SoCal Jet Boats
Tech Talk => Engine Mechanical / Electrical => Topic started by: Getr wet on March 12, 2014, 09:44:09 PM
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I just rebuilt my 454 blower motor and changed my EMI to Lighting headers. I blew up the last one due to what I think was reversion. I am not sure what all I have in this motor regards to cam size. Has anyone ran a T off the thermostat housing to the headers and one for a dump with a ball valve to combat reversion. If so what do I need to know when doing this. Thank you in advance....
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I just rebuilt my 454 blower motor and changed my EMI to Lighting headers. I blew up the last one due to what I think was reversion. I am not sure what all I have in this motor regards to cam size. Has anyone ran a T off the thermostat housing to the headers and one for a dump with a ball valve to combat reversion. If so what do I need to know when doing this. Thank you in advance....
Stupid question, but if you have a blower, how did reversion kill it?
Got a picture of your set up?
GT
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I just rebuilt my 454 blower motor and changed my EMI to Lighting headers. I blew up the last one due to what I think was reversion. I am not sure what all I have in this motor regards to cam size. Has anyone ran a T off the thermostat housing to the headers and one for a dump with a ball valve to combat reversion. If so what do I need to know when doing this. Thank you in advance....
no tee but when I had my lighting headers made I had the exaust portion extended for revision
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Don't now what yours look like but here's mine hope this helps
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Well I am no motor head but what I have read due to the cam and your lob on the exhaust side does not close in time and sucks water back through your exhaust. I heard if you run less water through the exhaust it will lessen the chance of reversion if you have the wrong cam. I seen one boat in the performance boat magazine that had a jet with a T set up coming off the thermostat housing. If this is a stupid questions I am just trying to get info to save my butt so my wife doesn't get pissed because we're not on the water... Cheers ....
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Well I am no motor head but what I have read due to the cam and your lob on the exhaust side does not close in time and sucks water back through your exhaust. I heard if you run less water through the exhaust it will lessen the chance of reversion if you have the wrong cam. I seen one boat in the performance boat magazine that had a jet with a T set up coming off the thermostat housing. If this is a stupid questions I am just trying to get info to save my butt so my wife doesn't get pissed because we're not on the water... Cheers ....
I hear you but I would be worried about burning up exhaust hoses by restricting the water I ordered my headers through lighting with the tip extended just for the revision Probably not answering your question And all the water entering my motor leaves through my exhaust
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Not trying to be a dick, but the blower should eliminate any reversion issues.
Was the motor blown when you puked it the first time?
What causes inversion is the "pulse" in the exhaust system due to the valves being open at the same time (called overlap). With a blower, this pulse is virtually eliminated because you are moving air into the engine instead of the engine having to "pull" the air into the engine. I have yet to see a blown engine have issues with reversion, but that being said, I have not seen it all, not by a long shot.
Also to add, less water in the exhaust has little to do with reversion if the headers you are talking about are through transom. Is the water going to your headers lake temp, or from the outlet of the engine? Yes, it matters.
All this being said, you system should be considered complex and there is no real canned answer.
I hope this helps steer you in the the right direction.
GT
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Leaky lightning.....
That's the only way I can see water causing damage to a motor....
Think about how far water has to travel from the exit end of a lightning header.....
Reversion is a problem more associated with Bassett/Rewarder type headers where the water is being injected (for cooling the primaries) damn near right at the exhaust port.
And all your over board water should exit through the exhaust.
-beerjet-
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Are you saying that there isn't a T at the thermostat? And all of your engines "puke" water is being delivered to your headers?
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Are you saying that there isn't a T at the thermostat? And all of your engines "puke" water is being delivered to your headers?
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On a lightning type exhaust, it would split (either at the the thermostat housing or after) exciting your motor, fill the headers and out the back.
-beerjet-
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On a lightning type exhaust, it would split (either at the the thermostat housing or after) exciting your motor, fill the headers and out the back.
