SoCal Jet Boats
Tech Talk => Engine Mechanical / Electrical => Topic started by: Nick on March 08, 2009, 10:16:23 PM
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I am most likely going to be pulling my motor before the summer to re-paint it. I also need to put in new oil pan gasket because it's leaking and I got to thinking.....(this can sometimes be bad)
Since I am going to have the motor out and I am going to be messing with the oil pan should I just go to a 10 qt pan???? I know they can be a bit spendy but I think it would be better than the stock pan that I have with the deep side in the front.
So my question is that if I go to a 10qt pan from my stock pan do I have to put in a new oil pump?
Thanks guys....
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I am most likely going to be pulling my motor before the summer to re-paint it. I also need to put in new oil pan gasket because it's leaking and I got to thinking.....(this can sometimes be bad)
Since I am going to have the motor out and I am going to be messing with the oil pan should I just go to a 10 qt pan???? I know they can be a bit spendy but I think it would be better than the stock pan that I have with the deep side in the front.
So my question is that if I go to a 10qt pan from my stock pan do I have to put in a new oil pump?
Thanks guys....
No, not really, the pick up may need to be replaced and it may be welded (tack) to the pump but you should be able to get it off w/o too much hassle, that being said, oil pumps are pretty cheap and easy to replace...
FWIW my oil pickup is a GM deal that is the preffered pick up for my pan (Dooley) because they use an OEM pan to build the bigger dealio. Just make sure you're between 1/4" to 3/8" between the pick up and the pan bottom, otherwise let her roll 8)
BTW, Tom at JBP has a pretty nice pan avail. for the price...
GT
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FWIW I put a Milodon on mine. It required a Melling M84 pump and a Milodon pickup. Already had the pump in the motor, so that was easy. Don't know about the dooley tho. Mines also a BBF. Tight fit, but I feel it's worth it, not only for the extra capacity, but with the windage tray and trap doors and baffles. Should keep the oil on the pickup head.
Ray
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FWIW I put a Milodon on mine. It required a Melling M84 pump and a Milodon pickup. Already had the pump in the motor, so that was easy. Don't know about the dooley tho. Mines also a BBF. Tight fit, but I feel it's worth it, not only for the extra capacity, but with the windage tray and trap doors and baffles. Should keep the oil on the pickup head.
Ray
Thanks Ray, and it's worth a lot to know what other ford guys are doing. So you already had the pump huh, what did the trey and pickup cost you if you dont mind my asking?
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The 460 Marine engines came with a front sump Cobra Jet oil pan. They hold 6 quarts and have an integral windage tray that also helps keep oil around the pickup. For a front sump pan, they do pretty well in a jet boat...remember, they had to keep oil around the pickup in a car with tires on asphalt/doing hard acceleration (much more g-force than a jet boat at launch).
So, whether or not you "need" a 10-quart pan depends on how you run your boat. That being said, a full-length rear sump large capacity pan certainly wouldn't hurt and would be a very smart move if you run your boat hard. When your pan comes off for pan gasket replacement, what you need to do is at least confirm that you have a CJ oil pan that has the windage tray. If you have a bone stock passenger car pan (no tray), then replace it with a rear sump jet boat pan for sure.
When changing from a front sump to rear sump oil pan, you need the pickup that goes with that specific pan and you usually have to also change from a front sump-style oil pump (M84B) to a rear sump style oil pump (M84D). Some jet boat pan manufacturers offer two different pickup tubes for a given jet boat pan, one for each type of pump..so you need to know which pump you have if you keep your existing pump and order only a pan & pickup.
LO
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The 460 Marine engines came with a front sump Cobra Jet oil pan. They hold 6 quarts and have an integral windage tray that also helps keep oil around the pickup. For a front sump pan, they do pretty well in a jet boat...remember, they had to keep oil around the pickup in a car with tires on asphalt/doing hard acceleration (much more g-force than a jet boat at launch).
