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DOZZR

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Gear drive question
« on: February 01, 2008, 09:10:27 AM »
When I put my olds motor together the first time, I put gear drives in it, after a couple of months and alot of noise later I took them out. When I was removing them I noticed that the idler pins were actually wedged between the front cover and the block. upon removal of the gears, I could actually saw an indentation where the shafts were touching both the front cover and block (shiny indentations). This would explain the excessive niose I am getting throughout the motor in a telescoping matter.
Here is my question, could I or rather should I shave the pins down say 1/16-1/8 and have the pins actually float in the housed area, or do they need the "wedged" support to keep the assembly in line? I also was thinking about fastening a soft pad (front and rear) from a timing chain tensioner. But from the pic it looks like one side has a little play and the other is tight.  here is a pic, maybe it will help.
My thought was that by being wedged in there it was placing pressure on one side of the drive while allowing the other side to have play in it, and not allowing the idlers to "Idle" or float. By being wedged in position, I am thinking there is alot of extra friction/noise on the assembly simply because the pins aren't housed into a specific position, but rather forced to the lowest point in the block casting . I really am not sure , and rather than just hurt the motor I took them out until I KNOW for sure. Any input would be helpful,
thanks,
 John
« Last Edit: February 01, 2008, 09:13:19 AM by DOZZR »
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GAWnCA

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Re: Gear drive question
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2008, 09:30:07 AM »
Dozzr,  I've never seen one of these set ups before so I really can't help with your questions but I do metal gears running on metal gars will make a lot more noise than if you were running the timing chain.   This is one of the reason they went to fiber gears, to quiet down even the timing chain noise.  I never heard it but I guess some engineer came up with this idea and they bought into it.  They also wear out faster.  Where did you get this setup.  WHen you have gear wear how it that adjusted for?
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hotrod56cars

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Re: Gear drive question
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2008, 09:51:09 AM »
I had a gear drive in my last engine, a BBC, and the gear drive was a little different than yours (didn't have the buttons on each idler). But the one gear being looser than the other, that was the same on my engine, if the engine turned the opposite direction then the other gear would be looser. That part of it is just the nature of the beast. BBC's have a cam button riding on the center of the cam's gear and the sheetmetal timing chain cover. It seems odd that the shafts that the idler gear's ride on turns with the gears, but maybe they're supposed to. The idler gears with my set-up just stayed in place with no retaining "devices". Curious, who made the gear drive for your Olds?

I liked the fact that the timing marks didn't float around at all when I timed my engine (gear drive and no advance mechanism's in the distributor).
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DOZZR

  • Karma: +2/-0
Re: Gear drive question
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2008, 09:59:23 AM »
They dont wear out like timing chains will and if they do I would imagine all the metal worn off would destroy the bearing long before the cam timing would be an issue. They are supposed to be noisy (like a power steering pump low on fluid, but in a cool way  ;D) The gears are really thick and non adjustable, the plus is, they will far outlast any timing chain. and keep the proper cam timing much longer. I really liked having them in, I got alot of response from the whine they produce, but it was actually too loud and thats why I decided to take them out until I could find out for sure, I want the noise/whine but these were so loud that I couldnt hear if the engine was making any other noises, and I am pretty sure that the idlers being wedged in place caused MOST of the noise.....I hope
John
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hotrod56cars

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Re: Gear drive question
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2008, 10:18:08 AM »
I had so much "whine" and header noise that I couldn't hear detonation and I melted a forged piston.  :P
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NO REGRET$ ... Arguing on the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics / no matter how good you do you're still retarded!!!!!

                                                          1978  19' Mach 1 Tunnel jet

speedymopars

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Re: Gear drive question
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2008, 10:21:00 AM »
On the front cover - are you running a gasket or silicon? On many items, they are designed with the gasket thickness in mind, it could be creating more force that intended on the idler. Also, gear noise usually comes from lack of oil and the wear pattern that develops. A Olds don't have the best oiling to begin with, it's possible the gear drive will always be noisy no matter what you do. I know some companies make a dual idler (Pete Jackson), that you can get in two flavors - noisy and really noisy. If yours is one of them, that may be the way it was machined.

