Post by: raysoncraft1 on September 04, 2016, 01:46:27 PM
Has anybody had a problem with low oil pressure due to a oil filter problem.
My Motor was Dyoned and had oil pressure.
Put motor in boat with my oil cooler and filter set up HP6A the big one BOB teague uses on his boats.
Had oil pressure to start and after an half hour of running my oil pressure would not go over 40 lbs.
Stopped running boat.
pulled oil filter cut opened filter was clean.
Checked oil pump
checked bearings
everything good
My motor guy at QMP says that he has had a problem with oil filter FRAM. You can see at almost 6000 rpm 40 lb. the speed was good right under 110 still had more.
Has anybody had a problem like this.
Post by: Flusher on September 04, 2016, 02:26:53 PM
Have you or your engine builder plugged the filter bypass? If no, unfiltered oil would bypass the plugged filter.
Do you have confidence in the accuracy of the gauge?
Any possibility of pump pickup issues? Restricted? Sucking air?
Windage?
Is it 40 PSI all the time?
Post by: raysoncraft1 on September 04, 2016, 03:18:25 PM
Was a running motor melted down pistons got new ones fresh rebuid.
AS i said on Dino motor had oil pressure on break in and the pulls.
took the oil filter they had on and put my adapter for my cooler and filter but it in boat
It had oil pressure to start
it would not go over 40lb
took motor apart EVERYTHING CHECKED OKAY.
Have pan back on going to put back in boat change the filter i have in there.
Post by: GT Jets on September 04, 2016, 03:44:36 PM
Oh, and Fram filters suck donkey nuts.
Post by: raysoncraft1 on September 04, 2016, 04:09:23 PM
pan- 14 quart
dooley pan
21 quart total with cooler and filter and lines
weight oil 50
Post by: GT Jets on September 04, 2016, 04:37:26 PM
oil temp -to bearings 150
pan- 14 quart
dooley pan
21 quart total with cooler and filter and lines
weight oil 50
Oil temp should exceed 200°F and I think you have too much oil. JMO
I would drop the level to where it barely touches the stick and try it again. If that works, cut the stick by that amount.
Also, might invest in a quart of Lucas Stabilizer.
GT
Post by: 427 wilder on September 04, 2016, 05:02:45 PM
Post by: Chad krieger on September 05, 2016, 11:39:16 AM
Post by: raysoncraft1 on September 05, 2016, 12:56:15 PM
They said everything looked good.
And as i said they said they have seen problems with filters causing low oil pressure.
Her is the filter i run i dont see how it could clog the ports are so big.
DO they make a Wix filter this size.
Post by: rivrrts429 on September 05, 2016, 01:02:10 PM
I don't think Teague is running the Fram's any longer. At least the last few builds I've seen didn't have them. I believe I saw silver colored filters which makes me think Amsoil.
I would switch to a Wix Racing, Baldwin, Mobil1 or K&N and see if you get the same results.
If nothing changes I would try adding less oil. Could be a foaming issue and your crank slinging the oil. If still no changes make sure you have adequate windage. What oil pan are you running?
Post by: raysoncraft1 on September 05, 2016, 01:16:33 PM
been running this set up for years. Dually 14 quart pan with windage tray
motor new from shop new pistons.
will call Teague marine Tuesday and see if they have had any problems with the fram filters.
since the filter is new
My motor all ways runs good if you have seen me run.
i will check with mechanical gauge
Post by: GT Jets on September 05, 2016, 01:42:35 PM
The Fram filters don't "plug up", they have been known to collapse internally and restrict flow, I don't think the HP filters ever had the issue.
GT
Post by: raysoncraft1 on September 05, 2016, 01:58:57 PM
14 quart pan
It holds 14 quarts been using this pan for over 20 years
(HOW MANY QUARTS YOU THINK IT HOLDS)
Dooley has the 10 quart pan and the 14 quart pan has kick out on the sides.
Post by: propless on September 05, 2016, 02:30:34 PM
They got the pan back on they said check my sending unit and change the oil filter. (I should of put a mechanical gauge on before i pulled the motor)
They said everything looked good.
And as i said they said they have seen problems with filters causing low oil pressure.
Her is the filter i run i dont see how it could clog the ports are so big.
DO they make a Wix filter this size.