So, whether or not you "need" a 10-quart pan depends on how you run your boat. That being said, a full-length rear sump large capacity pan certainly wouldn't hurt and would be a very smart move if you run your boat hard. When your pan comes off for pan gasket replacement, what you need to do is at least confirm that you have a CJ oil pan that has the windage tray. If you have a bone stock passenger car pan (no tray), then replace it with a rear sump jet boat pan for sure.
When changing from a front sump to rear sump oil pan, you need the pickup that goes with that specific pan and you usually have to also change from a front sump-style oil pump (M84B) to a rear sump style oil pump (M84D). Some jet boat pan manufacturers offer two different pickup tubes for a given jet boat pan, one for each type of pump..so you need to know which pump you have if you keep your existing pump and order only a pan & pickup.
LO
Thanks LakesOnly, I've heard you are the FORD man around these parts...
So just to confirm, do I need to get the pan off to find out about weather or not this pan could be a keeper? Or is thier a part number to look for?
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I paid around $78 for the pickup and I think $389 for the pan, without looking it up. But trust me, was a nail biter as to whether it would clear. Even had to sawzall out a u-shaped steel rod that was welded across from left to right motor mounts under the old pan. Still don't know what that was for, I would think the engine block is far more rigid that a 3/8" piece of bent rebar (Is what it looked like actually) would be, so I have no idea what it was meant to support. JIC I made another version of it and put that between the stringers under the dampner.
Ray
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Eight inch "rail to base" of pan is too much and will literally set on the intake before it will "allow" proper D/L alignment , thats why we build our pans at 7 3/4 max depth . sagged/seasoned mtr mounts exacerbate this problem as well I might add ! Tom
JBP river racer pan
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JBP river racer pan
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Or knock off of a pan somebody spent time & money doing the R&D on? You be the judge.................................. .......
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It took you 3 hours to type your first post and that is what you open up with?
Man Hot Boat dies and the drama just spreads everywhere . . . :screwy:
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Or knock off of a pan somebody spent time & money doing the R&D on? You be the judge.................................. .......
Sounds to me that the guys at JBP did the research to build a better pan, that actually fits.
BTW, welcome to the site ;D
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It took you 3 hours to type your first post and that is what you open up with?
Man Hot Boat dies and the drama just spreads everywhere . . . :screwy:
And you're helping to curb the drama how? :screwy:
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Or knock off of a pan somebody spent time & money doing the R&D on? You be the judge.................................. .......
For the record....how many ways are there to build an oil pan that looks real different from another?
GT
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And you're helping to curb the drama how? :screwy:
I read this as someone making his first impression here by accusing JBP of profiting unfairly from the work of another. This shows Tom in a light that I think is unwarranted at best, and for a first post, it is at the least rude.
How did you read it?
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Check out these pictures, the gold pan is milodon the silver is Armondo's. Ford 460 pans.
I started out with the milodon. It caused an oil pressure drop around 4400 RPM' which I never had with the stock 6 quart pan. IT TOOK MONTHS FIGHTING WITH MILODON TO GET THEM TO ADMIT THEY HAD A PROBLEM WITH THE PAN BUT THEY FINIALLY DID. They took it back and refunded my money.
The Armondo's pan cured the problem completely. You will need to cut the cross bar between mounts with any 10 quart pan. Armondo's is like $400. including the pick up. It's a very well built unit.
I put a SS plate across the bottom of the boat under my mounts incase they sagged. It wasn't needed.
Please do yourself a favor and DONT BUY the MILODON PAN!
Tom, what's your pan laid out like inside?
Good luck with which ever pan you go with. I hope you don't have to go through the bad experiance I had. Thank you all again on this board that pointed out to me that the pan was the issue.
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I read this as someone making his first impression here by accusing JBP of profiting unfairly from the work of another. This shows Tom in a light that I think is unwarranted at best, and for a first post, it is at the least rude.
How did you read it?
Take it how you will, I just call them like I see them. Sure seems to me that JBP is "manufacturing" a lot of stuff these days, makes me wonder when they had the time to design, develop, test and adjust then finally market all this new product. As for showing Tom in an unwarranted light, well let's just say that people put themselves in the light you see them in, I see shade.