-beerjet-
I was just asking if there was a split, or if all of the exiting water was going straight to the headers, which is wrong, no matter what header system is installed..... I'm sure it's common knowledge that one exit should go straight to the piss hole and the other to the headers...... Otherwise, from what I got from the original post, it sounds like there is only one water exit at the top and it is going straight to the headers, in which all of the water pressure to the motor is the same pressure to the headers that would cause way too much water to the headers and would cause reversion.... I may have read it wrong but there shouldn't be any water to the headers under 2500-3000 rpm..... If it is going directly there, it would cause a big problem
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I was just asking if there was a split, or if all of the exiting water was going straight to the headers, which is wrong, no matter what header system is installed..... I'm sure it's common knowledge that one exit should go straight to the piss hole and the other to the headers...... Otherwise, from what I got from the original post, it sounds like there is only one water exit at the top and it is going straight to the headers, in which all of the water pressure to the motor is the same pressure to the headers that would cause way too much water to the headers and would cause reversion.... I may have read it wrong but there shouldn't be any water to the headers under 2500-3000 rpm..... If it is going directly there, it would cause a big problem
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He's running lightning headers....
-beerjet-
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Ok, do they work different than standard over transom headers? I don't know... But I can't imagine any header system that could take the entire exit pressure of the cooling system, without a piss hole..... Like I said, I may have read it wrong but it sounds like everything exits directly to the headers without the pressure release of the piss hole.... I say piss hole cuz that's all I know it to be... The actual direct discharge of the engine cooling system
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All tech bullshit aside..... I just met a chick that has NEVER been to the river!!!! How fucked up is that? She's never experienced life!!!!
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Ok, do they work different than standard over transom headers? I don't know... But I can't imagine any header system that could take the entire exit pressure of the cooling system, without a piss hole..... Like I said, I may have read it wrong but it sounds like everything exits directly to the headers without the pressure release of the piss hole.... I say piss hole cuz that's all I know it to be... The actual direct discharge of the engine cooling system
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They work almost exactly like exhaust manifolds on an I/O and yes, 100% of the water exits via the exhaust...
All tech bullshit aside..... I just met a chick that has NEVER been to the river!!!! How fucked up is that? She's never experienced life!!!!
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Bet there is an big offshore boat in the family somewhere... ;)
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I was just asking if there was a split, or if all of the exiting water was going straight to the headers, which is wrong, no matter what header system is installed..... I'm sure it's common knowledge that one exit should go straight to the piss hole and the other to the headers...... Otherwise, from what I got from the original post, it sounds like there is only one water exit at the top and it is going straight to the headers, in which all of the water pressure to the motor is the same pressure to the headers that would cause way too much water to the headers and would cause reversion.... I may have read it wrong but there shouldn't be any water to the headers under 2500-3000 rpm..... If it is going directly there, it would cause a big problem
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all the water that enters my motor leaves through my exhaust I have a decent size cam and have not had any signs of revision yet And I've used my boat all last season Don't no what else to tell you Call lighting direct. He'll tell you the same thing on another note if you didn't order your headers with revision in mind you could have a problem. My headers were ordered for a big cam through lighting in lake Elsinore
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Well I am no motor head but what I have read due to the cam and your lob on the exhaust side does not close in time and sucks water back through your exhaust. I heard if you run less water through the exhaust it will lessen the chance of reversion if you have the wrong cam. I seen one boat in the performance boat magazine that had a jet with a T set up coming off the thermostat housing. If this is a stupid questions I am just trying to get info to save my butt so my wife doesn't get pissed because we're not on the water... Cheers ....
cant tell from your pic but here's an up close pic. My tail pipe extends out proud a solid 1" past where the water exits that 1" must make the difference I personally couldn't tell you hope this helps
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Ok well I stand corrected, it just seems crazy to me to be pumping water to the headers that much but hey... If that's the way it works then idfk..... Personally I quit running water to mine, if they get blue, they do
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Ok well I stand corrected, it just seems crazy to me to be pumping water to the headers that much but hey... If that's the way it works then idfk..... Personally I quit running water to mine, if they get blue, they do
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These are through transom jacketed headers.... If you shut the water off to them, the boat sinks... You need to get out more... ;)
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These are through transom jacketed headers.... If you shut the water off to them, the boat sinks... You need to get out more... ;)
Ecm is referring to OT's which have almost no water running to them.
