SoCal Jet Boats
Tech Talk => Engine Mechanical / Electrical => Topic started by: ROMPERSTOMPER on February 04, 2010, 03:17:38 PM
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Been a while sice Ive posted. I finally finished the romperstomper and took it out for the first run at the Top papp memorial. It ran great. Since I lost the tune I had on the dyno I had to start all over on the water because I didnt want to take the motor back out. I got a pretty good base tune but it still needs a lot more tunning. When I rigged this boat I spared no expense on the cooling system and fuel system using all an hoses and hose ends. My first question is after about 6 to 8 high speed laps around elsonore one fuel tank ran dry and the other was about half full the passenger side ran out first. the boat would not run with one tank empty? good thing I was close to the dock when it ran out. so I refilled both tanks and boat fired right up. shortly after at a 5 to 10 mph speed the the driver side tank was over flowing and dumping fuel out the cap. I know why this is happening kind of. My fuel system is rigged as follows. 2 12 gal tanks with -8 bungs welded at the rear bottom of the tanks. both fuel lines go from the rear of the tanks to a - 8 y block mounted above the hand hole cover above the pump in the rear of the boat. from there 1 -8 hose routes to the passenger side rear of engine block to a water fuel seperater then up the block half way to a airamotive fuel filter then to the airamotive fuel pump mounted on the hull directly behind the engine then up to the fuel rail on the tunnel ram. on the other side of the intake is the return where the regulater is mounted then to a -6 y block and 2 -6 hoses returning to each tank that was sopposed to return fuel evenly to both tanks. I think what is going on could be a few things one since the fuel pump is in fact closer to the passenger tank it may draw fuel easyier from that tank. I think my return set up is not working as planned sending fuel un evenly to the 2 tanks. I have no idea why. I want to know if it is possible to instead of running 2 return lines to each tank if it would work if i ran a y block right before the fuel pump returning the fuel from the fuel rail directly back to the fuel pump eliminating my fuel return issues. I'm worried this may cause a issue at low speeds or at idle because it will have more fuel returning than the engine will be using. besides a rise in fuel pressure what other things would i expect to happen? have any of you guys had this issue with efi, or even having issues with your fuel tanks not draining evenly. If any of you do have efi which I know is rare in a boat like these please let me know how you rigged your set up or any issues you had.
question # 2. Damm msd has to have a full 14 volts to run rite. Im having issues with this as well. I have 2 gold top duralast batteries on each side of the rear of the boat wired together with a perko switch there rigged to work as one but I can switch to run 1 to another if I want but cant because of my set up. there is too much wiring to run the boat on just one. I recently replaced with the motor a complete new wire harness from hardin marine. my question is. Is 1 altenater enough to power 2 good size batteries. I'm going to pull it off the boat and have it rebuilt to put out more power I hope this works. this efi set up draws a ton of power just the fuel pump alone will drain the batt fast if left on. do you guys have any issues with this sort of thing what is your adivice. I going for my second tryal next weekend I was hoping some of you experts can steer me in a time saving direction.
Thank You for you help and bare with my spelling
Jimmy..
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Heres a few pics
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The fuel issue sounds like typical jet boat fuel shit. Make sure your hoses from your tanks are the EXACT same length from between the Y and the tanks. Otherwise it will always pull from the closest tank first. As to why the one tank is filling from the other? I couldn't tell you. Someone else will have to pipe up for the MSD issues.
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thank you. I know that the main fuel lines from the tanks are the same length. the return lines may be a few inches difference. Got lazy towards the end of making all those damm an lines. Didnt think a few inches would make a big diff on the return.
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bigger pictures
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Also consider that the vent lines and/or the filler necks/caps on each tank may be flowing air differently, making one have more backpressure than the other.
Maybe you can think of a way to run it with the filler caps cracked open for awhile and see if anything changes.
You could maybe rig up a temp surge container of some sort. First try it on the return line so you can test out whether it is the return leg of your loop or the supply leg. If you put a temp surge container (something to let the return gas fill into and then gravity lines out of it back to the side tanks) and the problem goes away you know it's with the return sections.
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Could you just run one fuel bypass with a selector switch into which tank it goes into?
And what did you use to tune the fuel map at the dyno, your personal lab top?
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Used a close friend of mine's lap top. of course his lap top crashed after I lost the tune so kissed it good bye. If i told you guys the bad luck I've had with this project and everything I've done twice or three times it would probably crash this site before you could read it. That's what type of luck I have with this boat. Now I'm using my brothers lap top and yes were saving each tune onto a flash drive to prevent that costly and time consuming error again. learn the hard way you learn more but it really sucks! :banghead:
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Used a close friend of mine's lap top. of course his lap top crashed after I lost the tune so kissed it good bye. If i told you guys the bad luck I've had with this project and everything I've done twice or three times it would probably crash this site before you could read it. That's what type of luck I have with this boat. Now I'm using my brothers lap top and yes were saving each tune onto a flash drive to prevent that costly and time consuming error again. learn the hard way you learn more but it really sucks! :banghead:
whats up bro when are you going out for testing i will meet you out there
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i have always wondered if there was a way to run a hose to each tank and wonder if it would balance them out!
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ROMP:
I posted on this site how to modify my tanks for large pickups and in my 8-71 EFI build up I showed the cross-over balance hose. I will try and find the links later. Here is what I did.
I put large pickups (-12AN bungs with huge tubes on top of the tanks) in both tanks but only use ONE to feed the Aeromotive pump. I return to only ONE tank (-6AN) from the regulator. However, I have a balance cross over hose linking the 2 tanks together at the bottom of each tank. This makes the whole system act as one tank. I have never had a problem. I have even ran them down to ¼ of a tank and it was good. I now only fill up one tank at the gas pump and the balance hose (-12AN) takes care of filling both tanks evenly. Also I posted here where I made separate vents for the tanks because I do not trust the vented caps either. I think I have had these tanks out 4 times to weld/modify them. Welding on these tanks is a little scary. Proper prep and procedure are a must.
