Post by: Brad @ SCJB on February 21, 2017, 01:14:13 PM
I feel $625 is a bit steep for a new oil cooler, but in the grand scheme of things, neither is a new motor.
Should I just bite the $625 bullet or should I look into other options?
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Post by: GT Jets on February 21, 2017, 01:29:57 PM
If memory serves, that motor had a windage issue. At least it did at Burley.
You don't need the surface area of a Dan Olsen. Just my two cents.
A small I/O one should do the trick.
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Post by: GT Jets on February 21, 2017, 01:31:22 PM
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Post by: Brad @ SCJB on February 21, 2017, 02:02:43 PM
Issue at Burley is a fluke where it was puking oil. I had a ton of other issues including a broken main bolt. Whole different motor now and it's still running hot as hell.
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Post by: GT Jets on February 21, 2017, 02:51:59 PM
My gauge goes to 300 and it's pegged to the side of the gauge at the end of the race...Or even some spirited passes on the river.Same oil pan? If you remember correctly, we pulled two quarts of oil and the temp dropped 80°. I distinctly remember the look on your face when we drained the oil out.
Issue at Burley is a fluke where it was puking oil. I had a ton of other issues including a broken main bolt. Whole different motor now and it's still running hot as hell.
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Lol
What oil pan, how many quarts and how does the tray fit?
Is the tray flat or curved?
What oil and weight and how much oil? Where is the temp sensor? Do you have any Lucas Oil Stabilizer in it?
I would be shocked if you needed a cooler. Not saying it's impossible, just saying 300°F points to something like aeration/foaming. That crank makes its own weather system in the pan.
Seen it 100 times.
GT
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Post by: Brad @ SCJB on February 21, 2017, 03:00:39 PM
It's an armondos pan. Its listed as a 14 quart pan. We dyno'd at 12 quarts....And we were seeing oil pressure drops. Same at 13 quarts. Finally leveled off at 14 quarts.
Temp sensor is in the side of the pan, horizontal it's in the middle, vertically it's as low as possible.
No oil stabilizer used at this point.
Again, it's not puking oil like it was in Burley.
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Post by: GT Jets on February 21, 2017, 03:53:36 PM
Same pan...Same tray....Flat tray.Pressure drops at 12 quarts? I find that shocking. That top end does not hold 3 gallons of oil.
It's an armondos pan. Its listed as a 14 quart pan. We dyno'd at 12 quarts....And we were seeing oil pressure drops. Same at 13 quarts. Finally leveled off at 14 quarts.
Temp sensor is in the side of the pan, horizontal it's in the middle, vertically it's as low as possible.
No oil stabilizer used at this point.
Again, it's not puking oil like it was in Burley.
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Hate to say it, but something with that pan/tray combo is whack.
You should be able to run that deal at 8k with ten quarts, all day long.
I would put a call on to Armandos. Something is really wrong.
We ran a blown 514 in a day cruiser years ago with a 10 quart Stefs pan, oil ran 270-280 all the way across lake Shasta. Like 45 minutes. He was not running a oil cooler and the oil pressure never bobbled.
Let me think about this for a bit.
To me it sounds like a textbook foaming problem.
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Post by: FordLover on February 21, 2017, 05:46:32 PM
Same pan...Same tray....Flat tray.Damn that is a lot of oil. 14 quarts in a 14 quart pan? I have an armando pan on my stroker bbf, 10 quart pan and I only run 8. I know it isn't an apples to apples comparison since you drive the snot out of yours and I drive like a pussy in comparison, but just food for thought.
It's an armondos pan. Its listed as a 14 quart pan. We dyno'd at 12 quarts....And we were seeing oil pressure drops. Same at 13 quarts. Finally leveled off at 14 quarts.
Temp sensor is in the side of the pan, horizontal it's in the middle, vertically it's as low as possible.
No oil stabilizer used at this point.
Again, it's not puking oil like it was in Burley.
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Post by: GT Jets on February 21, 2017, 07:32:00 PM
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Post by: Brad @ SCJB on February 21, 2017, 07:33:37 PM
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Post by: Brad @ SCJB on February 21, 2017, 07:35:26 PM
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Post by: GT Jets on February 21, 2017, 08:03:53 PM
GT
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Post by: Brad @ SCJB on February 21, 2017, 08:05:06 PM
And you are not running a block mounted tray, correct?Correct
GT
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Post by: GT Jets on February 21, 2017, 08:05:30 PM
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Post by: Brad @ SCJB on February 21, 2017, 08:06:20 PM
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Post by: GT Jets on February 21, 2017, 08:48:21 PM
And I don't like HV pumps.
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Post by: Brad @ SCJB on February 21, 2017, 08:54:35 PM
Sorry you have ill feelings about HV pumps. Take that up with Paul Kane @ High Flow Dynamics.
