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eliminator18

  • Karma: +2/-0
Push rod size
« on: June 12, 2015, 06:18:31 AM »
What size push rod do you guys recommend? 5/16 or 3/8


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GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Push rod size
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2015, 06:45:33 AM »
What are you building?

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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

eliminator18

  • Karma: +2/-0
Re: Push rod size
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2015, 06:59:46 AM »
496 with 781 heads


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86caribbean

  • Karma: +11/-0
Re: Push rod size
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2015, 08:11:50 AM »
Pushrod diameter has no correlation to engine size; it’s all about cam profile and spring pressures to keep deflection to a minimum. I've seen push rods from 5/16 all the way to 1/2 & 9/16 for something like pro stock and pro mod. Length obviously has to be determined due to many changed variables like deck height, cam base circle, cyl.heads, longer valve stems, ect., all in the end to give you the proper geometry and contact pattern on the valve stem tip. If any of these measurements have changed I would purchase an adjustable set of pushrods for length checking purposes and order your required length. I really doubt that you are going to be running extremely high spring pressures, so a decent quality hardened (black) one piece 3/8 push rod from any reputable company like Comp, Manley or Manton would work fine. Good luck…and remember cheap isn’t good and good isn’t cheap, you get what you pay for… :thumbup:
« Last Edit: June 12, 2015, 08:15:16 AM by 86caribbean »
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eliminator18

  • Karma: +2/-0
Re: Push rod size
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2015, 08:32:04 AM »
Cool, thank you!!


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eliminator18

  • Karma: +2/-0
Re: Push rod size
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2015, 08:47:52 AM »
This is the cam card, I was just wondering if the bigger push rod is better?


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86caribbean

  • Karma: +11/-0
Re: Push rod size
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2015, 09:04:01 AM »
This cam does not require anything bigger than a 3/8 push rod.
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eliminator18

  • Karma: +2/-0
Re: Push rod size
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2015, 09:07:57 AM »
Thank you!!


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86caribbean

  • Karma: +11/-0
Re: Push rod size
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2015, 09:18:34 AM »
Comp. push rod part #'s for that cam are 7154-16 or 7954-16 and required length.
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jamiemwedmore1234

  • Karma: +10/-0
Re: Push rod size
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2015, 09:37:44 AM »
I have a set of cranes3/8 push rods that I had on my 496 stroker that are sitting on a shelf shoot me a offer if interested 951-764-5019
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Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: Push rod size
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2015, 02:19:14 PM »
What size push rod do you guys recommend? 5/16 or 3/8

7/16"!

The more rigid, the more stable your valve train.  If those are your only options, bigger is better.  For the same wall thickness round tube, a larger diameter will be substantially stiffer.
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86caribbean

  • Karma: +11/-0
Re: Push rod size
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2015, 02:50:55 PM »
Sorry, I have to professionally disagree, this engine and camshaft does not need 7/16 pushrods. I’m not even running 7/16 push rods in my 565ci alcohol engine that has a mechanical roller cam and has 320lbs on the seat and 845lbs over the nose and I turn that engine to 7,700 rpm and during regular valvetrain inspections the Manley 3/8  .080 wall one piece tapered push rods look great. These push rods have been in that engine for 211 runs, that’s 5 seasons. This boat engine will not even come close to this kind of spring pressures and rpm, this is just a mild hydraulic flat tappet cam that most likely will never see 6,000 rpm.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2015, 02:53:15 PM by 86caribbean »
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jamiemwedmore1234

  • Karma: +10/-0
Re: Push rod size
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2015, 03:27:05 PM »
Just from personal experience I pretzeld 3 pushrods on one side of the motor towing a seadoo up river  for know apparent reason I replaced them all with 3/8 crane pushrods never happend again


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jimpen

  • Karma: +68/-0
Re: Push rod size
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2015, 03:27:23 PM »

