SoCal Jet Boats
Tech Talk => Engine Mechanical / Electrical => Topic started by: Stevecat on April 11, 2009, 05:41:56 PM
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After 3+ seasons of absolutely NO motor issues my luck finally ran out. Thurs eve I'm out on the river for my final check of new PD and cables. They are all good. So I'm just cruising around. Nobody else out - I mean nobody. No other boat trailers at the ramp. And of course, I'm doing 3k rpm and the motor coughs once, then catches and then stops dead. The tank I was on was very low so I assume I ran it dry but I've done that (on purpose) and I get a little different deal with some sputtering and time to switch tanks. But change over and I have about 1/8 left in the big tank (35 gal). I check the engine just in case there's a giant on/off switch that had moved itself into off. Nope. So I start carefully trying to restart. About 4-6 tries battery is getting tired. I am almost to the point where I will need to start paddling or call 911 in the next 30 min before I go over Willamette falls. I wiggle the coil wires and the dizzy cap basically doing nothing. But I try one more time and boom off she fires.
So I chalk it up to no fuel.
Take it back out the next night. Same deal nobody else on the river except I am smart and bring a daughter and boyfriend to row just in case. I also put 15 gals in each tank. Boat fires right up. Off we go after warmup. 15 minutes into a run up river and wham same thing. A cough and total stop. Now I doubt it is fuel and start wigglin ignition wires. Try the motor and it fires right up. Start back for the dock. Runs great. Near the dock I put it idle and let the BF drive. He gets in the seat and touches the throttle and it dies. I make him start rowing. I try starting and it fires up. I idle to the dock and we go home.
So how do I go about troubleshooting this? I need to be in the water or at least on the trailer in the water. But I want to bring some chit to try swapping out so I've got a chance of fixing it instead of getting stranded and go on the evening news. It's got to be fuel or ignition.
BBF. Points, coil nuttin fancy. Elec choke is on and hooked up because this is Oregon not SoCal. And I will say that I bet the choke is working because this early in the season the water is friggin cold. The temp gage is basically 120-130 instead of 130-150 during "Summer" season. My fuel lines run from bow and keel tanks uphill to a 3-way and then down into the bilge, up to the mech fuel pump and then up to the carb. This is the way they were all last season too and no random stopping like now. There's some pics of the motor in my gallery but I can put some more on this thread if need be.
Thanks for any help dudes!
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Steve I would bring with you an ignition coil, a set of points and a condenser, a ballsat resistor, if it has one and install a fuel pressure gauge and as always don't forget a jumper wire (incase the ignition switch is crapping out).
If you have one, put in one of those inline ignition testers, they look like a test light but have a male and female spark plug connection on them and flash when there is spark present... :sly:
I hate intermittant crap like this.. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
Good luck and always go upriver first ;)
GT
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don't forget a jumper wire (incase the ignition switch is crapping out).
Oooo!!!! GT damn!!! :o :o You know what HAS changed since last season? I tore into the control lever and rebuilt it. Which means I shoved the neutral safety switch around and probably beat it up.
Guess what happened when the boyfriend (daughters not mine ;)) touched the throttle? It stopped! (I've got a combo throttle shifter not a gas pedal.)
Theory A - I've got an intermittent short right there in the safety switches!!!
U da man GT! That's karma material right there!
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Oooo!!!! GT damn!!! :o :o You know what HAS changed since last season? I tore into the control lever and rebuilt it. Which means I shoved the neutral safety switch around and probably beat it up.
Guess what happened when the boyfriend (daughters not mine ;)) touched the throttle? It stopped! (I've got a combo throttle shifter not a gas pedal.)
Theory A - I've got an intermittent short right there in the safety switches!!!
U da man GT! That's karma material right there!