My gear drive is silent (Miliodon) and you can't even hear it the slightst bit.
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21' 74 cheyenne 543 Mopar Berkeley Jet Place diverter

DOZZR

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Re: Gear drive question
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2008, 11:07:12 PM »
I dont remember right off hand what brand it is, I knew they would make noise quiet or noisy, so I got the quiet ones and I do have a gasket that I coat lightly with black rtv. It left a pretty good indent where the ends of the pins hit, so I am going to check into some kind of (teflon or hard rubber) to put into the ends after shaving them down. If that dont work I see how many hops I can get out of them skipping across the lake  ;D
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hotrod56cars

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Re: Gear drive question
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2008, 11:10:56 PM »
Can the idlers turn without turning the shafts to which they are mounted on?
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NO REGRET$ ... Arguing on the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics / no matter how good you do you're still retarded!!!!!

                                                          1978  19' Mach 1 Tunnel jet

speedymopars

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Re: Gear drive question
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2008, 07:18:34 AM »
I dont remember right off hand what brand it is, I knew they would make noise quiet or noisy, so I got the quiet ones and I do have a gasket that I coat lightly with black rtv. It left a pretty good indent where the ends of the pins hit, so I am going to check into some kind of (teflon or hard rubber) to put into the ends after shaving them down. If that dont work I see how many hops I can get out of them skipping across the lake  ;D

Rubber - I wouldn't do that. The rubber will wear, and you will have that in your oil. HR56 asked a good question - if the gears are not solidly mounted to the shaft then you may want that press fit to keep them in place. If it is excessively tight, just cutting to clearance may be the way to go.

BTW pete jacksons are really loud - even the quiet version. An old trick is to put a nitrous direct port nozzle right at the gear (the old style with only one opening, not the mix style fogger) and plumb it for oil. This will drench the gear in oil and keep it silent.  On bb mopar's this is done easily through the fuel pump boss - you would have to figure out how to do it on an olds.
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Jetaholic

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Re: Gear drive question
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2008, 07:28:51 AM »
They are supposed to be noisy (like a power steering pump low on fluid, but in a cool way  ;D)

Gear drive = poor man's blower ;D
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To err is human, to forgive divine...except for running Fords ;D

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hotrod56cars

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Re: Gear drive question
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2008, 11:08:58 AM »
... An old trick is to put a nitrous direct port nozzle right at the gear (the old style with only one opening, not the mix style fogger) and plumb it for oil. This will drench the gear in oil and keep it silent.  On bb mopar's this is done easily through the fuel pump boss - you would have to figure out how to do it on an olds.

What a sik idea! That should be pretty easy to do on the Olds through that thick sheet metal timing gear cover.
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NO REGRET$ ... Arguing on the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics / no matter how good you do you're still retarded!!!!!

                                                          1978  19' Mach 1 Tunnel jet

DOZZR

  • Karma: +2/-0
Re: Gear drive question
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2008, 12:23:48 PM »
Thanks for the ideas, I don't really like the "rubber" idea but my thought was directed towards a timing chain tensioner, the rubber on the contact area of the pad. but holding it in place is risky. I think I will just shave off enough to relieve some of the pressure the front cover is applying and go from there.
There is a plug that has a small hole in it feeding oil to the chain, I think it just squirts straight out and hits the back of the big gear directly, then it is slung off the gear, I am pulling the motor tonight, I will take some pics and see if plumbing of of that might be a plausable solution. I know its more trouble than its worth, but they just sound so dam cool.
Jetaholic, all that wisdom you post and you reply with that.....sigh.... I am so disappointed, lol J/K, poor and oldsmobile only go hand in hand when the motor is finished, other than that I can't justify associating anything with olds parts and poor  ;D
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