Sorry, I have to professionally disagree, this engine and camshaft does not need 7/16 pushrods. I’m not even running 7/16 push rods in my 565ci alcohol engine that has a mechanical roller cam and has 320lbs on the seat and 845lbs over the nose and I turn that engine to 7,700 rpm and during regular valvetrain inspections the Manley 3/8  .080 wall one piece tapered push rods look great. These push rods have been in that engine for 211 runs, that’s 5 seasons. This boat engine will not even come close to this kind of spring pressures and rpm, this is just a mild hydraulic flat tappet cam that most likely will never see 6,000 rpm.
.  Now you went and done it. Lol


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86caribbean

  • Karma: +11/-0
Re: Push rod size
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2015, 05:19:16 PM »
LOL, hi Jim..not trying to stir the shit pot...LOL..Flusher's thought process is correct, larger diameter for rigidity and less deflection working against big spring pressures and high rpm is all good, when needed, this engine’s application doesn’t even come close to those needs, actually the larger 7/16 push rods could actually work against valvetrain dynamics causing earlier possible valve float due to low spring pressures trying to close the valve working against more reciprocating weight. That large of a diameter of  push rod is way over kill for this cam and spring application. Comp Cam's engineers have done plenty of R&D, and if they thought 7/16 poles were necessary, they would of recommended them for this kit.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2015, 05:26:48 PM by 86caribbean »
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jimpen

  • Karma: +68/-0
Re: Push rod size
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2015, 05:23:38 PM »

LOL, hi Jim..not trying to stir the shit pot...LOL..Flusher's thought process is correct, larger diameter for rigidity and less deflection working against big spring pressures and high rpm is all good, when needed, this engine’s application doesn’t even come close to those needs, actually the larger 7/16 push rods could actually work against valvetrain dynamics causing earlier possible valve float due to low spring pressures trying to close the valve working against more reciprocating weight. That large of a diameter of  push rod is way over kill for this cam and spring application. Comp Cam's engineers have done plenty of R&D, and if they though 7/16 poles were necessary, they would of recommended them for this kit.
. Keep Joe on his toes........ Lol


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86caribbean

  • Karma: +11/-0
Re: Push rod size
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2015, 05:31:44 PM »
Joe is a really nice guy with a lot of knowledge, spent some time the other night on the phone with him running idea’s back and forth. :thumbup:
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jimpen

  • Karma: +68/-0
Re: Push rod size
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2015, 06:10:55 PM »

Joe is a really nice guy with a lot of knowledge, spent some time the other night on the phone with him running idea’s back and forth. :thumbup:
. I agree Joe is great guy and very helpful.


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Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: Push rod size
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2015, 09:53:38 AM »
You done caught me f'n off at work again Hans.

Your post was very thorough and well thought out, unlike my half fast reply.  When I clicked reply, there were none.  When I clicked submit, there was already two pages and the issue was resolved.

I think the difference between larger diameter and smaller diameter push rods will not manifest itself in wear, but only be visually apparent in Spintron testing.  The theory that I buy into is that a stiffer push rod promotes a more rigid valve train.  A more rigid valve train allows the valve to more closely follow the lobe profile as intended by the designer.  Lift and duration are not lost to distortion of the push rod.  Valve control is is not complicated by an unknown spring rate imposed by bending of the push rods.

Lastly, I think that the weight difference is negligible, particularly because of the location in the system where it is added.  1. The push rods will only move .3350/.3380 compared to the valve moving (a theoretical) .570/.575.  2. The leverage acting on the push rod and lifter, via the rocker arm, by the valve spring.  What I mean by this is that the mechanical advantage of the rocker arm is in favor of returning the lifter to the base circle of the cam lobe.  The most gains from a light weight valve train is in the sprung weight, i.e. valve/retainer.  Sure, additional mass has an affect, but it is one of those compromises where did it hurt/help performance/reliability?