How would the nuetral safety switch kill the motor if it's already running? :sly:
Is there one of those lanyard delio's? that could do it....Good luck, I think you may be on the right track though...And thanks for the vote of confidence.. ;D
GT
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How would the nuetral safety switch kill the motor if it's already running? :sly:
GT
Hellifiknow. But an intermittent short/open in the main key/safety switch circuit fits the symptoms better than a fuel issue does. The symptoms fit a loss of power to/from the coil better than anything else. So maybe the coil or ballast suddenly failed this season instead of the other 15 years, but I know I dicked around the safety switch area over the winter and I am ALWAYS the most likely cause of the problemo!
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Hellifiknow. But an intermittent short/open in the main key/safety switch circuit fits the symptoms better than a fuel issue does. The symptoms fit a loss of power to/from the coil better than anything else. So maybe the coil or ballast suddenly failed this season instead of the other 15 years, but I know I dicked around the safety switch area over the winter and I am ALWAYS the most likely cause of the problemo!
Right there with ya! I am by far my own worst enemy...I am sometimes amazed at how badly I can screw something up. Especially the easy stuff...Knowhatamean?
GT
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Sounds like Glenn got it. But I'd still replace the ballast resistor, if you're running one. Sounds to me like the ceramic coating might be gone in one spot and a lil water...viola. Used to have the same thing happen in Mopars til I got smart and started mounting the things on top of a fenderwell instead of the firewall where water always hit it.
Just my .02
Ray
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Update: There's two switches down/upinthar kinda like the G spot and the C spot. I think they are in series. I remember wondering why 2 back when I rewired 2 years ago but like I said they worked fine last season. Isn't the Morse control dealio built for both jetboats and those assholes with the prop?
Anyhoo I'm going to 1st try getting it to fail while still on the trailer but ass hangin in the water by starting it and then jigglin the wires. I'll even assume I'm 1/2 right and jiggle the wires at the key, the start button the ballast and the coil. If I can get it to stop or even if there's nothing I'm going to then bypass the little switch fkrs and take it out but close to the dock for awhile and see whahappens.
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Now THAT'S what I'm talking about, driving while jiggling wires under the dash! Haven't done that since High School! What Hot rodding is all about!
Good luck with it, I'm unfamiliar with the Morse combo controls. Were it me, I'd bypass this 'neutral safety' switch as a test to begin with. Then start there. I think, with all respect to Glenn, you're gonna find the ballast resistor is the issue, IMHO. (Why I went Hyfire and dun run one). Never liked the idea behind those Mofo's EVER!
Ray
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Now THAT'S what I'm talking about, driving while jiggling wires under the dash! Haven't done that since High School! What Hot rodding is all about!
Good luck with it, I'm unfamiliar with the Morse combo controls. Were it me, I'd bypass this 'neutral safety' switch as a test to begin with. Then start there. I think, with all respect to Glenn, you're gonna find the ballast resistor is the issue, IMHO. (Why I went Hyfire and dun run one). Never liked the idea behind those Mofo's EVER!
Ray
Ray, you cannot hurt my feelings bro, I have learned a great deal from this site just because of the insight of people like yourself, besides, check it out ;)
Steve I would bring with you an ignition coil, a set of points and a condenser, a ballsat resistor, if it has one and install a fuel pressure gauge and as always don't forget a jumper wire (incase the ignition switch is crapping out).
If you have one, put in one of those inline ignition testers, they look like a test light but have a male and female spark plug connection on them and flash when there is spark present... :sly:
I hate intermittant crap like this.. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
Good luck and always go upriver first ;)
GT
GT
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I had an intermittent loss of power followed by a total shut down last season at Elsinore (thanks for the tow, Flytime). But it ended up being a broken wire at the ignition switch.
Thats he problem with having a 30 year old boat with 30 year old wiring ;D
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Another thing to check out is a cloged fuel filter! I had a problem that sounded alot like yours and that is what it turned out to be.
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Could also be worn / corroded contacts in the ignition switch. My Lancer did this 2yrs ago. It would just shut its self off, as soon as you touched te key it would have power again.
