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tamsone6

  • Karma: +7/-0
Exhaust Reversion
« on: February 23, 2015, 10:19:45 AM »
So.... This subject gets talked about quite a bit on here and I've read through all those threads on here plus a hand full of other threads online and I still have some questions.

Here's the low down on what I have.

460 bored 40 over with stock truck rods and a set of dished Pistons.

Ported d0ve heads that otherwise are stock with a set of harman long bolt logs and snails that are going to be bolted up to those.


Before it was running a set of d3 heads on those same logs with a comp cams 34-330-4 and no problems with reversion. Here's the cam specs:

110 LSA
106 ICL
275 intake dur
285 exhaust dur
219 intake dur @50
232 exhaust dur @ 50
515 intake lift
541 exhaust lift

Now honestly that cam I feel is pretty well suited for this build, and it's likely that I'm going to throw that back in there but I'm still curious about other options.

Here's the basic specs of what I was thinking about:
110 LSA
106 ICL
284 intake dur
292 exhaust dur
241 intake dur @50
239  exhaust dur @ 50
582 intake lift
600 exhaust lift

So from what I've read some guys say there's no doubt that you'll get reversion with really either of those cams, some guys say you won't get any reversion if you run snails, and some say as long as you dump the water far enough back you won't get reversion either.

Since I have very little experience with wet exhaust systems I have no idea what to believe, my gut tells me that with the logs it would be a problem but again any input into this is appreciated.

Thanks!!!




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mash on it

  • Karma: +29/-0
Re: Exhaust Reversion
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2015, 10:45:13 AM »
   I stayed at 225*/231* @ .050" with logs and snails, and no reversion issues. A few other things come into play also- exhaust above or below water line? And what intake? Mines below the water line, and running a Victor Jr. and a 3310 750 Holley. Tom @ JBP recommended to stay under 230* @ .050", (with logs n snails) and that 241*/239* might be a touch large for logs n snails and reversion, just my $.02

GT and othhers would be in the know...

Dan'l
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tamsone6

  • Karma: +7/-0
Re: Exhaust Reversion
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2015, 11:16:07 AM »
Exhaust is right at the water line, I'd say like 1/4 of the tips are in the water. I'll be running a torker intake on it.


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Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: Exhaust Reversion
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2015, 01:19:00 PM »
So.... This subject gets talked about quite a bit on here and I've read through all those threads on here plus a hand full of other threads online and I still have some questions.

Here's the low down on what I have.

460 bored 40 over with stock truck rods and a set of dished Pistons.

Ported d0ve heads that otherwise are stock with a set of harman long bolt logs and snails that are going to be bolted up to those.


Before it was running a set of d3 heads on those same logs with a comp cams 34-330-4 and no problems with reversion. Here's the cam specs:

110 LSA
106 ICL
275 intake dur
285 exhaust dur
219 intake dur @50
232 exhaust dur @ 50
515 intake lift
541 exhaust lift

Now honestly that cam I feel is pretty well suited for this build, and it's likely that I'm going to throw that back in there but I'm still curious about other options.

Here's the basic specs of what I was thinking about:
110 LSA
106 ICL
284 intake dur
292 exhaust dur
241 intake dur @50
239  exhaust dur @ 50
582 intake lift
600 exhaust lift

So from what I've read some guys say there's no doubt that you'll get reversion with really either of those cams, some guys say you won't get any reversion if you run snails, and some say as long as you dump the water far enough back you won't get reversion either.

Since I have very little experience with wet exhaust systems I have no idea what to believe, my gut tells me that with the logs it would be a problem but again any input into this is appreciated.

Thanks!!!

Do you have any flow numbers on the heads?  Look at all of the lift points <=valve lift, particularly low and mid-lift as the valve spends most of its time there.  Flow at valve lifts > what your cam generates are irrelevant.  Keep in mind that your actual exhaust flow numbers will be lower with logs installed because exhaust flow is usually measured with a short length of header pipe installed.

Looking at the numbers that you have chosen, the intensity (rate at which the tappet moves per degree of ratation) of the exhaust lobe looks a little slow to me.  Knowing your intake exhaust ratio can help you make a more educated cam selection.