Cheers,

Joe
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86caribbean

  • Karma: +11/-0
Re: Push rod size
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2015, 05:09:15 PM »
All of this pertaining to valvetrain dynamics and or harmonics is very true. Again I totally agree with the larger dia. push rod for rigidly and strength when you enter that category. Over the last 35 years with the development of the Sprintron, racers along with valvetrain manufactures have learned a tremendous amount. There are many ways we have found how to control and stabilize the valvetrain at very high RPM, like aftermarket blocks with raised cam tunnels along with 60mm journal bores, push rod styles and materials, shaft style rocker arms, and most important the valve spring itself. Any performance engine builder knows that push rods will flex when over coming spring pressure and big cylinder pressures. This is why aftermarket head manufactures have very generous openings for the push rods. I also agree with the sprung (return weight) returning the lifter to the base circle has a more dramatic affect, like you stated the valve and retainer. This is a major factor of cost for a racing valvetrain, buying titanium valves and retainers. But the un- sprung weight will also play a part too, I had the luxury of looking, holding, feeling push rods from a now day pro stock engine, and even though that rod was 9/16 in dia. it weighed hardly nothing as I held it in my hard, I was truly amazed. But, for the most part valvetrain stability begins with the proper spring, but when that spring pressure reaches a certain level due to RPM expected and cam profile we have to start looking at the other components for other possible weak links, like the link between crank and cam, push rods and stud mounted rocker arms. This is all really great info. for everyone to read, but back to the original question spawning this thread, for this particular engine build and application a 7/16 dia. push rod is not needed by a long shot, but the final choice is entirely up to the owner and again if Comp Cams felt like 7/16 were needed, they for surely would have that part number in the colum for this cam and lifter kit.
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GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Push rod size
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2015, 05:43:01 PM »
All of this pertaining to valvetrain dynamics and or harmonics is very true. Again I totally agree with the larger dia. push rod for rigidly and strength when you enter that category. Over the last 35 years with the development of the Sprintron, racers along with valvetrain manufactures have learned a tremendous amount. There are many ways we have found how to control and stabilize the valvetrain at very high RPM, like aftermarket blocks with raised cam tunnels along with 60mm journal bores, push rod styles and materials, shaft style rocker arms, and most important the valve spring itself. Any performance engine builder knows that push rods will flex when over coming spring pressure and big cylinder pressures. This is why aftermarket head manufactures have very generous openings for the push rods. I also agree with the sprung (return weight) returning the lifter to the base circle has a more dramatic affect, like you stated the valve and retainer. This is a major factor of cost for a racing valvetrain, buying titanium valves and retainers. But the un- sprung weight will also play a part too, I had the luxury of looking, holding, feeling push rods from a now day pro stock engine, and even though that rod was 9/16 in dia. it weighed hardly nothing as I held it in my hard, I was truly amazed. But, for the most part valvetrain stability begins with the proper spring, but when that spring pressure reaches a certain level due to RPM expected and cam profile we have to start looking at the other components for other possible weak links, like the link between crank and cam, push rods and stud mounted rocker arms. This is all really great info. for everyone to read, but back to the original question spawning this thread, for this particular engine build and application a 7/16 dia. push rod is not needed by a long shot, but the final choice is entirely up to the owner and again if Comp Cams felt like 7/16 were needed, they for surely would have that part number in the colum for this cam and lifter kit.

I install a rev kit in anything spinning faster than 5,500rpm.

The rev kits are super cheap, easy to install and I like the security they offer in case a lifter escapes. The benifits are less with a roller, but at higher rpm I feel it can help keep the added mass of the lifters on the lobe.
You do have to buy a specific kit for conversion lifters. OEM style you can run the same kits for a flat tappett deal. Just be sure to check for proper fit of the cups.

GT
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

TIMINATOR

  • Karma: +5/-0
Re: Push rod size
« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2015, 03:41:11 PM »
Stock 5/16 pushrods are fine with up to about a 230@.050 cam, and log exhausts, those only need marginally heavier springs, and the added RPM is no big deal unless your pump is worn out. The biggest deal is to run the valve train geometry to make sure you are using the correct length pushrod. Things that affect valve train geometry: Decked block(especially if BHJ decked), milled heads, bigger valves in old heads, a lot of valve jobs, adding roller rocker arms, head gasket thickness, size of cam (lift and base circle), valve length, aftermarket heads, going to or from solid or hydraulic lifters (seat cups are at a different height), and I'm sure that I missed a few more.  TIMINATOR
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