Yes Wix makes a filter that size. They actually make two, #57003R and #51222R. NAPA Gold filters are the same filter through the NAPA brand and use the same part numbers (#57003R and #51222R), might be easier to find. Both of these are bypass filters just like the Fram you used. http://www.wixfilters.com/Speciality/Racing.aspx#cross (http://www.wixfilters.com/Speciality/Racing.aspx#cross)
The issue with the Fram is not the size of the holes. Its the filter element its self. The pleats of the filter will fold over and lay flat reducing its ability to flow any useful amount of oil. The HP6A Fram is a bypass filter so it shouldn't collapse the filter like it does with their non bypass filters, but it can drastically reduce the filters flow. The filters bypass opens with a 22 psi difference between incoming and outgoing oil at the filter. So if the filter plugged up or folded the pleats, and you where putting 60 psi of oil pressure to the filter, the bypass wouldn't open till your oil pressure back to the engine was down to 38 psi.
With a remote mounted bypass filter like these and the oil cooler you should not be using a block mounted bypass. The pressure loss from all that external plumbing can activate the block mounted bypass and the oil will bypass the filter and cooler. You do not want it bypassing the cooler, so no block mounted bypass.
And I kinda have to agree with GT and rivrrts429. "21 quart total with cooler and filter and lines" sounds like to much oil. I cant see a cooler, lines, and filter holding 7 quarts of oil.
Oh and GT, he stated his oil temp was 150 to the bearings, that would be after the cooler so no way to know if the oil is to cool or not.
Post by: GT Jets on September 05, 2016, 02:45:44 PM
Dooley enterprises
14 quart pan
It holds 14 quarts been using this pan for over 20 years
(HOW MANY QUARTS YOU THINK IT HOLDS)
Dooley has the 10 quart pan and the 14 quart pan has kick out on the sides.
I have the same exact pan, it runs 12 quarts, not a drop more. It has been run wide open throttle on a river jet for 38 miles about ten times. We cut 7/8" off the dipstick tube and ran it to the "Full" line. .
I also have a Dooley 10 quart with a custom tray, we run it low also. About a quart and a half.
I would check the actual oil temp at the pan. I'm not convinced the engine is set up right for the cooler, hopefully you used a high volume pump and no 90° fittings in the install of the cooler. Where are you taking the oil temp and the pressure? .
GT
Post by: GT Jets on September 05, 2016, 02:49:50 PM
Oh and GT, he stated his oil temp was 150 to the bearings, that would be after the cooler so no way to know if the oil is to cool or not.
After the cooler that could be experiencing reduced flow. Is that where you're going?
Agreed.
I just had eye surgery, so I probably didn't read that as thoroughly as I should have.
50 weight oil is 50 weight at 212°F, anything colder, oil be thicker. FYI.
Post by: raysoncraft1 on September 05, 2016, 03:57:06 PM
Been running this set up ever since i built the boat.
The shop called and said they put 5 quart of oil in it and it had 80 lbs with a primmer.
Just going to pick up the motor put it in the boat hook up a mechanical oil gauge and see what happens.
And i guess go to local lake and make some laps
Post by: GT Jets on September 05, 2016, 09:45:59 PM
the oil comes out of the block goes into the cooler than the filter i take the temp off the oil filter housing before it goes back to the block.
Been running this set up ever since i built the boat.
The shop called and said they put 5 quart of oil in it and it had 80 lbs with a primmer.
Just going to pick up the motor put it in the boat hook up a mechanical oil gauge and see what happens.
And i guess go to local lake and make some laps
Is there even the slightest chance the filter is plumbed backwards?
It was good talking with you brother.
8)
Post by: raysoncraft1 on September 05, 2016, 11:31:52 PM
This time and every time after that it has been right, Thanks for asking
Post by: propless on September 06, 2016, 01:08:44 AM
the oil comes out of the block goes into the cooler than the filter i take the temp off the oil filter housing before it goes back to the block.
Been running this set up ever since i built the boat.
The shop called and said they put 5 quart of oil in it and it had 80 lbs with a primmer.
Just going to pick up the motor put it in the boat hook up a mechanical oil gauge and see what happens.
And i guess go to local lake and make some laps
In my opinion, your plumbing is wrong. It should go from the block, to the filter, to the cooler, then back to the block. Here are few reasons to put the filter first.....
1. Its way easier to get 50wt oil through a filter when its still hot. By cooling the oil to 150 deg then sending it to the filter, its like trying to force gear oil through a paint strainer. You have a way higher chance of the filter going into bypass and sending unfiltered oil back to the engine when trying to filter cold oil.
2. Your temp sensor on the filter will give you more accurate idea of how hot your oil is actually getting.
3. With the filter first, at least it has a chance to keep anything bad out of the cooler.
After the cooler that could be experiencing reduced flow. Is that where you're going?
