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SomeThingWilder

  • Karma: +4/-0
Flexplate vs Flywheel
« on: August 30, 2015, 09:10:18 PM »
Inform me of your beliefs please!!
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mobboss

  • Karma: +15/-0
Re: Flexplate vs Flywheel
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2015, 09:17:00 PM »
Wow !!! Well that depends on what you want to do with your boat??? If it's just a ski boat and family oriented a flywheel fits the bill . Now you want to race around and hot dog it !! Flexplate is the only way to go!!


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GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Flexplate vs Flywheel
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2015, 09:32:16 PM »
Wow !!! Well that depends on what you want to do with your boat??? If it's just a ski boat and family oriented a flywheel fits the bill . Now you want to race around and hot dog it !! Flexplate is the only way to go!!


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Just to get the party started. 

What does the flywheel have to do with power?

;D

GT
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

jyeager

  • Karma: +62/-0
Re: Flexplate vs Flywheel
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2015, 09:47:41 PM »
Flywheel


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lifted250

  • Karma: +6/-0
Re: Flexplate vs Flywheel
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2015, 10:05:21 PM »
Flex plate can let go over 5 k


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GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Flexplate vs Flywheel
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2015, 10:09:20 PM »
Here's my personal theory.

Anything that is going to run more than an hour at a cruise, or idle for 20 minutes at a shot,  should have a flywheel.

Anything that idles for only a few minutes and runs wot for short stints can get away with a flexplate.

A flywheel is easier on parts.

A flywheel has fewer starter issues.

A flywheel runs smoother and can idle lower with big Cams.

GT

  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

aquaholic72

  • Karma: +54/-0
Re: Flexplate vs Flywheel
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2015, 02:54:34 AM »
Flex plate can let go over 5 k


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??? Im scratchin my head on this..O0

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aquaholic72

  • Karma: +54/-0
Re: Flexplate vs Flywheel
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2015, 03:20:25 AM »
I would also like to be educated on how flywheels are easier on parts?? Cus it seams to me its just more reciprocating mass on the the crankshaft...kinda outside the subject but i put scattershields in all my gear cars because i know anything meant to have a flywheel in it isnt easy on parts!! Lol

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lifted250

  • Karma: +6/-0
Re: Flexplate vs Flywheel
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2015, 06:48:51 AM »
You can do that  I ve had them come apart  at 5500 rpm and rip threw the boat like a saw blade


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jimpen

  • Karma: +68/-0
Re: Flexplate vs Flywheel
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2015, 06:52:42 AM »

You can do that  I ve had them come apart  at 5500 rpm and rip threw the boat like a saw blade


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TCI has them for what ever rpm you need. China shit might be a problem. I run. 10000 rpm plate on my boat no worries


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capogniracing

  • Karma: +68/-0
Re: Flexplate vs Flywheel
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2015, 06:55:28 AM »

You can do that  I ve had them come apart  at 5500 rpm and rip threw the boat like a saw blade


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stop buying flex plates at harbor freight. 😜 what does it mean when they say SFI?


"RTCP"
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lifted250

  • Karma: +6/-0
Re: Flexplate vs Flywheel
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2015, 06:56:31 AM »
I don't run China  a flex late has no strength without the torque converter hooked to it not here to start a fight


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lifted250

  • Karma: +6/-0
Re: Flexplate vs Flywheel
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2015, 07:00:22 AM »
I have Sfi flywheel not harbor freight


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capogniracing

  • Karma: +68/-0
Re: Flexplate vs Flywheel
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2015, 07:02:39 AM »

I don't run China  a flex late has no strength without the torque converter hooked to it not here to start a fight


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then you must have a different problem if they are coming apart at 5500, I'm spinning my motor 72-7300 no problems with flex plates


"RTCP"
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lifted250

  • Karma: +6/-0
Re: Flexplate vs Flywheel
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2015, 07:10:34 AM »
Ok  I know of some it happen to besides me so not trying to start a fight  or arguments over this


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GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Flexplate vs Flywheel
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2015, 07:42:38 AM »
I would also like to be educated on how flywheels are easier on parts?? Cus it seams to me its just more reciprocating mass on the the crankshaft...kinda outside the subject but i put scattershields in all my gear cars because i know anything meant to have a flywheel in it isnt easy on parts!! Lol

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Flywheels are designed to deaden harmonics. The added mass, (when balanced properly) provides a smooth centrifugal gyro. It takes the impact out of driveshaft components  and removes a lot of the hammering due to a large camshaft.

