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GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Flexplate vs Flywheel
« Reply #25 on: August 31, 2015, 01:14:17 PM »
I would pay ten bucks to see a back to back test on a jet from a full on flywheel to a flex with no other changes. I'm not convinced that it would make that much difference being an you ate already spinning 40+ pounds of crap in the pump.

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  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
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Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: Flexplate vs Flywheel
« Reply #26 on: August 31, 2015, 02:16:59 PM »
I would pay ten bucks to see a back to back test on a jet from a full on flywheel to a flex with no other changes. I'm not convinced that it would make that much difference being an you ate already spinning 40+ pounds of crap in the pump.

As you have stated, it is not focusing on just one small aspect of the whole.  It is the whole system!

Switching from 850g+ Speed Pro ashtrays to light weight ~600g CP pistons, which usually include 1/16 or .043 light tension rings instead of the stock 5/64 rings; light weight Oliver, Carillo, or Crower rods; crankshafts with lightened and detailed rod throws and profiled counterweights; light weight lifters, valves, titanium retainers, and rockers, but heavy 7/16 push rods; and every other moving part in the engine lightened.  It all adds up.

Of course, there is the snowball effect.  The light weight pistons come with the benefit of an increased compression ratio, which usually corresponds to replacing the peanut port heads with something a little better flowing etc.

I think that the rotating assembly has enough mass to keep the engine idling, even without a flywheel/flexplate, if you had a way to start it.  Might have to idle it up a bit.

When my friends used to build boats back in the 80s, they ran 100# flywheels to further drop the idle RPM to exaggerate the blower surge.  I think that made the engine lazy.  His 23% overdriven 8-71 blown & injected 509 was way more badass than mine, but his didn't have the super touchy throttle response mine has.  I kept telling him, "lighten that flywheel" to which his reply was always, "make more power!"  Maybe it would make a noticeable difference here, maybe not.  But I agree, in the average 7.9:1 compression cement mixer jet boat, it will make no difference.  Maybe if a loader is installed.
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MorePower

  • Karma: +20/-0
Re: Flexplate vs Flywheel
« Reply #27 on: August 31, 2015, 03:01:57 PM »

Revved a lot faster in the water, or on the trailer?

GT

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On the trailer of course!!!! That's all that mattered for me lol


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JARVIS

  • Karma: +18/-0
Re: Flexplate vs Flywheel
« Reply #28 on: August 31, 2015, 04:26:45 PM »


I don't always prefer fast revving for the olds, but when I do... I prefer Dos Equis


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jimpen

  • Karma: +68/-0
Re: Flexplate vs Flywheel
« Reply #29 on: August 31, 2015, 06:41:57 PM »

Here's my personal theory.

Anything that is going to run more than an hour at a cruise, or idle for 20 minutes at a shot,  should have a flywheel.

Anything that idles for only a few minutes and runs wot for short stints can get away with a flexplate.

A flywheel is easier on parts.

A flywheel has fewer starter issues.

A flywheel runs smoother and can idle lower with big Cams.

GT
. I have no idea what GT is talking about here. Most the time I agree with him. Lol


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GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Flexplate vs Flywheel
« Reply #30 on: August 31, 2015, 07:22:52 PM »
. I have no idea what GT is talking about here. Most the time I agree with him. Lol


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What part loses you?

Happy to explain any of it, hell, all of it.
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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Ray

jimpen

  • Karma: +68/-0
Re: Flexplate vs Flywheel
« Reply #31 on: August 31, 2015, 07:33:01 PM »
GT I have a problem breaking teeth but I mostly understand it. Just having fun.


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SomeThingWilder

  • Karma: +4/-0
Re: Flexplate vs Flywheel
« Reply #32 on: August 31, 2015, 09:31:08 PM »
Thanks for letting me pick the experts brains. I have a mild 468 bbc about 470ish HP . My engine builder recommend a flexplate. But after talking to Sonny Bryant from Bryant Racing he questioned why I would run a flex and not a fly and all I could say was that's what my engine builder put on. 
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Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: Flexplate vs Flywheel
« Reply #33 on: August 31, 2015, 10:24:15 PM »
Thanks for letting me pick the experts brains. I have a mild 468 bbc about 470ish HP . My engine builder recommend a flexplate. But after talking to Sonny Bryant from Bryant Racing he questioned why I would run a flex and not a fly and all I could say was that's what my engine builder put on.