Agreed.
I just had eye surgery, so I probably didn't read that as thoroughly as I should have.
50 weight oil is 50 weight at 212°F, anything colder, oil be thicker. FYI.
Not really where I was going but a good point too. What I was getting at is with the temp being read after the cooler we have no idea how hot the oil is in the pan. Might actually be up to temp. Would all depend on how efficient to cooler is and how its plumbed (cold water or dump water).
I'm sure after reading how this thing is plumbed (out of block, cooler, filter, return to block) and 150 deg oil at the filter, you will agree he should not be trying to filter 150 deg 50 wt oil in any kind of volume. That cooler needs to be after the filter. High RPM/high oil flow volume and 150 deg 50 wt oil trying to go through a filter is not a good thing.
Post by: raysoncraft1 on September 06, 2016, 10:01:15 AM
if you go into the filter first and then the cooler if the cooler come apart for any reason the debris goes into the motor.
You dont want to no the temp in the pan its crazy hot i take readings right before the oil goes back to the block so you no the oil temp hitting the bearings
Post by: GT Jets on September 06, 2016, 10:54:51 AM
I disagree you want the oil going thru the filter last before the motor. So the filter can do its job.
if you go into the filter first and then the cooler if the cooler come apart for any reason the debris goes into the motor.
You dont want to no the temp in the pan its crazy hot i take readings right before the oil goes back to the block so you no the oil temp hitting the bearings
I disagree. Filter first, just like GM intended.
If the oil is cold it's super thick. You filter the hottest oil possible. The routing should be; filter, cooler, block.
The only way you can do it your way is to ditch the pleated filter and go to an Oberg screen.
If your cooler comes apart, you have much larger issues than a filter.
Add to the that, the pressure pulses will be tamed by the filter making life much easier on the cooler. It's the hydraulic signature of the oil pump that normally destroys the coolers.
Just my personal opinion, but I totally agree with propless on this one.
And if the oil is as hot as you indicate in the pan, that's an issue also, anything past 240°~250°F and you have a bubble bath. Drop the level in the pan an inch and tell me what happens. Seen it dozens of time myself.
Filter first and drop the level, I bet the drama stops.
Good catch proppy.
GT
Post by: GT Jets on September 06, 2016, 11:08:31 AM
When we do them, we use the dump water, this actually does two things, it's getting the oil up to temp quicker and keeps it more stable when balls out. We shoot for 200°F oil temp. We've done it this way on 9,000 rpm small blocks and twin turbo, 6,000rpm big blocks.
It's proven itself very effective.
The pan temp should never exceed 250°F. The oil temp differential should never exceed 30°F, that an easy way to make a frothy mess.
JMHO
GT
Post by: raysoncraft1 on September 06, 2016, 01:22:20 PM
Post by: GT Jets on September 06, 2016, 01:45:05 PM
I'm coming to you from an oil standpoint, we wouldn't be having this discussion if your system didn't have some issues, even if it's only a bad oil sending unit.
From an oil control standpoint, that diagram is irrelevent. Why? Simple, it uses a raw water pump that can move nowhere near the amount of water a jet pump can. Bob uses the cold oil temps to also aid in motor cooling. It's a weird way to go, but it works.
I'm not telling you I'm right, you're wrong, but rather what I would do vs. what you have done. I'm telling you right now, you will likely have better oil control if you went with what I have discussed.
180°F to 200°F to the bearings and filter first, it would at least prevent you from filling the cooler full of shit if the bottom end decided to take a vacation.
Let us know what the problem ends up being. Too often these types of things never get any closure.
Take care and have fun. Hope to see you at an event.
GT
Post by: rivrrts429 on September 06, 2016, 02:07:43 PM
I disagree you want the oil going thru the filter last before the motor. So the filter can do its job.
if you go into the filter first and then the cooler if the cooler come apart for any reason the debris goes into the motor.
You dont want to no the temp in the pan its crazy hot i take readings right before the oil goes back to the block so you no the oil temp hitting the bearings
What's a crazy hot temperature at the pan? I have my temp sensor bung welded at the pan. I've only seen 200*-205*, that seems optimum.
Post by: GT Jets on September 06, 2016, 02:12:07 PM
What's a crazy hot temperature at the pan? I have my temp sensor bung welded at the pan. I've only seen 200*-205*, that seems optimum.
That's right where the oil starts to do a great job, synthetic oil even warmer. Cold oil is "sticky" and does not lubricate as well as warm oil.