A stick car has impacts and high torque changes not seen in a jet pump.

Literally the ONLY positive thing a flexplate does is increase the ability to rev quicker out of the hole.  I doubt seriously anyone on here could tell the difference from one to the other. The pump has something to do with it also, if your spinning a stainless impeller, the mass may male a difference, but we're talking milliseconds.

The marathon boats run aluminum flywheels in most cases.

You do see flexplates, but they're the ones that typically have starter issues.

I'm not sure about the flexplate alone coming apart at the upper rpm, but suspect there was something else causing these failures.

JMO

GT
« Last Edit: August 31, 2015, 10:48:14 AM by GT Jets »
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

MorePower

  • Karma: +20/-0
Re: Flexplate vs Flywheel
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2015, 10:19:53 AM »
I ran a flexplate on my olds. It definitely made for more vibration at idle, but revved a lot faster. It handled 5k without  sawing through my hull... Motor is still running tits. Rev limit was set at 5100

I don't always prefer fast revving for the olds, but when I do... I prefer Dos Equis


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GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Flexplate vs Flywheel
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2015, 10:50:00 AM »
I ran a flexplate on my olds. It definitely made for more vibration at idle, but revved a lot faster. It handled 5k without  sawing through my hull... Motor is still running tits. Rev limit was set at 5100

I don't always prefer fast revving for the olds, but when I do... I prefer Dos Equis


Sent with my Fingers

Revved a lot faster in the water, or on the trailer?

GT

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  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

mobboss

  • Karma: +15/-0
Re: Flexplate vs Flywheel
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2015, 10:53:07 AM »
Ha!! Yah I have a flywheel , and it does slow down the revs . Throttle response is slowed . And yes it will numb the shakes .


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Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: Flexplate vs Flywheel
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2015, 11:02:39 AM »
There are a few things that I would like to point out.

First and foremost is the difference between internal and external balance.  The first picture is of the external balance counterweight on an OEM 454 flexplate.  External balancing is done because of improperly designed counterweights on the crankshaft.  Not enough mass was added to the counterweight, most likely because of the manufacturing process, but could also be because heavier (larger) pistons and rods were installed.

External balancing is, by far, much more economical than internal balancing.  External balancing can be achieved by adding a welded or bolted (2nd picture) counterweight to a flywheel of flexplate, drilling holes or machining slots 180-degrees opposite of where the mass needs to be added, or a combination thereof.  Removing material rather than adding material allows for an ultimately lighter rotating assembly.

IMO, external balance is acceptable for stock and mild performance engine builds only.  This is because of the imbalance of the flywheel/flexplate (and damper) being placed on the ends of the crankshaft, unsupported by bearings on both sides, as is the case with the crankshaft's integral counterweights.  Any serious effort build should be internally balanced.

A note on balancing an engine.  If I am building an external balance engine, I will balance the crankshaft with the damper and flywheel/flexplate installed.  In an internally balanced application, the flywheel/flexplate and damper/hub get balanced independently of the crankshaft.  I want to make sure that all are a true neutral balance, should I ever need to change a component.

Some engines have options to run different diameters (tooth count) flexplates/flywheels.  My 3rd and 4th pictures illustrate the difference between the Chevy 168 tooth wheel and the 153, which equates to about 1.344-inch difference in diameter.  12.844-inch diameter for the 153 tooth and 14.188-inch diameter for the 168 tooth wheel.  I prefer the small wheel for two reasons, 1. Reduced inertia and 2. Increased cranking RPM.

The two flexplates pictured weigh about the same because the smaller SFI approved plate is made from slightly thicker 4130 chromoly, however it will theoretically allow the engine to rev faster because of the reduced inertia.  "Inertia is the resistance of any physical object to any change in its state of motion including changes to its speed and direction or the state of rest" ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertia).  More specifically, "rotational inertia, the property that a rotating rigid body maintains its state of uniform rotational motion. Its angular momentum is unchanged, unless an external torque is applied; this is also called conservation of angular momentum."

Inertia = (1/2)(Mass)(Radius^2)

Basically, the more weight that can be removed from the outside diameter, the faster it can be accelerated.