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my harley did the same thing
It did it right in front of a harley shop near here. I told everybody it dont like to start (kick) when people are watching so everybody turn around. It would start, they would turn around and it would die, funny as hell....now.
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Another thing to check out is a cloged fuel filter! I had a problem that sounded alot like yours and that is what it turned out to be.
A fuel pressure gauge is a bonus(maybe you have on already?) At least you'd know if you were dealing with a fuel or fire issue. I had an ign switch go bad once took me a season to figure out WTF.
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IF ITS NOT SOME KIND OF SHORT WHERE YOU SCREWED WITH IT LAST YEAR I AM GONNA BET COIL. SAME EXACT THING HAPPENED TO ME GOOD LUCK
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hotwire the boat and see if it stays running
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As an industrial shift electrician my worst nightmare is an intermitant problem. You have a heck of a time fixing it when it works.
I agree with HD.
Start by eliminating the control wires. Hot wire it and see if it keeps going. If not you're into the small section of wire that is left.
As far as the resistor, I doubt it. Coil, maybe but highly doubtfull. These are just coils of wire. The wires are either good and you have a path or they are broken and you don't. Nothing is 100% hasta
be as some dammmm strange things can happen but most of the time they work or they dont.
Ignition switch, bare wire shorting out, loose connection, fuel filter, I'm leaning that way.
Start as above jump the ignition right to the battery and take a ride. ;D
Good luck
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Weather turned nasty and I also got some work pour in so I'm busy chasing income and in hold mode on the boat.
Meanwhile I've realized I need to put the crack pipe down for a few days and clear my head. The safety switch has nuttn to do with anything but the start solenoid so it couldn't be involved in the random stopping. Which is why Glenn was politely asking me WTF Steve :sly: which means now I gotta give him another karma for being so polite.
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Fwiw, the fuel pressure gauge is a no brainer (IMHO), the filter isn't the only thing that could cause fuel issues. Man, I've broke down my share of times, but the waterfall thing spooked the crap out of me.lol
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but the waterfall thing spooked the crap out of me.lol
hah hah! Yeah I'm good at makin the story sound better than it was. There's plenty of places to catch yourself before actually doing the ultimate. But you don't think logically when you are on the uphill side and you start realizing that having some other boaters out on the water isn't such a bad thing.
[attachimg=1]
When my motor finally fired back up I was about 100 yards upriver from that little ski boat you can see in the pic.
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where is that Bonneville? used to live in portland, camped on the columbia all the time, go to multnoma falls......almost fifty years ago
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where is that Bonneville? used to live in portland, camped on the columbia all the time, go to multnoma falls......almost fifty years ago
It's Willamette Falls at Oregon City just south of downtown Portland. I live in West Linn which has a real nice, free ramp and park just upriver of the falls. It's 5 minutes from my driveway to the ramp and I've never had to wait for more than one other guy ahead of me.
Only downside is everybody else on this section of water is in a wakeboat. I am the only I mean only prick with no mufflers for miles. So it's fun but... sniff... lonely. :'(
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I went to dinner on the Spirit of Portland dinner cruz, and the big sternwheeler (christmas party) on the Wilamete, I got to drive it. Actualy I think they were both christmas parties.
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I went to dinner on the Spirit of Portland dinner cruz, and the big sternwheeler (christmas party) on the Wilamete, I got to drive it. Actualy I think they were both christmas parties.
Me too! 'cept they didn't let me drive :sly:
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gotta little certificate and everything, was in the bridge of the Spirit
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gotta little certificate and everything, was in the bridge of the Spirit
What kind of hole shot was she good for?!