Why does Sonny recommend a flywheel?
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SomeThingWilder

  • Karma: +4/-0
Re: Flexplate vs Flywheel
« Reply #34 on: September 01, 2015, 05:08:38 AM »
Why does Sonny recommend a flywheel?
he didn't actually recommend one he was just asking me why not a flywheel. He did explain that back when he was racing, flexplate did exactly what their names says. At high rpm without the torque converter in place they can become wobbly.  But he said flexplate back then are probably a lot different the Now.
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jimpen

  • Karma: +68/-0
Re: Flexplate vs Flywheel
« Reply #35 on: September 01, 2015, 05:35:59 AM »

he didn't actually recommend one he was just asking me why not a flywheel. He did explain that back when he was racing, flexplate did exactly what their names says. At high rpm without the torque converter in place they can become wobbly.  But he said flexplate back then are probably a lot different the Now.
. I have noticed that they do wobble not sure that hurts anything. But we can get Joe's opinion on the or GT's.


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GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Flexplate vs Flywheel
« Reply #36 on: September 01, 2015, 07:10:01 AM »
. I have noticed that they do wobble not sure that hurts anything. But we can get Joe's opinion on the or GT's.


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That's one of the reasons I don't like them for a recreational deal. That gyro action (IMHO) weakens the center and causes cracks.

The SFI rating on them is null and void without a torque converter bolted to them.

The torque converter bolts to the outer perimeter and there is a centering button going to the crank. No wobble.

Again,  I would use an aluminum flywheel minimum,  but I'm retarded.

GT

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« Last Edit: September 01, 2015, 07:33:57 AM by GT Jets »
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
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Ray

propless

  • Karma: +12/-0
Re: Flexplate vs Flywheel
« Reply #37 on: September 01, 2015, 03:06:56 PM »
I would pay ten bucks to see a back to back test on a jet from a full on flywheel to a flex with no other changes. I'm not convinced that it would make that much difference being an you ate already spinning 40+ pounds of crap in the pump.

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That's one of the reasons I don't like them for a recreational deal. That gyro action (IMHO) weakens the center and causes cracks.

The SFI rating on them is null and void without a torque converter bolted to them.

The torque converter bolts to the outer perimeter and there is a centering button going to the crank. No wobble.

Again,  I would use an aluminum flywheel minimum,  but I'm retarded.

GT

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 Hi GT, strange we actually agree on something without needing a ten page "debate" .  ::) But don't forget the TQ converter is also supported by the input shaft of the trans. I wouldn't want to be within 100 yards of one running with no trans to support it. I bet it would flex that plate like a wet noodle.

 

I ran down to George at McLeod and ordered a 60# flywheel.  Fortunately George talked me out of the 100# flywheel.

What I noticed, the engine revved A LOT slower, both free revving the engine and while accelerating the car.  It also limited the peak RPM that the engine would rev.  I couldn't believe it, all the work I had done to make it rev fast was gone!


 Where you thinking it "limited the peak RPM that the engine would rev" because the car went through the traps at a lower RPM ?

  With my own boat (V-drive). Running the flywheel it idled nice/smooth/quiet. Changed to a flexplate, idle was rougher and it caused a rattle from the V-drive.  Flywheel was easier on parts because it didn't try to rattle the drive.
 BTW, the engine turned the exact same max RPM with either one.  IMO you should see no noticeable difference in max RPM unless your so far past your HP peek that your HP curve is falling like a rock off a cliff.    Car would have had a slower trap speed and hence a lower RPM through the traps because it wasn't able to accelerate the added rotational mass as quickly, but eventually it would reach the same speed/RPM. 

 

 Flexplates or even flywheels have way less rotational mass using them in a boat than they do when used in a car.  In a car the flexplate would have a big heavy TQ converter (full of fluid) bolted to it, and the flywheel would have a big heavy pressure plate bolted to it.  Using either one without its bolt on parts results in way less rotational mass than in a car.  But you also have to add any part of the drive system that rotates with the engine when the drive/trans is in gear. That goes all the way back to the tires in a car.
 Lower rotational mass will allow the engine to gain RPM faster. But your already way lower than either would be in a car.  And with a jet, where it can flash to max RPM at any time regardless of boat speed the only difference would be is the time it takes the engine to rev from idle to max RPM.  A split second. Its not like the engine gains RPM slowly as it accelerates the boat, like it would in a car. Rotational mass determines how quick the engine can gain RPM, not how quick a jet boat can gain speed.