Do you know your actual static compression ratio?

A cylinder with a higher compression ratio will drop pressure earlier in the power stroke.  The result will be lower pressure in the cylinder during the overlap period.  I believe that it is this that contributes to reversion.

Earlier exhaust valve opening (with a corresponding earlier exhaust valve closing can be beneficial).

Cylinders with lower compression retain higher pressures per degree of crankshaft rotation.  This means that compared to the same combination with higher compression, the cylinder pressure at exhaust valve opening will be higher and greater exhaust flow is required earlier in the exhaust stroke.  Later exhaust valve opening can be beneficial so that the greater cylinder pressure has more time to push on the piston.

Unfortunately, log style exhaust is not made to enhance scavenging.  Higher exhaust pressures result in cylinder contamination with residual exhaust gases.  Did you notice any sooting or evidence of exhaust reversion in your intake manifold?  Your intake should be shiny clean.
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tamsone6

  • Karma: +7/-0
Re: Exhaust Reversion
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2015, 01:31:53 PM »

Do you have any flow numbers on the heads?  Look at all of the lift points <=valve lift, particularly low and mid-lift as the valve spends most of its time there.  Flow at valve lifts > what your cam generates are irrelevant.  Keep in mind that your actual exhaust flow numbers will be lower with logs installed because exhaust flow is usually measured with a short length of header pipe installed.

Looking at the numbers that you have chosen, the intensity (rate at which the tappet moves per degree of ratation) of the exhaust lobe looks a little slow to me.  Knowing your intake exhaust ratio can help you make a more educated cam selection.

Do you know your actual static compression ratio?

A cylinder with a higher compression ratio will drop pressure earlier in the power stroke.  The result will be lower pressure in the cylinder during the overlap period.  I believe that it is this that contributes to reversion.

Earlier exhaust valve opening (with a corresponding earlier exhaust valve closing can be beneficial).

Cylinders with lower compression retain higher pressures per degree of crankshaft rotation.  This means that compared to the same combination with higher compression, the cylinder pressure at exhaust valve opening will be higher and greater exhaust flow is required earlier in the exhaust stroke.  Later exhaust valve opening can be beneficial so that the greater cylinder pressure has more time to push on the piston.

Unfortunately, log style exhaust is not made to enhance scavenging.  Higher exhaust pressures result in cylinder contamination with residual exhaust gases.  Did you notice any sooting or evidence of exhaust reversion in your intake manifold?  Your intake should be shiny clean.


From what I calculated I'm at 10-1. Intake


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tamsone6

  • Karma: +7/-0
Re: Exhaust Reversion
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2015, 01:32:17 PM »
Intake was clean when it came off.


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Your Mom

  • Karma: +20/-0
Re: Exhaust Reversion
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2015, 05:53:42 AM »
I have d3's ported an the little hole in exhaust welded up. Exhaust under water with thru bolt Harmans. Bout 9.5/1 RPM intake clean
284/288 adv
224/234 @50
.550/.560

Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: Exhaust Reversion
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2015, 12:50:57 PM »
I have d3's ported an the little hole in exhaust welded up. Exhaust under water with thru bolt Harmans. Bout 9.5/1 RPM intake clean
284/288 adv
224/234 @50
.550/.560

Do you have any flow data on your heads you would be willing to share?

Thanks
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tamsone6

  • Karma: +7/-0
Re: Exhaust Reversion
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2015, 10:49:34 PM »

Do you have any flow data on your heads you would be willing to share?

Thanks

Sorry forgot to mention that part... No I do not, all I know really is that they are just ported out.


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mstrader77

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Exhaust Reversion
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2015, 02:21:04 PM »
Is there differences (reversion) between Fords and Olds. My 455 runs 232/232 @.050 with logs and tips below waterline with no reversion issues.
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Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: Exhaust Reversion
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2015, 02:30:13 PM »
Is there differences (reversion) between Fords and Olds. My 455 runs 232/232 @.050 with logs and tips below waterline with no reversion issues.