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about a 3 minute 60 foot time
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Well... it's not the fuel filter. And I guess it's not random. What it does is wait until I think I have fixed it and start goofing around and get far from the dock, THEN it happens. :sly:
Weather popped out nice today and I got all the chores done so what the hey. Put a new fuel filter in, dropped it in the water, tied off to the dock and said "I'm not leaving this spot, period." Fired up the motor, let it idle for 20 minutes. Wiggled the chit out of all the coil and ballast wires, the dizzy the condensor ... nada. Had a nice chat with some tree huggers in a rowboat. Wiggled the chit out of the wires again. Turned off the engine. Started again. Said OK it WAS the fuel filter. Let off the dock.. tooled around in the NWZ. All is good. Total time that motor has been running is way more than any of the previous 2X. Get out of NWZ and head up river only 1000 feet, start circling round and round. All is good. Do this for 5 minutes. Get more confidence. Start ripping up and down near the dock but get farther and farther away.... All is good. Problemo must be solved.
45 minutes into it I am thinking about how much fun to make this post and say it was just the fuel filter!
And of course, that's when it stops dead - no cough no nuttin. :mad:
But at least this time I had something seem like cause and effect. I tried restart without really doing anything and it wouldn't fire. I jiggled the ballast and coil wires - fired right up. So just like yall been saying, next time I'm taking new resistor and diff coil with me. That won't be for at least a week. Gotta make some money first.
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How old are your fuel lines?
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You dont have a unilite do you, they can stop and reset themselves. did you hot wire it yet?
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How old are your fuel lines?
Tanks to fuel filter are 1 year.
Fuel filter to fuel pump (18") unknown but old.
Fuel pump to carb unknown but old.
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OC are you thinking the same thing I am... sucking the fuel line shut ::)
The engine shuts off, hose opens up. vvrrrooommmm till you put rpms to it.
That even happened to my FORD..... ;D
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OC are you thinking the same thing I am... sucking the fuel line shut ::)
The engine shuts off, hose opens up. vvrrrooommmm till you put rpms to it.
That even happened to my FORD..... ;D
Thats what I was thinking. Running fine till you get in it and then closing up. Cheap to replace, could'nt hurt.
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Dang....that's too bad you don't have a fuel pressure gauge.(hint,hint,hint). ;D
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But at least this time I had something seem like cause and effect. I tried restart without really doing anything and it wouldn't fire. I jiggled the ballast and coil wires - fired right up. So just like yall been saying, next time I'm taking new resistor and diff coil with me. That won't be for at least a week. Gotta make some money first.
;D
Although Jeremy brings up a good possibilty about the fuel hose collapsing on itself. Didn't think of that, and under use, more heat, definate possibility, but IMO I would think it would spit and sputter to a stop were it a fuel issue, even a filter.
I've seen stranger things with ballast resistors. It's not necessarily a case of they either 'work or don't' (Don't know who said that). They are a wirewound deal encased in ceramic. A small break or crack in the winds could easily be affected by vibration or even temperature (Or water). As I said before, worked on many Mopars with the things, and that was always the first part replaced. (Cost like $8.95 back then)
Also could easily be the coil breaking down, as someone mentioned. Cheap fixes either way. While you're at it, I'd replace the coil to dizzy wire, cap and rotor as well. Might have wiggled that wire, which would indicate the coil, the wire, or the cap connection as the culprit. Shouldn't cost more than $50 to replace all of it. And that is exactly what I'd do. Who cares what caused it if you can replace inexpensixe, easily replaced parts to fix it?
Just my .02, ........again........
Ray
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;D
Although Jeremy brings up a good possibilty about the fuel hose collapsing on itself. Didn't think of that, and under use, more heat, definate possibility, but IMO I would think it would spit and sputter to a stop were it a fuel issue, even a filter.
I've seen stranger things with ballast resistors. It's not necessarily a case of they either 'work or don't' (Don't know who said that). They are a wirewound deal encased in ceramic. A small break or crack in the winds could easily be affected by vibration or even temperature (Or water). As I said before, worked on many Mopars with the things, and that was always the first part replaced. (Cost like $8.95 back then)
Also could easily be the coil breaking down, as someone mentioned. Cheap fixes either way. While you're at it, I'd replace the coil to dizzy wire, cap and rotor as well. Might have wiggled that wire, which would indicate the coil, the wire, or the cap connection as the culprit. Shouldn't cost more than $50 to replace all of it. And that is exactly what I'd do. Who cares what caused it if you can replace inexpensixe, easily replaced parts to fix it?