-beerjet-
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Ecm is referring to OT's which have almost no water running to them.
-beerjet-
ECM has referred to OT headers three times in the same thread, I was just clarifying that these were eldifferento... ;)
Learning spanglish as a second language... Howd' I do?
GT
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ECM has referred to OT headers three times in the same thread, I was just clarifying that these were eldifferento... ;)
Learning spanglish as a second language... Howd' I do?
GT
Ha ha ha!
Pretty-fuckin-good !
-beerjet-
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Hello, I want to offer my two cents' worth. I have seen a lot of cooling system setups, and most often people overlook the volume and pressure that a jet pump is capable of. If the cooling system is not plumbed properly, it leads to all sorts of problems. I know with my own outfit, I run a thermostat, and I regulate my cooling water to be no more than 20 P.S.I. Also, I regulate the water going into the headers, so that there is barely any visible steam. This works, and has been working for 20 years. Another important thing to remember is that when you shut off, there should be no water in the exhaust system. How you achieve this, is up to you, but it will work, and regulate the engine temperatures properly, without fluctuating up and down, or getting water into the engine itself. I hope this helps.
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Hello, I want to offer my two cents' worth. I have seen a lot of cooling system setups, and most often people overlook the volume and pressure that a jet pump is capable of. If the cooling system is not plumbed properly, it leads to all sorts of problems. I know with my own outfit, I run a thermostat, and I regulate my cooling water to be no more than 20 P.S.I. Also, I regulate the water going into the headers, so that there is barely any visible steam. This works, and has been working for 20 years. Another important thing to remember is that when you shut off, there should be no water in the exhaust system. How you achieve this, is up to you, but it will work, and regulate the engine temperatures properly, without fluctuating up and down, or getting water into the engine itself. I hope this helps.
Not getting into this one again, but how are you regulating the block pressure?
Also, to add, I have five reasons that the thermostat kits do not do what you think they do... Lets just say I am not a fan.
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I've seen the regulated pressure valves, they pretty much regulate the pressure straight out of the jet with a bypass hose that goes straight from the valve to a piss hole out the back I think, I don't run one mine is just the good old gate valve at the jet... I've also seen the billet thermostat housings with like 9 hoses coming out of it, don't quite understand the purpose of all of that...... But back to the original topic, I've never seen the lightening set up in depth I guess.... Learn something new everyday
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I became involved with jet boats a long time ago, and I have seen some really goofy setups guys have made for their cooling systems. I have seen engines where the frost plugs got pushed out of the block because they had so much water pressure. I had a customer at one time , and he had this fluctuating water temperature, didn't run a thermostat, had all kinds of manual valves for this and that, and the only way it would even begin to remain somewhat constant, was when it was wide open. It was a race boat, but still this was ridiculous. I thought about how to make this somewhat simpler and less hands-on, and more automatic. I was told thermostats don't work. I thought, they work in everything else, why wouldn't they work in a boat engine. So, first of all, I installed a pressure gauge, and went for a ride. At speed, we had 120 P.S.I. No wonder the thermostat wouldn't work. I drilled the back of the intake manifold, and put two 1/8" lines out the back to remove any possible air pockets from the block, (like an outboard). I then added a bypass line to the line coming straight from the pump that just dumped straight overboard. This reduced the block pressure to around 40 P.S.I at speed. I added a second bypass line with a ball valve to bring the water pressure down to 15- 20 P.S.I. (with the thermostat closed). There is also a third line that goes to the headers which is also regulated. There is a single line that comes out of the thermostat housing (-8) which goes to the oil cooler and then dumps overboard. This has worked perfectly for me. I have done it many times, and it always works the same. There are no wild temperature fluctuations, the oil warms up quickly, no water in the engine, and on step, it maintains the temperature which the thermostat is calibrated for. It has never given a problem. There is an unbelievable amount of water available from the pump. When I first put it together, I didn't know if it would work, but it does. One thing to remember, is to put a pressure gauge on, just to monitor what is happening. Once you know, you can take it off. The key is to keep the block pressure where the thermostat can do it's job. The water pressure will drop when the thermostat opens, but it will come back as soon as it closes again. I have never had an overheating situation, or running too cold. Just like a car. There is not so much pressure at idle (around 5 P.S.I), but it doesn't matter, the engine stays the same temperature.