 Only comparable way to compare the benefits or reducing flywheel/flexplate weight/mass between a jet boat and a car would be to time how quick an automatic trans drag car can gain RPM on the line from idle to stall RPM.  At WOT the jet boat goes from idle to "stall RPM" and just stays there. Do you think changing flexplate weight would change stall RPM with an automatic trans ? The only benefit would be a very slightly reduced idle to stall RPM time. And at that time, the pump isn't properly loaded, so I doubt there would be any measurable difference in boat performance.

 I vote for flywheel.  Get the smoother idle and reduced abuse on the U-joints and pump shaft splines.
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GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Flexplate vs Flywheel
« Reply #38 on: September 01, 2015, 03:26:33 PM »
Hi GT, strange we actually agree on something without needing a ten page "debate" .  ::) But don't forget the TQ converter is also supported by the input shaft of the trans. I wouldn't want to be within 100 yards of one running with no trans to support it. I bet it would flex that plate like a wet noodle.

Possibly, but I would think it would be limited simply because of the crank button. I guess ultimately it would depend on the balance of the torque converter and the gyro action of the fluids inside it. It will want to be locked into its rotational circle and really not want to move. Like a motorcycle wheel.

 
 
Quote
Where you thinking it "limited the peak RPM that the engine would rev" because the car went through the traps at a lower RPM ?

  With my own boat (V-drive). Running the flywheel it idled nice/smooth/quiet. Changed to a flexplate, idle was rougher and it caused a rattle from the V-drive.  Flywheel was easier on parts because it didn't try to rattle the drive.
 BTW, the engine turned the exact same max RPM with either one.  IMO you should see no noticeable difference in max RPM unless your so far past your HP peek that your HP curve is falling like a rock off a cliff.    Car would have had a slower trap speed and hence a lower RPM through the traps because it wasn't able to accelerate the added rotational mass as quickly, but eventually it would reach the same speed/RPM. 

 

 Flexplates or even flywheels have way less rotational mass using them in a boat than they do when used in a car.  In a car the flexplate would have a big heavy TQ converter (full of fluid) bolted to it, and the flywheel would have a big heavy pressure plate bolted to it.  Using either one without its bolt on parts results in way less rotational mass than in a car.  But you also have to add any part of the drive system that rotates with the engine when the drive/trans is in gear. That goes all the way back to the tires in a car.
 Lower rotational mass will allow the engine to gain RPM faster. But your already way lower than either would be in a car.  And with a jet, where it can flash to max RPM at any time regardless of boat speed the only difference would be is the time it takes the engine to rev from idle to max RPM.  A split second. Its not like the engine gains RPM slowly as it accelerates the boat, like it would in a car. Rotational mass determines how quick the engine can gain RPM, not how quick a jet boat can gain speed.

 Only comparable way to compare the benefits or reducing flywheel/flexplate weight/mass between a jet boat and a car would be to time how quick an automatic trans drag car can gain RPM on the line from idle to stall RPM.  At WOT the jet boat goes from idle to "stall RPM" and just stays there. Do you think changing flexplate weight would change stall RPM with an automatic trans ? The only benefit would be a very slightly reduced idle to stall RPM time. And at that time, the pump isn't properly loaded, so I doubt there would be any measurable difference in boat performance.

 I vote for flywheel.  Get the smoother idle and reduced abuse on the U-joints and pump shaft splines.

Ooooooh, now you done it... :o

I have to agree. But would like to add, the horsepower draw on a jet pump until about 4,000 rpm is squat. So the abundance of excess hp could prove our theory even further. It would give the engine something to push against keeping absolute vacuum level more stable during acceleration. Just a silly thought. Would love to have time to play with it.