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Post by: GT Jets on February 21, 2017, 09:05:48 PM
It's the pickup that was designed for the pan. It feeds to the back of the pan since the pump is in the front. The pan you posted defines the path of the pickup in the tray a little more than the pic I posted of my actual pan.Yeah, I know... Lol
Sorry you have ill feelings about HV pumps. Take that up with Paul Kane @ High Flow Dynamics.
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You should have seen the look on my machinists face when I took of the high volume pump off my marathon motor and threw it in the recycling bin right in front of him.
I thought he was going to punch me in the throat. Lmao
I can't help but think there is something bizarre going on. Having oil pressure fade with three gallons of oil in the sump is nuts. I need to think on it some more.
Did it get spun in at Westech?
GT
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Post by: Brad @ SCJB on February 21, 2017, 09:09:25 PM
Post by: GT Jets on February 21, 2017, 09:26:45 PM
Yessir, Westech.The engine was likely set up perfectly level. In a jet boat, this would be severely "nose down" and likely caused the oil pressure drop by creating a vortex at the rear of the pan where it would had the shallower oil level, because the pan is only seven and change in the rear but well over eight inches in the front, depth wise.
This is only theory, but I feel there is too much oil in the pan and your getting micro bubbles. This will heat the crap out of the oil in two ways. One, the aerated oil can't give up it's heat effectively and two, the friction of the oil getting the crap whipped out of it.
With the stroker crank and HV pump, I feel it's exacerbating the issue.
Then again, I could be completely full of shit..... I wish gn7 was still around, wouldn't mind bouncing some ideas off that crusty old fukker... I miss Bob.
GT
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Post by: GT Jets on February 22, 2017, 12:13:39 AM
What block are you using and have the lifters been restricted? Or at least restricted push rods? And how much oil pressure are you seeing and is the bypass in the pump stock?
GT
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Post by: aquaholic72 on February 22, 2017, 01:08:54 AM
your friendly local v-drive owner
Post by: 427 wilder on February 22, 2017, 04:22:16 AM
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Post by: Flusher on February 22, 2017, 09:54:16 AM
Is this your pan Bubba?
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and this pan
This is it
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IMHO, Brad, the windage tray you have is doing absolutely nothing. At best, it is providing only a slight restriction as the oil flows around the tray and into the spinning crankshaft. There may be a multitude of issues, but I don't think that pan is ideal for your application.
In regards to the HV oil pump, even the stock pump will operate in bypass unless something is consuming additional oil flow. An example would be, position squirters. It takes more horsepower to push the additional volume and the oil is being worked harder, so more heat is generated.
I'm not saying that these are the cause of your problems, but everything adds up.
Post by: GT Jets on February 22, 2017, 10:50:30 AM
There is a huge difference between the windage tray in this panI'm so glad you see it too.
and this pan
IMHO, Brad, the windage tray you have is doing absolutely nothing. At best, it is providing only a slight restriction as the oil flows around the tray and into the spinning crankshaft. There may be a multitude of issues, but I don't think that pan is ideal for your application.
In regards to the HV oil pump, even the stock pump will operate in bypass unless something is consuming additional oil flow. An example would be, position squirters. It takes more horsepower to push the additional volume and the oil is being worked harder, so more heat is generated.
I'm not saying that these are the cause of your problems, but everything adds up.
There is virtually no perimeter shielding on that pan. It's just sort of floating in the middle, the windage would come off the crank and funnel down the side of the pan. Basically making a frothy, foamy mess.
Personally, I would call Armandos and see about either pay to have him update your pan or maybe sell you a new tray, or maybe get another pan. I know it's an extra cost and a pain in the ass, but much cheaper and less of a pain in the ass than building another motor.
It's not right. I bet if you called Armando he would give you some insight. He's a one man show.
Hate to see you kill another motor because of a couple hundred bucks.
Your oil temp should run +/- 240°F for weeks at a time.
JMO
GT
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Post by: GT Jets on February 22, 2017, 10:58:19 AM
Just asking.
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Post by: Brad @ SCJB on February 22, 2017, 11:10:02 AM
If this pan/tray is junk....what should I be running? When I asked this question 8-9 years ago, everyone said Armondo's was the ticket.
I have read numerous threads of pressure drops in the Milodon pans.
Post by: GT Jets on February 22, 2017, 11:18:29 AM
The picture I posted is after I got it back from when the windage tray got hammered in Burley 2012 when I broke the main bolt and the main cap beat up the tray. Armondo's did the repair job. I can't find a picture of the tray when I bought it new back in '08-'09ish from Armondo's. It was the first pan that they built for a ford that was 14qts and meant for a jet boat. Maybe they redesigned it since they built mine...?IMHO, Armando builds a nice pan. Not a mass produced piece of shit.
If this pan/tray is junk....what should I be running? When I asked this question 8-9 years ago, everyone said Armondo's was the ticket.