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That's how mine is set up and works fine too. I don't understand why you would not want a thermostat like some people say
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I became involved with jet boats a long time ago, and I have seen some really goofy setups guys have made for their cooling systems. I have seen engines where the frost plugs got pushed out of the block because they had so much water pressure.
I have also been around jet boats and jet boating since about 1985, even raced some of you crazy Canadians in some whitewater marathon races.
I had a customer at one time , and he had this fluctuating water temperature, didn't run a thermostat, had all kinds of manual valves for this and that, and the only way it would even begin to remain somewhat constant, was when it was wide open. It was a race boat, but still this was ridiculous. I thought about how to make this somewhat simpler and less hands-on, and more automatic. I was told thermostats don't work.
I thought, they work in everything else, why wouldn't they work in a boat engine. So, first of all, I installed a pressure gauge, and went for a ride. At speed, we had 120 P.S.I. No wonder the thermostat wouldn't work. I drilled the back of the intake manifold, and put two 1/8" lines out the back to remove any possible air pockets from the block, (like an outboard).
This is what we do also, with the exception of I used 1/2" on the full race motor. This right here is key fellas...
I then added a bypass line to the line coming straight from the pump that just dumped straight overboard. This reduced the block pressure to around 40 P.S.I at speed. I added a second bypass line with a ball valve to bring the water pressure down to 15- 20 P.S.I. (with the thermostat closed). There is also a third line that goes to the headers which is also regulated. There is a single line that comes out of the thermostat housing (-8) which goes to the oil cooler and then dumps overboard. This has worked perfectly for me. I have done it many times, and it always works the same. There are no wild temperature fluctuations, the oil warms up quickly, no water in the engine, and on step, it maintains the temperature which the thermostat is calibrated for. It has never given a problem.
There are two instances where I think you have the opportunity for an issue... One, on the rivers, there can be a huge amount of sand/silt mixed in with the water, when the velocities drop as much as they do, this sand gets trapped in the jackets of the block. They way we did the rock dodger was to plumb the incoming cooling water into the drain holes in the block. The second issue is at idle, the pressure in the block is fairly low and "static" if the stat is closed/mostly closed, this causes major temperature fluctuation between one cylinder to the others and this is why I always say that if you are going to run a thermostat, run a block mounted pump. The automotive style pump will keep the water circulating within the block and homogenize the water temps throughout the engine.
There is an unbelievable amount of water available from the pump. When I first put it together, I didn't know if it would work, but it does. One thing to remember, is to put a pressure gauge on, just to monitor what is happening. Once you know, you can take it off.
Another key point.
The key is to keep the block pressure where the thermostat can do it's job. The water pressure will drop when the thermostat opens, but it will come back as soon as it closes again. I have never had an overheating situation, or running too cold.
I can see why.
Just like a car. There is not so much pressure at idle (around 5 P.S.I), but it doesn't matter, the engine stays the same temperature.
The only thing a car thermostat has to fight is the water pump pressure, which is just a poorly built centrifugal pump, at 8000 RPM it cavitates so bad, it cant make very much pressure...
Your system sounds awesome and well thought out. I am one that thinks that zero moving parts and calculating the water flow required and sizing it for that flow is a much easier way to do things, but I like what you have done here. I am humbled by your post.
