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herrhauptman

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Re: Reversion
« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2014, 06:25:56 PM »
I became involved with jet boats a long time ago, and I have seen some really goofy setups guys have made for their cooling systems. I have seen engines where the frost plugs got pushed out of the block because they had so much water pressure.  I had a customer at one time , and he had this fluctuating water temperature, didn't run a thermostat, had all kinds of manual valves for this and that, and the only way it would even begin to remain somewhat constant, was when it was wide open. It was a race boat, but still this was ridiculous.  I thought about how to make this somewhat simpler and less hands-on, and more automatic.  I was told thermostats don't work. I thought, they work in everything else, why wouldn't they work in a boat engine.  So, first of all, I installed a pressure gauge, and went for a ride. At speed, we had 120 P.S.I. No wonder the thermostat wouldn't work.  I drilled the back of the intake manifold, and put two 1/8" lines out the back to remove any possible air pockets from the block, (like an outboard). I then added a bypass line to the line coming straight from the pump that just dumped straight overboard. This reduced the block pressure to around 40 P.S.I at speed. I added a second bypass line with a ball valve to bring the water pressure down to 15- 20 P.S.I. (with the thermostat closed). There is also a third line that goes to the headers which is also regulated. There is a single line that comes out of the thermostat housing (-8) which goes to the oil cooler and then dumps overboard. This has worked perfectly for me.  I have done it many times, and it always works the same.  There are no wild temperature fluctuations, the oil warms up quickly, no water in the engine, and on step, it maintains the temperature which the thermostat is calibrated for. It has never given a problem.  There is an unbelievable amount of water available from the pump. When I first put it together, I didn't know if it would work, but it does. One thing to remember, is to put a pressure gauge on, just to monitor what is happening.  Once you know, you can take it off.  The key is to keep the block pressure where the thermostat can do it's job. The water pressure will drop when the thermostat opens, but it will come back as soon as it closes again. I have never had an overheating situation, or running too cold. Just like a car. There is not so much pressure at idle (around 5 P.S.I), but it doesn't matter, the engine stays the same temperature.
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Re: Reversion
« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2014, 06:50:54 PM »
That's how mine is set up and works fine too. I don't understand why you would not want a thermostat like some people say

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GT Jets

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Re: Reversion
« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2014, 06:55:48 PM »
I became involved with jet boats a long time ago, and I have seen some really goofy setups guys have made for their cooling systems. I have seen engines where the frost plugs got pushed out of the block because they had so much water pressure.

I have also been around jet boats and jet boating since about 1985, even raced some of you crazy Canadians in some whitewater marathon races.

I had a customer at one time , and he had this fluctuating water temperature, didn't run a thermostat, had all kinds of manual valves for this and that, and the only way it would even begin to remain somewhat constant, was when it was wide open. It was a race boat, but still this was ridiculous.  I thought about how to make this somewhat simpler and less hands-on, and more automatic.  I was told thermostats don't work.

I thought, they work in everything else, why wouldn't they work in a boat engine.  So, first of all, I installed a pressure gauge, and went for a ride. At speed, we had 120 P.S.I. No wonder the thermostat wouldn't work.  I drilled the back of the intake manifold, and put two 1/8" lines out the back to remove any possible air pockets from the block, (like an outboard).

This is what we do also, with the exception of I used 1/2" on the full race motor. This right here is key fellas...

 
I then added a bypass line to the line coming straight from the pump that just dumped straight overboard. This reduced the block pressure to around 40 P.S.I at speed. I added a second bypass line with a ball valve to bring the water pressure down to 15- 20 P.S.I. (with the thermostat closed). There is also a third line that goes to the headers which is also regulated. There is a single line that comes out of the thermostat housing (-8) which goes to the oil cooler and then dumps overboard. This has worked perfectly for me.  I have done it many times, and it always works the same.  There are no wild temperature fluctuations, the oil warms up quickly, no water in the engine, and on step, it maintains the temperature which the thermostat is calibrated for. It has never given a problem.

There are two instances where I think you have the opportunity for an issue... One, on the rivers, there can be a huge amount of sand/silt mixed in with the water, when the velocities drop as much as they do, this sand gets trapped in the jackets of the block. They way we did the rock dodger was to plumb the incoming cooling water into the drain holes in the block. The second issue is at idle, the pressure in the block is fairly low and "static" if the stat is closed/mostly closed, this causes major temperature fluctuation between one cylinder to the others and this is why I always say that if you are going to run a thermostat, run a block mounted pump. The automotive style pump will keep the water circulating within the block and homogenize the water temps throughout the engine.

There is an unbelievable amount of water available from the pump. When I first put it together, I didn't know if it would work, but it does. One thing to remember, is to put a pressure gauge on, just to monitor what is happening.  Once you know, you can take it off. 

Another key point.

The key is to keep the block pressure where the thermostat can do it's job. The water pressure will drop when the thermostat opens, but it will come back as soon as it closes again. I have never had an overheating situation, or running too cold.

I can see why.

 
Just like a car. There is not so much pressure at idle (around 5 P.S.I), but it doesn't matter, the engine stays the same temperature.

The only thing a car thermostat has to fight is the water pump pressure, which is just a poorly built centrifugal pump, at 8000 RPM it cavitates so bad, it cant make very much pressure...

Your system sounds awesome and well thought out. I am one that thinks that zero moving parts and calculating the water flow required and sizing it for that flow is a much easier way to do things, but I like what you have done here. I am humbled by your post.

To all on the boards, this is how you debate this very touchy subject. Everything herrhauptman says has something with it to back up what the train of thought is.