GT
Post by: propless on September 06, 2016, 02:15:13 PM
This is the way BOB at Teague does it.But would he recommend 150 deg 50 wt oil to the filter ? Probably not. If you want to do it that way, move your oil temp sender to the pan and restrict water to the cooler till you achiever proper oil temps in the pan.
I disagree you want the oil going thru the filter last before the motor. So the filter can do its job.
if you go into the filter first and then the cooler if the cooler come apart for any reason the debris goes into the motor.
You dont want to no the temp in the pan its crazy hot i take readings right before the oil goes back to the block so you no the oil temp hitting the bearings
On the very rare accession that GT and I actually agree on something, you should pay attention. And oil cooling/filtering is one of the areas we usually agree. Standard style pleated filters will not filter 150 deg 50 wt oil at any useful volume. It will fold the pleats, crush the filter material, or open the bypass. Changing to a good filter (no Fram) might help a bit, but even the Wix racing filters I gave you numbers for wont filter that oil at that temp in a useful volume, the bypass will open.
And Yes, I do want to know the oil temp in the pan. Because that tells me how hot that oil has gotten going through the engine. Has it gotten hot enough to come up to temp ? Has it been overheated going through the engine ? You have no idea. I don't really care what the oil temp going into the engine is (within reason), whats important is how hot that oil is getting, you need you know its highest temp not its lowest temp. Would you look at water temp going to an engine ? No, you look at how hot the engine is heating it.
But its your boat and your engine.
GT, I really doubt he has 250 deg oil in the pan, at least I hope not. Can you imagine what must be going on in that engine if he can heat the oil from 150 deg going into it, to 250 deg by the time it reaches the pan ? My guess would be right around 200 in the pan if hes using cold water to the cooler. But that's just a guess.
Post by: propless on September 06, 2016, 02:24:12 PM
I would still restrict water to the cooler and move the filter. In My Opinion I would like to see a bit more than 205 deg in the pan. Get it up to around 215/220 ish.
Post by: GT Jets on September 06, 2016, 02:26:53 PM
GT, I really doubt he has 250 deg oil in the pan, at least I hope not. Can you imagine what must be going on in that engine if he can heat the oil from 150 deg going into it, to 250 deg by the time it reaches the pan ? My guess would be right around 200 in the pan if hes using cold water to the cooler. But that's just a guess.
That is what I'm saying too, I think the oil is overcooled. Get it up to 200°F and it's a party.
Scary that we are on the same mindset.
You must be finally coming around to my way of thinking.
:o
GT
Post by: GT Jets on September 06, 2016, 02:28:14 PM
Didn't see the last two posts when I hit send.
I would still restrict water to the cooler and move the filter. In My Opinion I would like to see a bit more than 205 deg in the pan. Get it up to around 215/220 ish.
That's a different boat altogether.
Post by: rivrrts429 on September 06, 2016, 02:31:18 PM
That's right where the oil starts to do a great job, synthetic oil even warmer. Cold oil is "sticky" and does not lubricate as well as warm oil.
GT
That's what I've always figured. I run Mobil 1 synthetic with no oil cooler, 14 qt Dan Olson pan and remote oil filter.
I can run 10 miles pretty hard and it stays consistently in that temp range. I'm running a blown/intercooled 509" making 1,050 hp.
I'd like to see a few degrees more but it just doesn't get there unless I'm really legging the hell out of it and even then it cools rather quickly.
I hope the OP gets it figured out and I tend to agree that he'll find it at the gauge or the filter. I've seen big name motor builders plum the system both ways but they're usually designed differently for open and closed loop as well as motors running a thermostat. Hope he sticks with it and keeps us posted on what it was.
Post by: rivrrts429 on September 06, 2016, 02:34:49 PM
Really appreciate the knowledge GT & Propless are posting up. Couldn't pay for this kind of candor. Good stuff gentleman.
Post by: GT Jets on September 06, 2016, 02:36:48 PM
That's what I've always figured. I run Mobil 1 synthetic with no oil cooler, 14 qt Dan Olson pan and remote oil filter.
I can run 10 miles pretty hard and it stays consistently in that temp range. I'm running a blown/intercooled 509" making 1,050 hp.
I'd like to see a few degrees more but it just doesn't get there unless I'm really legging the hell out of it and even then it cools rather quickly.
I hope the OP gets it figured out and I tend to agree that he'll find it at the gauge or the filter. I've seen big name motor builders plum the system both ways but they're usually designed differently for open and closed loop as well as motors running a thermostat. Hope he sticks with it and keeps us posted on what it was.
You could always throttle the water back a bit and keep more heat in the heads. What leaving water temp do you see?