One of the best quotes that I have seen on cam selection:

" The cam shaft and cylinder heads work very closely together, so closely in fact, that they are a function of each other. After a head has been reworked to its maximum flow efficiency, a proper cam can then be selected to match the head and the intended use of engine."  http://hrdracingheads.com/air_flow.html

Ultimately, it is not one part, it is the system as a whole.  Exhaust ports can work as a very efficient intake port, drawing exhaust gases (and water) back into the cylinder, if the combination is not right.  Reversion can get so bad that exhaust gases will travel up the intake port, hence the sooting in some intake manifolds.

Some factors, in addition to valve timing, that contribute to reversion are compression ratio, shape of the piston dome, intake type, port shape (including the seats and valves), shrouding, mismatch between the combustion chamber and the cylinder below the intake valve (ah la BBC), bore size, and so on.

Reading all the posts here on reversion has gotten me diving into research on this topic.  I want to know exactly where the water is coming from.  For example, I run through transom headers that have submerged tips.  My cam has an advertised duration of 308/312 @ .019 tappet lift with an @ .050 duration of 268/272.  I have some pretty bad reversion issues below 3000 RPM.  My engine doesn't calm down until about 3500 RPM.  If the water to the primary tubes is shut off completely, I do not have any reversion issues.  If, for whatever reason, water is flowing to the primary tube injection below 3500 RPM, it has actually stalled my engine.

I do not believe that water is being pulled through the transom, over the snails, up the exhaust logs, and into the engine.  I believe that it is actually smaller water droplets, suspended in the exhaust flow, that are being drawn into the cylinders.

To be honest, I never thought about pushing the limits of performance with logs before joining SCJB.  If you get the combination of parts right, you won't have the reversion issues and you will be pleased with the performance.
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Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: Exhaust Reversion
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2015, 02:40:36 PM »
Sorry forgot to mention that part... No I do not, all I know really is that they are just ported out.

This page, http://users.erols.com/srweiss/tablehdc.htm , has flow data for a lot of different makes of heads.  Depending on who did the work, how the heads were ported, valve sizes, valve shape, seat geometry, etc. your results may vary.
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Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: Exhaust Reversion
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2015, 02:07:00 PM »
In addition to dreaded milkshaked oil, reversion causes some other problems in any engine.  First, the presence of residual exhaust gasses in combustion chamber will dilute the intake charge resulting in reduced forces being applied to the pistons.  Next, the increased combustion chamber temperatures resulting from the hot residual exhaust gasses could aggravate a potential (or existing) detonation problem.  Additionally, residual exhaust gasses will retard flame front propagation during the combustion cycle.

Looking at the flow numbers listed in http://users.erols.com/srweiss/tablehdc.htm ; assuming that the port shape was not damaged, how much work was actually done, valve size, etc.; the flow numbers will fall somewhere between the following numbers.  Please note that the following exhaust flow numbers will be reduced on your boat because of the log manifolds compared to the flowbench tests which were conducted using a 2-1/8” exhaust tube/pipe.

Intake valve size:  2.08
Exhaust valve size:  1.65

Ford 429 D0VE
Lift:   Flow:  Int/Exh      Ratio:
.100      68/56               82.4%
.200   138/105            76.1%
.300   207/128            61.8%
.400   246/141            57.3%
.500   268/144            53.7%
.600   281/146            51.9
.700   N/A                     N/A


Intake valve size:  2.19
Exhaust valve size:  1.735

Ford 429 D0VE ported
Lift:   Flow:  Int/Exh      Ratio:
.100      70/59               82.4%
.200   146/119            81.5%
.300   217/149            68.7%
.400   269/167            62.1%
.500   299/174            58.2%
.600   308/180            58.4%
.700   310/-                  N/A