To all on the boards, this is how you debate this very touchy subject. Everything herrhauptman says has something with it to back up what the train of thought is.
It is a pleasure sir. 8)
GT
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I have an eighth inch hole drilled in my thermostat to keep water circulating at idle when the t stay closes
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T stat
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I have an eighth inch hole drilled in my thermostat to keep water circulating at idle when the t stay closes
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That eighth-inch hole will get the air out from under it, but unless you are allowing water to leave the engine through the rear of the engine or have a water pump, the possibility of hot spots is still present.
Also too, never allow the engine temp to get above 160*F, that is where the minerals and the salts in the water start to solidify and separate... You car can do it because of the treated water (antifreeze and clean clear water).
GT
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Mhmm hadn't thought of that. Makes sense. I like talking with you guys you really know your stuff
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Where exactly would I drill the Hoke in the back of the engine
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Where exactly would I drill the Hoke in the back of the engine
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Most (not all) intake manifolds have an area at the rear of the engine that blocks off the two cylinder head water ports. On a big block Chevy it would be on each side of the distributor, much easier on a big Ford.
GT
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Most (not all) intake manifolds have an area at the rear of the engine that blocks off the two cylinder head water ports. On a big block Chevy it would be on each side of the distributor, much easier on a big Ford.
GT
Edelbrock makes a manifold with ports at all 4 corners...
Never see them in boats though.
I think it's the Air Gap.
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I just rebuilt my 454 blower motor and changed my EMI to Lighting headers. I blew up the last one due to what I think was reversion...Thank you in advance....
Why do you think reversion is the culprit to your engine failure? What failed/what was the final diagnosis at tear down?
LO
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Question on the op , are the lightning headers water jacketed able to be sealed and use a dump line from them? May be a dumb question as I only have experience with ot headers.
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Question on the op , are the lightning headers water jacketed able to be sealed and use a dump line from them? May be a dumb question as I only have experience with ot headers.
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The inner header tube protrudes out past the outer jacket at the end for all your overboard water to exit....
Due to the heat, an entire, rigid, exhaust would have to be fabricated and even then would run hot as hell dumping down into the transome.
-beerjet-
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Question on the op , are the lightning headers water jacketed able to be sealed and use a dump line from them? May be a dumb question as I only have experience with ot headers.
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No.
The inner header tube protrudes out past the outer jacket at the end for all your overboard water to exit....
Due to the heat, an entire, rigid, exhaust would have to be fabricated and even then would run hot as hell dumping down into the transome.
-beerjet-
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On a jacketed header is any cooling water injected into the exhaust stream as in ot headers? Without the old exhaust having a leaking I'm trying to understand how reversion would happed to the O P. I understand how it happens on OTs.
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On a jacketed header is any cooling water injected into the exhaust stream as in ot headers? Without the old exhaust having a leaking I'm trying to understand how reversion would happed to the O P. I understand how it happens on OTs.
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Reversion would occur at the mixing point, which is at the end of the collector before the rubber bellows/hose.
There is no water in the individual header tubes. Just at the collector. Completely different deal than a water injected header.
GT
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That's how it seemed to work. That's for the solid answers!
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thanks guys for the feed back. I attached a few pictures. One was my blown motor with the EMI headers. Why I think it was reversion was my back two cylinders were full of water and broken valves. The second one is with the new motor and the lighting headers. The other two are out of performance boat magazine which shows OT pipes with it T off and a ball valve which exits the transom. They built an new motor with lighting headers and keep the same set up. I am getting mix comment here, I should just keep both running to the headers and see what haven in the first few runs.. Thanks again for comments..
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pictures didn't post
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GT Jets,
I've read a lot of your posts, great info, thanks. Where did you learn that "above 160*F, that is where the minerals and the salts in the water start to solidify and separate"?
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I just ran a valve that's easily accessible while driving to lessen the amt. of water into the headers...I have .623 lift, 288 duration and never have I had reversion.
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