Truth
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EW-
You're not the first person to have oiling issues with the Milodon pans on a BBF, you did good to buy that Armando's pan, those are some damn nice units. (heh heh heh I said unit ;D heh heh heh)
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You guys have been more than helpful on this one. Thanks for all the advice, I am sorry that Tom's name got dragged thru the mud, I of coarse did not intend for that to happen-he's never done me wrong. Seems like the piece he has is just as nice as all the others to me...
So at the end of the day it sounds like the way to go is either the Armondo's or the JBP...and no mattter what I am looking at a $400 investment.
Ok that is all I needed to know guys, thanks a lot. As always, I will post up under "Nick's Hallett Resto" when I do something.
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Take it how you will, I just call them like I see them. Sure seems to me that JBP is "manufacturing" a lot of stuff these days, makes me wonder when they had the time to design, develop, test and adjust then finally market all this new product. As for showing Tom in an unwarranted light, well let's just say that people put themselves in the light you see them in, I see shade.
Truth
Don't worry about it Nick. Every court has it's jesters. Not your fault.
Ray
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Take it how you will, I just call them like I see them. Sure seems to me that JBP is "manufacturing" a lot of stuff these days, makes me wonder when they had the time to design, develop, test and adjust then finally market all this new product. As for showing Tom in an unwarranted light, well let's just say that people put themselves in the light you see them in, I see shade.
Truth
For someone that creates a new account to cast shadows of dispersion on someones reputation you at least have nerve. As I see it the shade you see is caused by the poor light you are trying to shine. But, how many ways do you think there is to design a oil pan? And if you are going to deal in inuendo at least have a frame of refrence. You posted the side view of Tom's pan and the inside view of two other pans. No comparison can be made from those totally different views. And the way most retailers develope new products is to develope a concept and then hire a contracter to produce a proof design based on that concept. Then the vender approves the proof or requests modifications which are made as needed, by the contracter, and then a final proof is made. Once approved and blessed by the retailer/designer the part is produced and retailed.
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Take it how you will, I just call them like I see them. Sure seems to me that JBP is "manufacturing" a lot of stuff these days, makes me wonder when they had the time to design, develop, test and adjust then finally market all this new product. As for showing Tom in an unwarranted light, well let's just say that people put themselves in the light you see them in, I see shade.
Truth
Hey Truth set yourself free and get the fuk outa here.....
Yes i am a very happy customer of JBP along with many others.......
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Truth , Welcome to the boards ,Don't Know who you are nor do I understand what we did or what you percieve we did to desrerve that kind of accusation and comment ? The guy whos build my pans has been building pans for twenty plus years, they are built from new pan cores and they are really not like the other offerings with maybe the exeption of the irridite finish and shape , Have we (JBP) done something to personally offend you ? or wronged you in some way ? If this is the case give me the chance to talk to you about it me and lets chat, my cell is coming to you in a PM Tom
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well let's just say that people put themselves in the light you see them in, I see shade.
What shit are you smoking?? Give your dad back his computer, and read back just a month's worth of Tom's posts and the information and service he brings to this site...you are an idiot...
welcome to the site, we're gonna miss you
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The only problem I see with your pans Tom, is that you don't make one for a Mopar. :banghead: But there is a price we pay for being different. You have more than enough of the right stuff in all the other flavors. And most importantly all your parts come with free advice and wisdom when wanted.
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I just wanted to clear up a mistaken comment.
I posted the two side by side pans for referance between Milodon and Armondo's pan. I have nothing in this issue between Truth and Tom.
I personally appreciate having Tom on here to steer us in the right direction. His experiance is greatly appreciated on my part and is considered priceless. This site up till this incident has been nothing but positive, educational and fun.
Again, my pictures were posted to help steer people away from the "Milidon" pan and the oil pressure dropping problem it created in my 460.
I personally will be doing business with Tom as soon as this business slump turns around.
Why would you post an attack on someone here? Who the #### are you anyway??
Do you remember the old saying "You can't cure stupid"?
I hope that isn't your problem.
Tom, I hope you didn't think I was taking Truth's side in any way shape or form.