It is generally accepted that an intake exhaust flow ratio of 75% is considered good for a naturally aspirated performance engine.  The D0VE heads are slightly lacking in exhaust flow in both stock and large valve ported versions.  The exhaust valve flow deficiency combined with lack of scavenging present in logs (compared to headers) will need to be made up in exhaust valve opening.  High exhaust valve lift and rapid acceleration rates are necessary to get the port into a range of high-flow as quickly as possible.  A cam lobe with greater intensity, i.e. faster ramps, possibly combined with high-ratio rockers will help to even out the flow deficiency.  The exhaust port flow on these heads really starts to die off after .400 valve lift and is done around .600.  I wish that the flow numbers for .700 had been included because I think it is important to see if the flow numbers actually start to drop rather than just stalling.  If the flow numbers actually drop with increasing valve lift (or if the valve is completely removed), the airflow through the port is becoming too turbulent and quality airflow suffers because too much energy is put into turbulence rather than laminar flow.  Airflow can actually reverse direction at this point, something we are trying to avoid.  Either way, the result will be substantially reduced power output.  My recommendation on total valve lift on the exhaust side would be definitely low .600s, which your desired cam meets that requirement, but not the intensity.

One thing you didn’t mention is the type of intake and carb size you will be using.  If you are running a smallish carburetor or a restrictive intake, the restriction to flow on the intake side can result in intake pressures (greater manifold vacuum) that are lower than exhaust pressures, resulting in reversion.  Combined with restrictive exhaust, one cylinder, during its blow-down period can actually blow suspended water into an adjacent open exhaust valve during overlap period.

David Vizard Cautions about overlap and low speed drivability.  Da Viz primarily writes about engines for cars, however low speed drivability does not present the same issue in a performance street car as it does in a jet boat.  What that means to us is that the same reversion that kills low speed drivability in a performance street car also leads to the dreaded milkshake in a jet boat.  As valve overlap on a “racier” cam increases, exhaust flow reverses direction through the intake valve at low RPMs.  Low RPM means low piston speed which produces low exhaust gas speeds.  As the RPM increases, the engine starts to ‘come on the cam’ and the flow direction is as intended.

Overlap is the point where both intake and exhaust valves are open at the same time.  When looking at overlap, you want to look at total seat-to-seat valve timing or advertised duration and not the @ .050 duration.  The seat-to-seat valve timing is what the engine actually sees.  Consider a typical 280 degree cam, the intake valve open in the neighborhood of 30-degrees BTDC and the exhaust valve closes somewhere around 70-degrees ATDC.  That is approximately 100-crankshaft degrees that the valves are open at the same time.  During this period, both valves could be open some .200.  This is to initialize intake flow through scavenging from a header system.  Mr. Vizard is adamant about taking advantage of this scavenging energy, claiming that the hardest pull on the intake charge occurs during this overlap period, even before the piston passes TDC and begins its decent towards BDC.  He estimated that the scavenging affect with headers compared to manifolds could make a difference of 70 horsepower on a 700 horsepower BBC.  If the scavenging affect does not exist, as in the case with log manifolds, overlap should be reduced.

To reduce the overlap period, the Lobe Centerline Angle (LCA) is increased.    To bring this back to your original question, “how much duration can be run with log manifolds?”  If you wish to increase duration but retain the same overlap:  For any given LCA, if duration is increased, that duration will (theoretically) increase equally on both sides of the LCA.  Therefore we are only concerned about the added duration on the closing of the exhaust valve and the opening of the intake valve.  Thus, for every 2-degrees of advertised duration per lobe, the LSA must be increased 1-degree.  That means that if you increase both the intake duration and exhaust duration 2-degrees each, the LCA must be increased 2-degrees, 1-degree for half of the increased duration on the intake and 1-degree for half the increased duration on the exhaust.

The @ .050 duration can be tailored to your desired RPM range.  Once the desired lobe profile is selected, then the appropriate LCA can be calculated to arrive at the desired overlap.  I have stated several times now that my personal database of cam profiles, shared with me by various NJBA jet boat engine builders, trends toward LCA in the 114 to 120-degree range.  The majority of the truly quick jet boats have 118 to 120-degree LCAs.  Granted, those cams are installed in engines with dry tuned headers.  I also believe that those cams are intended to be more of a “nitrous” cam rather than one better suited to a naturally aspirated program.  I do find it interesting that these engines spend most of the run NA rather than on the bottle.

The question NOW becomes, what is the most overlap that can be run with log manifolds?

Cheers,

Joe
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