I don't mean that someone could look at any one component of a system, such as a lightened flywheel/flexplate and say, "that is why this engine has such good throttle response, it has a lightened flywheel!"  All else being equal, light weight pistons will have the most dramatic affect as will anything that can be done to reduce reciprocating mass.  Reducing the weight of the rods and drilling the crankshaft rod journals allows for lighter counterweights. And so on and so forth.

Regarding flywheel/flexplate cracking/breaking, I have seen a surprising lot of broken wheels of all kinds at NJBA events.  I think this has to do with the conservation of angular momentum where the axis of a flywheel is not easily changed.  This axis changes every time the direction and/or trim of the boat changes.  I have not witnessed the same in road racing or wheel-standing drag cars. Maybe the transmission input shaft provides enough support to prevent that.

Since it took me so long to type all this on my cell phone, please excuse any redundant information.

Cheers,

Joe
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"I want to roll with my brother Joe" - Joe Bateman - January 29, 1950 ~ November 27, 2013

Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: Flexplate vs Flywheel
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2015, 11:07:40 AM »
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"I want to roll with my brother Joe" - Joe Bateman - January 29, 1950 ~ November 27, 2013

Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: Flexplate vs Flywheel
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2015, 11:54:20 AM »
I had a '71 340 4-speed Duster that I spent a lot of time developing.  It started life with a 30# flywheel.  I had read a lot about heavy flywheels making a small block car launch like a big block car.  Now, I call BS on this one.

I ran down to George at McLeod and ordered a 60# flywheel.  Fortunately George talked me out of the 100# flywheel.

What I noticed, the engine revved A LOT slower, both free revving the engine and while accelerating the car.  It also limited the peak RPM that the engine would rev.  I couldn't believe it, all the work I had done to make it rev fast was gone!

I went back to McLeod, crying about my lost performance and George said, "yeah, that's what we expected."  He said, they can lighten it for me.  Trying to play it safe, I bought a second flywheel which ended up at 23#.  All my RPM came back, both free revving and revving during acceleration increased, and my launch improved.

To paraphrase my favorite author, Carroll Smith, run the minimum diameter flywheel that you can hook a starter system to and the flywheel needs have only enough mass to allow the engine to idle without stalling.
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"I want to roll with my brother Joe" - Joe Bateman - January 29, 1950 ~ November 27, 2013

Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: Flexplate vs Flywheel
« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2015, 12:54:11 PM »
One complaint that I keep hearing about flexplates is the amount of runout they tend to have.  I attribute this to being a stamped sheet metal part with a welded ring gear.  Both the stamping/forming process and the welding induce stresses into the finished part.  The result is that the flexplate appears to wobble while observing it with the engine running.  I do believe that having a torque converter bolted to it, inside a transmission, does a lot clean up said runout.

Meziere manufactures two billet 4340 flexplates, a 168-tooth PN FPS041 and a 139-tooth PN FPS042.  Josh Patridge at ISG makes a billet spoked 168-tooth flexplate (pictured).  All of these are for internally balanced Chevy applications.  I have not yet tried the the 139-tooth wheel yet. I do not know how much drama is involved in getting an OE starter location to work.  Meziere makes some really nice starters and might offer a special starter for this application, however I have the feeling that a custom rear-mount starter, like the one pictured, might be required.

GN7, on the other hand, never felt it was worth the hassle to make a small diameter wheel work.

Cheers,

Joe
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"I want to roll with my brother Joe" - Joe Bateman - January 29, 1950 ~ November 27, 2013

Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: Flexplate vs Flywheel
« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2015, 12:56:11 PM »
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"I want to roll with my brother Joe" - Joe Bateman - January 29, 1950 ~ November 27, 2013

Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: Flexplate vs Flywheel
« Reply #24 on: August 31, 2015, 01:13:24 PM »
Lastly, there are thickness differences between flexplates and flywheels.  An OE Chevy flexplate is made from .125 (1/8") material.  The SFI plate in my earlier post is .150 thick 4130 chromoly.  Flywheels, on the other hand, are typically .400 thick.  This 1/4"+ difference in thickness at the flange can cause clearance issues with the drive line, making a flywheel not a direct bolt-on replacement for a flexplate, without addressing drive line length.

Swapping from a flywheel to a flexplate should not be a problem, just make sure that there is enough spline engagement (one shaft diameter minimum) between the yoke and the pump shaft.

Hopefully, that's more than you ever wanted to know about the topic.

Cheers,

Joe
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"I want to roll with my brother Joe" - Joe Bateman - January 29, 1950 ~ November 27, 2013

 


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