I have read numerous threads of pressure drops in the Milodon pans.
The only step up would be a Stef's, but you'll need to check their financing terms before ordering.
Me personally, I'd call Armando and tell him what you're experiencing with as much detail as possible.
I'll do it if you want.
GT
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Post by: FordLover on February 22, 2017, 11:18:49 AM
The picture I posted is after I got it back from when the windage tray got hammered in Burley 2012 when I broke the main bolt and the main cap beat up the tray. Armondo's did the repair job. I can't find a picture of the tray when I bought it new back in '08-'09ish from Armondo's. It was the first pan that they built for a ford that was 14qts and meant for a jet boat. Maybe they redesigned it since they built mine...?Same here. Was told by a few to get rid of the milodin and go with the armando. I didn't know any different. Lol
If this pan/tray is junk....what should I be running? When I asked this question 8-9 years ago, everyone said Armondo's was the ticket.
I have read numerous threads of pressure drops in the Milodon pans.
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Post by: GT Jets on February 22, 2017, 11:23:58 AM
Same here. Was told by a few to get rid of the milodin and go with the armando. I didn't know any different. LolI know how to fix a Milodon.....
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Post by: FordLover on February 22, 2017, 11:56:07 AM
I know how to fix a Milodon.....That is because you are a mixture of Yoda, Gandalf, harry potter, Batman, Ron Jeremy, Buddha and bourbon. Pretty unstoppable combo.
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Post by: GT Jets on February 22, 2017, 12:24:12 PM
That is because you are a mixture of Yoda, Gandalf, harry potter, Batman, Ron Jeremy, Buddha and bourbon. Pretty unstoppable combo.So I'm green, old, have a scar on my face, only come out at night, dead but religious and a drunk?
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Uh.... Thanks?
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Post by: Steveo909 on February 22, 2017, 02:47:29 PM
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Post by: GT Jets on February 22, 2017, 03:54:29 PM
George at clay smith recommended Dooleys. He mentioned it had "a proper windage tray"
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I like the Dooley, I have one on my bbc, the Ford pan is a little odd, but never really heard anything bad about them on a 460.
To make the Milodon work requires a MOROSO stud mounted tray and Pickup tube.
You have to run them 1 quart short and restrict the lifters. Typically about .135" is enough.
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Post by: 69kona on February 22, 2017, 04:01:05 PM
Same here. Was told by a few to get rid of the milodin and go with the armando. I didn't know any different. LolHmmm ... What and why would make a big difference between the two pans just asking ..
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Post by: GT Jets on February 22, 2017, 04:48:03 PM
Hmmm ... What and why would make a big difference between the two pans just asking ..As for the Milodon, the oil swirls at the pick up the way the oil returns off of the tray. The MOROSO pick up is rectangular and the tray helps the oil "step" home. Eliminates the swirl keeping the pick up from grabbing air.
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That's what we came up with anyway. The Chevy Milodon didn't seem to have the issue.
GT
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Post by: 20sutphen on February 22, 2017, 06:10:59 PM
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Post by: Flusher on February 22, 2017, 06:45:40 PM
Just picked up a 10qt from Armando. Haven't run it yet.
Does that have a kickout one side to catch oil slinging off the rotating assembly?
Post by: Flusher on February 22, 2017, 06:47:14 PM
The picture I posted is after I got it back from when the windage tray got hammered in Burley 2012 when I broke the main bolt and the main cap beat up the tray. Armondo's did the repair job. I can't find a picture of the tray when I bought it new back in '08-'09ish from Armondo's. It was the first pan that they built for a ford that was 14qts and meant for a jet boat. Maybe they redesigned it since they built mine...?
If this pan/tray is junk....what should I be running? When I asked this question 8-9 years ago, everyone said Armondo's was the ticket.
I have read numerous threads of pressure drops in the Milodon pans.
Oil pan technology, like everything else keeps progressing. Years ago, the expanded metal (diamond stripper) windage tray was the hot ticket. Then louvered sheet metal was all the rage because oil could flow through the expanded metal and get wound up in the rotating assembly. Louvered sheet metal resisted that more. Last I looked, expanded metal was the material of choice because, even though oil can flow through it, oil slinging off the rotating assembly losses its energy when it hits the expanded metal and does not reenter the the windage cloud.
The important thing is that the windage tray is the full length of the pan. I also think that a baffle at the rear of the pan, preventing oil from sloshing up the back, and sealed all the way around. This should contain all of the oil in the sump for some 15 degrees for when boat does a wheelie.
A jet boat specific oil pan essentially refers to the direction that the trap doors open and promote oil flow during normal forward motion. A CJ requires control of the oil during hard lateral G's and in rough water that the average family ski boat will never encounter.
However not optimized for your application, some minor modifications to your pan and windage tray could go a long way.
Post by: 20sutphen on February 22, 2017, 07:29:26 PM
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