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jet fever

  • Karma: +7/-2
Re: Gate Valve Off Pump Inlet?
« Reply #50 on: May 31, 2015, 03:03:04 PM »
I would like to state the Jetfever is in no way affiliated nor does not endorse this thread....   and ladies bikini tops are not optional - Like Tpain said TAKE YOUR MOTHAwoopin shirt off.

I am not sure why this is always a debate. 

Its easy on the wallet to try the gate.

It did not keep oil and excess pressure out of my block I had to use a regulator to keep pressure down on my boat.  I also only drive in lakes not sandy rivers. It was worth the money in my setup.  We all have a preference we swear by but this kept water out of my oil.

I think we all should listen to everyones advice and experiences choose what works for us collectively and not beat each other up over any of it.  Afterall that is one of the reasons we are all on here right.

 :beer: 
  • Boat #1: 76 Hallett Bubble Deck
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Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: Gate Valve Off Pump Inlet?
« Reply #51 on: May 31, 2015, 03:12:04 PM »
I think we all should listen to everyones advice and experiences choose what works for us collectively and not beat each other up over any of it.  Afterall that is one of the reasons we are all on here right.

 :beer:

Well said!
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"I want to roll with my brother Joe" - Joe Bateman - January 29, 1950 ~ November 27, 2013

74hondo

  • Karma: +8/-0
Re: Gate Valve Off Pump Inlet?
« Reply #52 on: May 31, 2015, 03:25:53 PM »

Well said!

X2


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GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Gate Valve Off Pump Inlet?
« Reply #53 on: May 31, 2015, 04:08:18 PM »
I think he means that you are most likely not going to connect and monitor a flowmeter.

Pressure is the result of resistance to flow and would be measured in Pounds per Square Inch (PSI)

Flow is stated in units of volume over time.  Depending on the flow rate, could be Gallons Per Minute (GPM) or Gallons Per Hour (GPH).

You can have pressure with no flow, but for flow to occur, a pressure differential must exist.  Flow is always from an area of high pressure to an area of low pressure.

Not trying to stir the pot here, but, in an open loop cooling system; if a pressure gauge is installed at various points in the system, starting in the jet pump bowl, then in the cooling line just as it exits the pump, again in the cooling line as it enters the engine at the water pump bosses, in the drain plug, in each of the core plugs in the block, in both of the core plugs in the head, at both ends of the intake manifold, in the thermostat housing, in the hose just as the water exists the engine, and lastly just before the water dumps over the side; (little long winded there) you would observe that each gauge indicates a pressure drop.  The bowl would have the highest pressure and just as the water dumps over the side, it would be at 0PSIG. This is because of fluid friction.  Every hose and fitting is a restriction as are all of the passages in the block, heads, and manifolds.  The surface finish of the inside of the engine, hoses, etc. adds to this fluid friction.  The shape of the entry/exit of each of the fittings, be it squared with just a drilled hole, chamfered, or fully-radiused.  Are the fittings 45 or 90-degrees?  Drilled or smooth bends?

The question becomes, where is the correct location to take a reading?  If in the thermostat housing, everything up to that point is going to be higher pressure than what the gauge indicates.  Right before the water enters the engine would be the safest, at least the water pressure beyond that point will be less.

Cheers,

Joe

Whilst I totally agree.

The actual readable pressure differences within the block (from the water pump adapter fittings to the thermostat housing) will be so small, an analog gauge will not be adequate to see them.

Obviously this is if the smallest port is the actual dump fitting (normally is).

Actual control of the water flow (as it pertains to temperature) and pressure (as it pertains to rpm) can be done literally dozens of ways. I always shoot for something as close as possible to what you have now. There is no reason to completely reinvent the wheel. IMO.

GT
« Last Edit: May 31, 2015, 04:46:59 PM by GT Jets »
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

TIMINATOR

  • Karma: +5/-0
Re: Gate Valve Off Pump Inlet?
« Reply #54 on: May 31, 2015, 08:05:36 PM »
You don't need a flowmeter, install the gauge at the inlet to the head, perpendicular to the inlet flow (to get an accurate reading use a standard "T", the inlet from the pump goes in the side of the fitting, the gauge in one end, and the block at the other end), then read and record the inlet pressure at idle, at say: 2000RPM, 3000 RPM, 4000 RPM, and every 1000 RPM to max RPM while running down the lake. Then while at home, install a garden hose to the inlet hose after you remove it from the pump. Now set the garden hose pressure to the idle pressure, and run the DUMP water onto the ground, run the hose at that pressure to fill the engine and when water is flowing freely out of the dump line, then put the bucket under the dump fitting,  and run the hose for one minute and remove the bucket, read the amount of water in the bucket, and this is how many gallons per minute the flow is at idle. Empty the bucket and repeat at every 1000 RPM and record all of this info. You will now KNOW the ACTUAL gallons per minute of cooling water that is going thru the engine. No guessing here! Then let the engine empty itself of water, some take longer than others, (the boat must lean back on the trailer at the angle that it sits in the water/lake), turn on the water at the full RPM pressure the motor can run and time the length of time until the water is FULLY FLOWING from the dump line. This is how long it takes to fill the system from sitting empty in the lake, to full throttle with full cooling. If that doesn't bother you, do the same at say idle and 3000 RPM. The first dozen times we did all of this (about 30+ years ago,) we were surprised, and that's why we don't restrict the inlet. Yes, I'm anal about everything, so I don't have to guess.  You don't have to believe me about anything, try this yourself.   TIMINATOR
« Last Edit: May 31, 2015, 08:24:05 PM by TIMINATOR »
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TUFENUF MARINE PERFORMANCE  623-877-8553
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JET PUMPS!!!
PM or call me with JETTECH questions for HOTBOAT MAGAZINE!!  see them in the magazine!! OOPS! not anymore! HOTBOAT is boobs up! MODESTY IS A CRUTCH FOR THE INCOMPETENT!

GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Gate Valve Off Pump Inlet?
« Reply #55 on: May 31, 2015, 08:34:44 PM »
I broke this up so it would be easier to decipher..  ;)


You don't need a flowmeter, install the gauge at the inlet to the head, perpendicular to the inlet flow (to get an accurate reading use a standard "T", the inlet from the pump goes in the side of the fitting, the gauge in one end, and the block at the other end), then read and record the inlet pressure at idle, at say: 2000RPM, 3000 RPM, 4000 RPM, and every 1000 RPM to max RPM while running down the lake.

Agreed. Good method. I do have a flow meter that I have used in the past..... If anyone wants to borrow it, hit me up. They're super simple and super cheap. I also have an ultrasonic flow meter but the turbulence messes with the readings.

Then while at home, install a garden hose to the inlet hose after you remove it from the pump. Now set the garden hose pressure to the idle pressure, and run the DUMP water onto the ground, run the hose at that pressure to fill the engine and when water is flowing freely out of the dump line, then put the bucket under the dump fitting,  and run the hose for one minute and remove the bucket, read the amount of water in the bucket, and this is how many gallons per minute the flow is at idle.

Here is where I have a slight issue, maybe not enough to negate what your saying but who knows...

The garden hose deal is a constant column of bubble free water, not the foamy bubbly crap from a jet pump spinning 5,500 RPM. The flow coefficient is all fuckered up.

Empty the bucket and repeat at every 1000 RPM and record all of this info. You will now KNOW the ACTUAL gallons per minute of cooling water that is going thru the engine. No guessing here!

What does the RPM have to do with the engine being on a hose? I assume you meant pressure. Not RPM?


Then let the engine empty itself of water, some take longer than others, (the boat must lean back on the trailer at the angle that it sits in the water/lake), turn on the water at the full RPM pressure the motor can run and time the length of time until the water is FULLY FLOWING from the dump line. This is how long it takes to fill the system from sitting empty in the lake, to full throttle full cooling.

How does the engine empty itself of water in the lake? I still don't get it... Maybe I'm a tard...  :P

The first dozen times we did all of this (about 30+ years ago,) we were surprised, and that's why we don't restrict the inlet. Yes, I'm anal about everything, so I don't have to guess.  You don't have to believe me about anything, try this yourself.   TIMINATOR

I can tell you this for fact. The small block Chevy we just took to Nacemiento a few months ago took longer to fill the droop than it did the engine. Literally two seconds after the engine drew down once the impeller started pumping, the dump line started peeing like it had been drinking Coors Light for a week...

I feel your method may be flawed,  I will have to try this and play around with it...


The air has almost no restriction as compared to the water. Not poking, just trying to understand where all this is coming from.


Man, can we beat a subject to a pulsless death or what?     ???


GT
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

TIMINATOR

  • Karma: +5/-0
Re: Gate Valve Off Pump Inlet?
« Reply #56 on: June 01, 2015, 08:52:22 AM »
By knowing the pressure at the various RPMs, you can figure the Gallons per minute flow at THAT RPM, and that changes with RPM/pump pressure.
Why does the engine block drain while sitting in the lake? Gravity. Water always seeks its own level.
The water jacket of the heads and almost always the entire engine block is above the level of the water outside the boat.
Water seeks its own level. The water in the engine will drain down to the level of the water outside, usually emptying most of the block, and all of the heads.
Before I moved to Phoenix, in the 1970s, we had a customer that didn't like the time that it took to refill the engine when started. So he added a check valve in the pressure line from the pump. He had almost immediate water flow upon start up, and I figured he had stumbled onto a good idea. I wondered why the boat companies didn't incorporate this feature. We got our answer next spring when the first time in the water he discovered that the block was cracked in several places on both sides in the lower water jacket area and the freeze plugs were severely corroded. It freezes back East. Lake water also contains no antifreeze/corrosion protection, so steel freeze plugs and iron blocks, and heads, whether iron or aluminum will  be corroded with water standing in it all winter.         
Water drains from the engine back into the pump, into the bowl, and out to the lake thru the impeller and suction housing.
Don't believe that? Remove the pump feed line to the engine and connect a garden hose to the pump itself, when you see water running from the pump you will be convinced.
It may take 3 or 4 minutes to drain the engine, but how long were you sitting in the lake putting out a skier, or B.S.ing about whose boat is faster before the time you actually raced? The heads empty first because they on top of the engine, but they are the hottest part of the engine and need the most cooling water, just sayin'.
When you put the boat on the trailer and take it out of the lake, did you ever notice how long it takes for the water to stop running out of the pump inlet? That's because the block and heads are emptying thru it. It takes just as long in the lake, but it does happen.
I did not expect this issue to become an encyclopedia, I thought everyone would have grasped these concepts much sooner, but since not everybody did, it just took a bit more explaining.   TIMINATOR
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TUFENUF MARINE PERFORMANCE  623-877-8553
COMPLETE ENGINE MACHINESHOP & PERFORMANCE
JET PUMPS!!!
PM or call me with JETTECH questions for HOTBOAT MAGAZINE!!  see them in the magazine!! OOPS! not anymore! HOTBOAT is boobs up! MODESTY IS A CRUTCH FOR THE INCOMPETENT!

 


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