Just my .02, ........again........
Ray
X2 On your .02c Ray ;D Would thay make .04c? ??? :screwy:
GT
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X2 On your .02c Ray ;D Would thay make .04c? ??? :screwy:
GT
I'm rich!!! :o :o
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OK, the weather is getting better again. I'm getting done with the chores and honeydos.... so now it is time to focus on the beeoatch again.
I could go yank a coil off an old truck I have at my rental unit and dork around trying to swap out ballast resistors and coils... or
Should I just upgrade to a MSD box? This is possible, right? I can leave my dizzy alone but replace/rewire and get rid of the ballast and the coil and go with the red box. If I do this will I be:
a) simplifying my life and increasing the chance that I fix my random motor stopping? 8)
b) expanding my scope of work and dragging out my problems while creating more - just like I always do? ???
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You'll still need to run a coil and probably a resistor.
Ray
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So the box just replaces the points?
(I clearly don't know enough to be dangerous about the motor, huh!?) :screwy:
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If you put on a MSD 6AL type box you will just be adding more hard ware to your problem.
1. You will use ONE set of your points to trigger the box.
2. You will NOT need the resistor. That is the only part you will shed. I would bet that isn't
the problem.
The box is a great idea, I just wouldn't install it till it's fixed.
Did you check the rotor? Also make sure you don't have a wire to your points grounding out.
If I were you I'd pray for it not to start :) It's much easier to fix... IMO
Good luck.
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If you wantr to go totally electronic, use a Unilite Dizzy, a Hyfire 6al, and a good coil. (mallory pro coil would be my choice since all the rest is mallory), then you can eliminate the resistor.
A few hundred bucks for all that (What is on the mooo boat).
I would suggest what I already said, replace the coil, resistor, plug and dizzy wires, cap and rotor. It will fix the problem. If it doesn't, I owe you more than a few drinks. But it will.
An msd unit falls under the same problems as std ignitions with connection issues. I agree with electrowoman on this, you are only compounding the problem with an MSD unit.
Ray
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Put a mag on it. ::)
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Terry, we need to vote but I think we all agree, you ARE 'The Extreme" lol (Kinda fitting no? ) (Maybe B-rad can change your sign in name too) ;D
Ray
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;D ;D Why not just buy a new boat...
Sorry Rebal... just picking. We have an electrician in the plant like that. Throw parts at it till it runs.
He drives me nuts. I usually have to work on equipment after he leaves and I have the problem of checking all the new parts as well as what originals are left looking for a bad part.
New isn't allways good, sometimes you ADD another problem.
When it could be a switch, broken wire to the ignition, an ignition part, fuel pump, pick up, filter, etc etc I wouldn't throw parts unless I had a large bank roll.
Remember, don't "hi tech" it till you look at the obvious. Did you use the jumper to eliminate the switch yet? If you have a spare coil take it along.
Make sure the wires to the points can't ground out to the plate. Vibration could cause it to just touch the plate... down she goes.
I'm betting right in that area if the jumper doesn't cure it.
Rotor, points, connections.
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Electrowoman, I repect your position. I ran U-Hual's Technical Center here in Tempe for a couple years and could not beleive what I saw.
Our job was not only to fix the problem, but figure out why. My mission in life are the why's. I get that. There is a line though. (Took a LOT of politicing on my part to get people to sign off on this)
There comes a time when the why's and how's are not important, especially when theres a $10 fix and a $2500 investigation into why its a cheap fix.
In My mind, if you can throw $50 worth of parts at it and fix it, who cares what was wrong? right????
It's all about bottom line.........and the product.
