability to "pump the pan dry." The HV pump simply has the ability to send more oil if and when needed, which can be a godsend in a sustained high rpm marine application engine.
LO
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Generally speaking and assuming all else is exactly the same in a given engine (engine clearances, oil type, oil temp, oil pressure, etc) the high volume pump will not pump any more oil than a standard volume oil pump and therefore has no greater ability to "pump the pan dry." The HV pump simply has the ability to send more oil if and when needed, which can be a godsend in a sustained high rpm marine application engine.
LO
Good to know info right there. ::) What about high pressure oil pumps?
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Thank you! And no hard feelings. I think it's great to have a spirited discussion. It helps
unload the frustrations and gets some great ideas going for a solution.
Thank you all again.
PS I don't want anyone to miss the part that today with around 7 quarts of oil this engine
DID NOT LOSE OIL PRESSURE RUNNING 5000 RPM'S. I just ran it up and backed it off.
WITH THE HV OIL PUMP!
IT WAS NOT THE OIL PUMP AS MOST ALL OF YOU SAID ALL ALONG, SO YOU CAN GIVE EVERYONE ELSE
AN "I told you so" ;D
SO A BIIIIIG THANK YOU.
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I forgot to mention the one recommending I take oil out of the pan was Milodon.
Again, I appologize for comming across as arrogant, believe me it was frustration.
I would like to thank you all again for steering me away from the pump and to the windage in the pan. Calling Armondo was such a big help and I would never have known about him with out you guys.
This is a great forum and the knowledge available here is staggering!
Thank you again.
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Sure was a great day on the lake, I hope everyone had a great holiday.