It is a pleasure sir. 8)

GT

  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

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Re: Reversion
« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2014, 07:14:42 PM »
I have an eighth inch hole drilled in my thermostat to keep water circulating at idle when the t stay closes

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Re: Reversion
« Reply #29 on: March 16, 2014, 07:16:59 PM »
T stat

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Re: Reversion
« Reply #30 on: March 16, 2014, 07:32:44 PM »
I have an eighth inch hole drilled in my thermostat to keep water circulating at idle when the t stay closes

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That eighth-inch hole will get the air out from under it, but unless you are allowing water to leave the engine through the rear of the engine or have a water pump, the possibility of hot spots is still present.

Also too, never allow the engine temp to get above 160*F, that is where the minerals and the salts in the water start to solidify and separate... You car can do it because of the treated water (antifreeze and clean clear water).

GT
« Last Edit: March 16, 2014, 09:50:09 PM by GT Jets »
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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Ray

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Re: Reversion
« Reply #31 on: March 16, 2014, 07:38:13 PM »
Mhmm hadn't thought of that. Makes sense. I like talking with you guys you really know your stuff

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Re: Reversion
« Reply #32 on: March 16, 2014, 07:39:23 PM »
Where exactly would I drill the Hoke in the back of the engine

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Re: Reversion
« Reply #33 on: March 16, 2014, 09:51:57 PM »
Where exactly would I drill the Hoke in the back of the engine

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Most (not all) intake manifolds have an area at the rear of the engine that blocks off the two cylinder head water ports. On a big block Chevy it would be on each side of the distributor, much easier on a big Ford.

GT
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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beerjet

  • Karma: +81/-0
Re: Reversion
« Reply #34 on: March 16, 2014, 10:23:54 PM »
Most (not all) intake manifolds have an area at the rear of the engine that blocks off the two cylinder head water ports. On a big block Chevy it would be on each side of the distributor, much easier on a big Ford.

GT
Edelbrock makes a manifold with ports at all 4 corners...
Never see them in boats though.
I think it's the Air Gap.

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LakesOnly

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Re: Reversion
« Reply #35 on: March 17, 2014, 10:57:00 AM »
I just rebuilt my 454 blower motor and changed my EMI to Lighting headers. I blew up the last one due to what I think was reversion...Thank you in advance....
Why do you think reversion is the culprit to your engine failure? What failed/what was the final diagnosis at tear down?

LO
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74hondo

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Re: Reversion
« Reply #36 on: March 17, 2014, 11:25:07 AM »
Question on the op , are the lightning headers water jacketed able to be sealed and use a dump  line from them? May be a dumb question as I only have experience with ot headers.

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beerjet

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Re: Reversion
« Reply #37 on: March 17, 2014, 01:34:13 PM »
Question on the op , are the lightning headers water jacketed able to be sealed and use a dump  line from them? May be a dumb question as I only have experience with ot headers.

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The inner header tube protrudes out past the outer jacket at the end for all your overboard water to exit....
Due to the heat, an entire, rigid, exhaust would have to be fabricated and even then would run hot as hell dumping down into the transome.

-beerjet-

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Re: Reversion
« Reply #38 on: March 17, 2014, 01:34:59 PM »
Question on the op , are the lightning headers water jacketed able to be sealed and use a dump  line from them? May be a dumb question as I only have experience with ot headers.

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No.
The inner header tube protrudes out past the outer jacket at the end for all your overboard water to exit....
Due to the heat, an entire, rigid, exhaust would have to be fabricated and even then would run hot as hell dumping down into the transome.


-beerjet-
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74hondo

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Re: Reversion
« Reply #39 on: March 17, 2014, 02:18:32 PM »
On a jacketed header is any cooling water injected into the exhaust stream as in ot headers? Without the old exhaust having a leaking I'm trying to understand how reversion would happed to the O P. I understand how it happens on OTs.

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Re: Reversion
« Reply #40 on: March 17, 2014, 03:46:29 PM »
On a jacketed header is any cooling water injected into the exhaust stream as in ot headers? Without the old exhaust having a leaking I'm trying to understand how reversion would happed to the O P. I understand how it happens on OTs.

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Reversion would occur at the mixing point, which is at the end of the collector before the rubber bellows/hose.

There is no water in the individual header tubes. Just at the collector. Completely different deal than a water injected header.

GT

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« Last Edit: March 17, 2014, 08:25:33 PM by GT Jets »
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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Ray

74hondo

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Re: Reversion
« Reply #41 on: March 17, 2014, 04:11:49 PM »
That's how it seemed to work. That's for the solid answers!

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Getr wet

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Re: Reversion
« Reply #42 on: March 17, 2014, 08:10:51 PM »
thanks guys for the feed back. I attached a few pictures. One was my blown motor with the EMI headers. Why I think it was reversion was my back two cylinders were full of water and broken valves. The second one is with the new motor and the lighting headers. The other two are out of performance boat magazine which shows OT pipes with it T off and a ball valve which exits the transom. They built an new motor with lighting headers and keep the same set up. I am getting mix comment here, I should just keep both running to the headers and see what haven in the first few runs.. Thanks again for comments..
 
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Re: Reversion
« Reply #43 on: March 17, 2014, 08:17:36 PM »
pictures didn't post
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Jet for Fun

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Re: Reversion
« Reply #44 on: May 22, 2017, 07:04:40 PM »
GT Jets,

I've read a lot of your posts, great info, thanks.  Where did you learn that "above 160*F, that is where the minerals and the salts in the water start to solidify and separate"?
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Re: Reversion
« Reply #45 on: May 22, 2017, 07:23:30 PM »
I just ran a valve that's easily accessible while driving to lessen the amt. of water into the headers...I have .623 lift, 288 duration and never have I had reversion.

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