Ray
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I prolly shoulda clarified The $2500 and $10 fix. When you're dealing with some 30,000 trucks out there, doesn't seem a big deal, but it does to you and me. That's how I approched my job. Yeah, from a corporate standpoint, there were issues, and we addressed those, but my major point here is, just fix it. (prolly why I'm no longer with them, but that's another story)
Basically, for you and me, 'tis an easy fix. No problem. If we all had a fleet, which I am working on, then there's the issues of how and why on a failure. Other than that, just get on with it.
Ray
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I guess I'm the guy saying don't spend $2500 on a $10 fix.
That's to keep my wife happy!
The name electrowoman does not infer a woman here ;D It was her ebay handle ::)
Good luck how ever you procede ;)
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So for the jumper wire check (which is to rule out a short in the keyswitch leg) I am going to jump direct from Batt+ to the black dot on the left side of the resistor in this schematic, right?
And as long as I am distracting myself and everybody else, is the ballast resistor there to allow the coil+ to see slightly higher charge voltage (14-ish) while the excite side of the resistor is dropping a little for the alternator excite???
Many many thanks to whomever originally posted this schematic!
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The ballast resistor is to LOWER the voltage.
The excite current comes off the hot leg before going to the resistor so it's at 12 Volts.
Put your jumper on the opposite side of the resistor from the coil.
If the engine started to shut down very frequently you could put the jumper on the coil side of the resistor to rule the resistor out.
Don't leave it there as you'll wind up burning your points.
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AND the problem was......!!!!!!!!!
Ballast resistor and/or disconnecting elec choke.
I put the resistor in, also disconnected choke wire because I think it is on same circuit leg as +coil (will check this later). Also put in jumper wire to + side post of coil. Fired up took off .... no stoppage!!! Took off jumper wire.... ran around and around and around.... no stop. Going to keep spare coil and the jumper wire on board for awhile just in case.
Thanks to all of you studs for the suggestions! Could not have solved it without you.
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;D
Ray
Hadda do it! And I'm not gionna say I told you so\, lol (Sounds like an ex-wife huh?)
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First I would let the daughters boyfriend know you are cleaning your guns tonight! :o I got rid of points and run a DUI dist. they make them for everything and use 1 wire. n the dyo the kick as hard as a 6A deal without the headache. They also have a marine one for about $300 bucks. Trouble free for years. just my opinion but ditch the points, those are bow and arrow days...
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First I would let the daughters boyfriend know you are cleaning your guns tonight! :o I got rid of points and run a DUI dist. they make them for everything and use 1 wire. n the dyo the kick as hard as a 6A deal without the headache. They also have a marine one for about $300 bucks. Trouble free for years. just my opinion but ditch the points, those are bow and arrow days...
oops....on the dyno. ;D the web site is performancedistributors
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He got it fixed, give him a break! Doesn't need more work or parts. Congratulations!
I agree though,in the end, I would go MSD or all Mallory (were it me) as well, but sounds like you got the cruiser doing what it needs to do, and congats! You're first 911 solved easily! One of many to come, lol I'd just run the hell out of it for now!
Ray
We'll talk ignitions after the season, Terry made me realize how bad point systems are.
in the mean time, HAVE FUN!!!
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Or - MAYBE the reason it was randomly stopping was because I had a melted wire (- side of coil) grounding out to the intake manifold.
Saturday I put the boat in the water thinking I was all past my motor stopping and valve clatter days. Never ever had trouble getting it to start on the first crank. This time no start at all. Played and played with stuff, checked fuel, carb, took out my jumper wire and hooked it up - still nothing. Ran the battery low with all the cranking. Got the trailer, went home. :banghead: :banghead:
Sunday morning decided to remove all my wire covers, tape et cetera and completely re-check all wiring. Heck, 2 minutes later and I discover that the 4" of wire that was NOT inside a wire condom was melted and fused to the intake.
So that's all been fixed and now I strongly suspect that the entire time the REAL problem was this wire was rubbing/melting and was starting to short. Then when I stopped or jiggled things it would "mend" for awhile. Now everything is sanno and better job of wire routing.