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SnoC, Mopar pan at your pleasure , just say the word, Electro no problem and no offense taken (below is my pan) , "truth" the phones waiting here next to my desk top! If you got a problem call lets talk Tom
Granted the pics Electro put up are Ford ours is BBC but you folks compare on your own
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I could tell the differences Tom, Don't worry about it. Probably a disgruntled former employee from one of the "manufacturer's" many companies.
Yours is tremendously different than the Milodon I bought, wish I'da know you did those first, really. The windage tray, everything different. Even the ribs, but I'm not here to address that issue, that's all yours.
We'll see if I have the Oil pressure problem at high RPM that Electrowoman had real quick with my Milodon. I suspect more a problem with a leaking pump/pickup or gasket/connection between them than the oil pan, IMHO, but whatever.
I can attest fit was a major concern, but since I have a JE pump on this one that is set back a tad from where the JC I have in the Saguaro is may prove to be a bit more challenging, I got it in there and nowhere near the pump or intake housing.
Might take feeler guages to measure how far away it is from the bottom of the hull, however ;D, but clears it.
Ray
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Hey Ray,,, I don't want to cause you any concern on the Milodon pan but part of the issue was everyone saying it could't be the pan. (not on this board)
I took the pan off. Put on a new pump, new gaskets, verified pick up distance from the bottom, pressure tested the pickup (air) and took it back to the lake.
Same problem, 4400 rpms and oil pressure dropped to 20 psi from 75 I don't know if it would have gone to zero or not. I didn't give it a chance.
The second contact person I talked to at Milodon said they have problems but didn't know why. Some 460's have the issue and some don't. They bought the pan and pick up back.
The first guy I talked to at Milodon was a real dick. He said It was the oil pump pressure relief valve. It was the HV oil pump sucking the pan dry. It was the clouds over the moon. Everything but the pan.
I hope you're lucky. I also hope you back out of the gas quick enough to keep from doing damage if it does drop the pressure.
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Hey Ray,,, I don't want to cause you any concern on the Milodon pan but part of the issue was everyone saying it could't be the pan. (not on this board)
I took the pan off. Put on a new pump, new gaskets, verified pick up distance from the bottom, pressure tested the pickup (air) and took it back to the lake.
Same problem, 4400 rpms and oil pressure dropped to 20 psi from 75 I don't know if it would have gone to zero or not. I didn't give it a chance.
The second contact person I talked to at Milodon said they have problems but didn't know why. Some 460's have the issue and some don't. They bought the pan and pick up back.
The first guy I talked to at Milodon was a real dick. He said It was the oil pump pressure relief valve. It was the HV oil pump sucking the pan dry. It was the clouds over the moon. Everything but the pan.
I hope you're lucky. I also hope you back out of the gas quick enough to keep from doing damage if it does drop the pressure.
EW, I don't want to beat an already dead horse here, but what oil pump pick up were you using? Sorry in advanced for the thread jack...
GT
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EW, I don't want to beat an already dead horse here, but what oil pump pick up were you using? Sorry in advanced for the thread jack...
GT
Don't you mean 'potentially Dead Cow'????
Ray
Oh and GT, good advice on the OIl Press guage, since we're all jacking this thread to hell anyway. A few raps, and the problem WAS the ignition switch.
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The pick up was milodon to match the pan. The HV pump was new, the second pump I put on was new. The gaskets were new. The gap was verified pan to pickup.
No doubt about it, the pan design just flat didn't work on my engine and many more on this site.
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The pick up was milodon to match the pan. The HV pump was new, the second pump I put on was new. The gaskets were new. The gap was verified pan to pickup.
No doubt about it, the pan design just flat didn't work on my engine and many more on this site.
Just making sure, Milodon pans are acually very good quality pieces, I was just curious, very suprising that they would not get to the bottom of this issue. I guess they can afford the bad press ???
Thanks EW
Dead Cow, that's there is pretty funny, I think my son came up with a name for your boat Ray, hows about "USDA Choice" ;D
GT
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I wasn't second guessing you, I am concerned now. Guess I'll find out. My lil brain has to think of more obvious solutions. The drop in pressure can only come from pickup starvation, no, someone clue me in if I'm wrong.