Post by: propless on September 06, 2016, 03:02:15 PM
Scary that we are on the same mindset.
You must be finally coming around to my way of thinking.
:o
GT
Coming around to your way of thinking ? :o No, its just the RIGHT way of thinking ! ;)
That's a different boat altogether.
Ooops. Sorry rivrrts429.
Your temps are awesome with no cooler, considering its a blown deal and running hard for 10 miles, your doing something right ! Most people WISH they had the problem of trying to get a bit more oil temp without a cooler.
Step that thing up a bit, pull some fuel, throw some timing at it, let it build some heat. >:D
Post by: rivrrts429 on September 06, 2016, 03:30:29 PM
You could always throttle the water back a bit and keep more heat in the heads. What leaving water temp do you see?
I think it runs somewhere around 135ish. I'll have to look at the gauge to remember where I see the needle. It will jump up to 180 pretty quick just idling around for extended periods.
It still takes a bit to build exit water temp so I focus on the oil more than water.
Your temps are awesome with no cooler, considering its a blown deal and running hard for 10 miles, your doing something right ! Most people WISH they had the problem of trying to get a bit more oil temp without a cooler.
Step that thing up a bit, pull some fuel, throw some timing at it, let it build some heat. >:D
I've talked to my motor builder about it and we're probably going to change a few things in the off season. It's still a relatively new refresh but everything is mimicking the previous build that had over 100 hours trouble free.
Post by: GT Jets on September 06, 2016, 03:51:56 PM
I think it runs somewhere around 135ish. I'll have to look at the gauge to remember where I see the needle. It will jump up to 180 pretty quick just idling around for extended periods.
It still takes a bit to build exit water temp so I focus on the oil more than water.
Sounds like your are running a ball valve and not a gate on the pump water.
GT
Post by: rivrrts429 on September 06, 2016, 04:02:24 PM
Sounds like your are running a ball valve and not a gate on the pump water.
GT
I've lurked around here enough to know that you're not going to like what setup I'm running, GT lol
No valves just a pressure relief.
Post by: GT Jets on September 06, 2016, 04:09:41 PM
I've lurked around here enough to know that you're not going to like what setup I'm running, GT lol
No valves just a pressure relief.
Lol.
Yep, figures. Swap that $100 pile of shit for a $16 gate valve, boom, Bob's your uncle.
Lol
Post by: rivrrts429 on September 06, 2016, 04:21:11 PM
Lol.
Yep, figures. Swap that $100 pile of shit for a $16 gate valve, boom, Bob's your uncle.
Lol
Lol. It's already happening. I laughed a bit when I posted since I knew what your response would be.
Shouldn't we be talking about oil coolers and Fram oil filters LMAO
Post by: GT Jets on September 06, 2016, 05:24:00 PM
Shouldn't we be talking about oil coolers and Fram oil filters LMAO
No, we pretty much already beat that topic into the dirt. Lol
GT
Post by: Cliffjumper on September 06, 2016, 06:06:07 PM
Post by: GT Jets on September 06, 2016, 06:26:38 PM
Post by: propless on September 06, 2016, 07:17:19 PM
Fram has some silver colored filters
Painting a POS filter a different color doesn't make it useful. ;)
Post by: GT Jets on September 06, 2016, 07:40:11 PM
Painting a POS filter a different color doesn't make it useful. ;)
Crap. It don't?
I was going to have one chromed..... :sly:
Post by: propless on September 06, 2016, 08:12:23 PM
Crap. It don't?
I was going to have one chromed..... :sly:
Now you well know, you only use chrome filters when you run diesel motor oil, or own a Harley. :-X
Post by: GT Jets on September 06, 2016, 08:38:20 PM
Now you well know, you only use chrome filters when you run diesel motor oil, or own a Harley. :-X
DOH!
Post by: GT Jets on September 07, 2016, 06:48:57 AM
GT
Post by: raysoncraft1 on September 07, 2016, 09:05:41 AM
was at teague yesterday they said they never had a problem with a HP6A
they carry wix as well
pick up new sending unit
picked up motor and put it in the boat all ready should have a answer soon
Post by: GT Jets on September 07, 2016, 01:18:25 PM
no cut it open
was at teague yesterday they said they never had a problem with a HP6A
they carry wix as well
pick up new sending unit
picked up motor and put it in the boat all ready should have a answer soon
Can't wait.
GT
Post by: raysoncraft1 on September 16, 2016, 03:40:56 PM
Got new sending unit.
installed mechanical oil pressure gauge as well just to check.