GT
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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Ray

propless

  • Karma: +12/-0
Re: Flexplate vs Flywheel
« Reply #39 on: September 01, 2015, 08:11:48 PM »
Possibly, but I would think it would be limited simply because of the crank button. I guess ultimately it would depend on the balance of the torque converter and the gyro action of the fluids inside it. It will want to be locked into its rotational circle and really not want to move. Like a motorcycle wheel.

 
 
Ooooooh, now you done it... :o

I have to agree. But would like to add, the horsepower draw on a jet pump until about 4,000 rpm is squat. So the abundance of excess hp could prove our theory even further. It would give the engine something to push against keeping absolute vacuum level more stable during acceleration. Just a silly thought. Would love to have time to play with it.

GT

 OK, here we go. LOL

 That little button on the TQ converter isn't going to do squat to keep it from flexing the plate and wobbling around. Its the rear support from the trans that keeps it all in line. Its not like the TQ converter has a 6" long precision shaft that slips into the crank. Grab a TQ converter and put it on the end of a crank, it will wobble around.  The TQ converter is basically an extension of the transition input shaft as far as this is concerned. The TQ converter slips into the crank and bolts to the flexplate to center that end the same way a manual trans shaft slips into the pilot bushing.  Support from both sides.  That keeps the TQ converter from wobbling around, and the TQ converter keeps the outer section of the flexplate from wobbling back and forth. IMO, The added weight/mass of the TQ converter (unsupported by the trans) would exaggerate the flex of the plate till it started throwing shrapnel like a box of hand grenades.  ::)   

 Your thoughts of a motorcycle wheel might actually apply here, but not like you think it does.   If you had a severely out of balance motorcycle wheel, them balanced it by adding weight to only one side of the rim, say the right side. Eventually at some RPM it would try to flex the rim and wobble just like a flexplate.  The imbalance of weight between the left and right sides of the rim will try to flex the rim in that spot to center the weight.
 Hmmm, maybe the cause of the wobble with an unsupported flexplate is just that its weight is not perfectly centered (front to back) over its mounting flange. This would get really bad with an external balance flexplate that has that huge weight on one side of the plate, and an internal balance might actually not flex/wobble much at all.   ???

 
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GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Flexplate vs Flywheel
« Reply #40 on: September 01, 2015, 08:27:20 PM »
OK, here we go. LOL

 That little button on the TQ converter isn't going to do squat to keep it from flexing the plate and wobbling around. Its the rear support from the trans that keeps it all in line. Its not like the TQ converter has a 6" long precision shaft that slips into the crank. Grab a TQ converter and put it on the end of a crank, it will wobble around.  The TQ converter is basically an extension of the transition input shaft as far as this is concerned. The TQ converter slips into the crank and bolts to the flexplate to center that end the same way a manual trans shaft slips into the pilot bushing.  Support from both sides.  That keeps the TQ converter from wobbling around, and the TQ converter keeps the outer section of the flexplate from wobbling back and forth. IMO, The added weight/mass of the TQ converter (unsupported by the trans) would exaggerate the flex of the plate till it started throwing shrapnel like a box of hand grenades.  ::)   

 Your thoughts of a motorcycle wheel might actually apply here, but not like you think it does.   If you had a severely out of balance motorcycle wheel, them balanced it by adding weight to only one side of the rim, say the right side. Eventually at some RPM it would try to flex the rim and wobble just like a flexplate.  The imbalance of weight between the left and right sides of the rim will try to flex the rim in that spot to center the weight.
 Hmmm, maybe the cause of the wobble with an unsupported flexplate is just that its weight is not perfectly centered (front to back) over its mounting flange. This would get really bad with an external balance flexplate that has that huge weight on one side of the plate, and an internal balance might actually not flex/wobble much at all.   ???

Meh, you may be correct. I was just thinking out loud.

GT
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SomeThingWilder

  • Karma: +4/-0
Re: Flexplate vs Flywheel
« Reply #41 on: September 01, 2015, 11:26:42 PM »
So who has a flywheel laying around they want to sell?
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aquaholic72

  • Karma: +54/-0
Re: Flexplate vs Flywheel
« Reply #42 on: September 02, 2015, 11:51:40 AM »
For what??

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SomeThingWilder

  • Karma: +4/-0
Re: Flexplate vs Flywheel
« Reply #43 on: September 02, 2015, 02:26:34 PM »
For what??

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