Mine has 2 trap doors and 1 extra baffle in it. Makes sense to me, but maybe not, maybe the source of the issue??
RAy
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Dead Cow, that's there is pretty funny, I think my son came up with a name for your boat Ray, hows about "USDA Choice"
GT
Lol, Good one. My son yesterday came up with " Eat Mor Chikin" and wanted me to get a sponsorship from Chik-Fil-A, lol
Ray
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I agree Milodon makes great pans. I have used and am using them on other engines now with out any issues. I just for the life of me can't believe they wouldn't get to the bottom of this 460 marine problem.
The sad part was the first milodon rep denying any possible way the pan could be causing the pressure drop.
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I agree Milodon makes great pans. I have used and am using them on other engines now with out any issues. I just for the life of me can't believe they wouldn't get to the bottom of this 460 marine problem.
The sad part was the first milodon rep denying any possible way the pan could be causing the pressure drop.
Probably a MOPAR freak LOL ;D I have been told since I was a little kid that MOPAR engines don't know how to fail.... :sly:
Always wanted to put a 426 Hemi in a 18' Flatty and just rubbit! :-*
GT
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When I contacted Armondo about a pan he told me he feels the oil is following the crank and not falling back into the pan.
The milodon pan sucks with oil control out the rear, piss poor to no baffeling and windage control. Add to that no wipers and it = trouble.
Just from my experiance there is no way no how I would ever put a milodon marine pan on a 460.
The chevy versions may be fine, I'm only talking about 460's.
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When I contacted Armondo about a pan he told me he feels the oil is following the crank and not falling back into the pan.
The milodon pan sucks with oil control out the rear, piss poor to no baffeling and windage control. Add to that no wipers and it = trouble.
Just from my experiance there is no way no how I would ever put a milodon marine pan on a 460.
The chevy versions may be fine, I'm only talking about 460's.
They need to make one out of Lexan to see WTF...Now that would be cool, remember those clear HEI dizzy caps? O0
GT
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Probably a MOPAR freak LOL I have been told since I was a little kid that MOPAR engines don't know how to fail....
Always wanted to put a 426 Hemi in a 18' Flatty and just rubbit!
GT
Funny you say that. Back in MY day, built many a 340 and 440 Mopar. Got Drunk one night and a few friends around decided, for fun, we'd blow up this Slant 6 I had behind the garage (This was all back east) in a pickup. We drained all the oil out, and water, fired it up, dropped a concrete block on the pedal and it ran for about 15 minutes or so before shutting down. About a beer and a half for us at that point. We laughed, had another beer or two, fired it up again, ran fine, dropped the block back on it, again, ran for about the same time, shut down. We figured we HAD to have killed it. Nope. Did this like 5 times total. By that point we were too drunk to even get the key back in the ignition.
Sold the truck a few months later, put oil in it and it STILL fired up and idled.
Ray
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::) Not to sure it would be a good place to put your head O0
That would be a great one for myth busters. Explain the windage in an engine crank case.
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::) Not to sure it would be a good place to put your head O0
That would be a great one for myth busters. Explain the windage in an engine crank case.
Hey there you go, those goofy fukers are local (meaning about 45 min. from here, not 5150).. ;D
GT
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those goofy fukers are local (meaning about 45 min. from here, not 5150)..
GT
now there's a siggy quote if I ever saw one! ;D
Ray
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Lol, Good one. My son yesterday came up with " Eat Mor Chikin" and wanted me to get a sponsorship from Chik-Fil-A, lol
Ray
COCK A DOODLE MOOOOO!
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The draining the oil and water post above reminds me of a friend of mine :screwy:
He lost the oil drain plug out of his VW Beetle and he was DRIVING around town looking for it laying on the street.
He followed the oil trail and found it. Drove home put it back in and filled it up with oil...
Ran fine :sly:
Go figure! High school days ;D
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COCK A DOODLE MOOOOO
Sports fans, we may have a winner
Ray
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I can't believe that this is how THIS thread is gonna end.
That's a wrap . 8)