T.J.
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I just went back and re-read your post regarding your wire harness and charging system. I am using one battery and do not have an issue. I built my wire harness for the regular boat stuff and my EFI harness is from Accel. I also wish I built my EFI wire harness from scratch cause I had to modify that as well for a cleaner fit. I am running a ONE wire alternator I think I got at Summit. I think it is a 65AMP alternator. Knock on wood it is working good. You are running your big MSD wires directly from the battery correct. Are you having issues with the MSD, if so what is happening.
Also getting back to your fuel system. You will have issues returning fuel back right before the pump. For one the fuel might be warm, which may cause issues with the Aeromotive pump. Return type EFI systems utilize the rest of the fuel in the tank to “cool” the fuel that is returned to it. As for your current return system now does not work as you already experienced, even though you tried making the return lines the same length does not matter. The only was is a balance cross over or a dual selector valve like the Ford trucks run, but those are going to take some nifty wiring and will not accept AN fittings. Also you would have to get a feed selector valve that is elect. Actuated which is not cheap. So when you switch to the left tank you also want to return to the left tank and vice versa. Sorry to say but your tanks gotta come out and be modified. Man I wish I lived out West. This is cake to modify that tanks for a cross-over balance hose.
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Man I wish I lived out West.
You ain't the only one! You could really make a lot of people's lives easier if you were out here. You ever think of doing an e-commerce type shop?
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Could you just run one fuel bypass with a selector switch into which tank it goes into?
This is what we did. I would have liked to get one of those $600+ electric selector valves with both fuel feed and return, but ended up with two identical manual valves--one for the feed lines and one for the return. That way I just switched both at the same time to draw from and to return to the same tank. Never had a problem.
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could you use 1 of these
http://pollak.thomasnet.com/viewitems/fuel-tank-selector-valves/light-truck-6-port-motor-driven-valve?&forward=1
item#270495872752 on Ebay $59.03
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TJS thank you for your post. I knew you would have some good advice. I knew I should have done that.
Question. If I run a big hose from one tank to the other do I really need a selector switch. Wont gravity even out the 2 tanks?. Man I don't really have room in my boat to do that As you know space is tight and my feed lines currently are 2 -8 bungs welded at the back bottom of the tanks where the balancing hose would go. I just had them tanks out to weld and polish, it is a huge pain in the ass to remove em :banghead: ugg it makes perfect sense though because that's the only thing I havnt done twice. TJS my efi is a fast xfi came with a harness I as well had to modify i'm RUNNING A FAST DUEL SINC DISTRIBUTOR, msd 7 al box and hvac 7al coil. Ive gone over the wiring about 2 dozen times and have it wired very well. My efi is set to be full sequincel sp. Is yours?
I think my problem may lie in the alternater. I'm going to run a volt meeter on it this weekend. Its the only part I havent replaced in the motor swap. I was woundering if I have it rebuilt to 120 amp if it will be enough to keep both batteries charged at 14.5. It is a marine 1 wire alt. What happend was at the lake When I ran out of fuel on one side of the tank and the boat shut down that's the first thing I checked but I checked the wrong tank so ran the batt down tryin to start it. When I gassed up, the boat fired rite up but ran like shit on the low end poping didnt want to idle less responsive typical msd with low voltage.
TJS
How have you been tunning your efi ?
What impeller are you running?
How much hp ? Questimate
Are you running full sequencial or batch fire ?
What's your water temp at while running? Mine was very low like 120 150 the water was freezin tho.
What distributor are you running?
How fast is she running at what boost?
I love you boat! It's bad ass and reminds me of mine the way we rigged out boats. Believe me or not I got a ton of ideas from this forum and they have helped in a huge way. I Am greatfull for your and everyones help thank you.
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You do not need any sort of selector valve if you are running a balance hose set up. Yes gravity will even out the 2 tanks making them act as one. That is the main reason why I did this. Plus it makes filling the boat up easy cause only filler has to be filled.
Sequential (easier to tune and idle vs batch) MSD 7AL with the wiz bang MSD coil.A MSD Pro-billet Dist. that is modified for a cam-sync signal. I am swapping pulleys (going 10% over) and dyno tuning it in about a month or so. I know a good EFI tuner that is well known everywhere.
I have not dyno’ed it yet so last season I ran conservative. 6psi boost and AA stainless impeller. Don’t really know that top speed because I can’t see shit. My eyes water too much and afraid to stay in it, got to get better goggles, and yes I have a kill to and wear my safety vest. All I know I sawed off 2 bigger cube blower boats (Daytona and a Sleek) out of the hole and they never caught me. One was a real shit talker to his buddies too and I sawed him off in front of a sand bar where his buddies were watching.
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You ain't the only one! You could really make a lot of people's lives easier if you were out here. You ever think of doing an e-commerce type shop?
Yup I have done a lot of stuff though the mail for Mustang guys.
T.J.
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Nice love to hear you smoke on some shit talkers. I was going to run a pro billet but the fast duel sync just had came out so I went with it. I'm running a bronze a-b and it seems like its not enough. I don't have my top end tuned completely but it feels like it will easily rev to 8000 rpms. that's with out the 300 shot of nitrous. I may have to get a bigger impeller. I wounder how our boats would do in a race TJS. My first dyno tune put out 1020 hp at around 6700 on nitrous and 110 vp. about 750 hp without. I don't think it was that great of a tune tho. My brother is really good with tunning efi by expierance and trial and error. he's done electromotive hall-tec and now fast. he's gonna run excel on his 69 camaro 383 so he will soon be familiar with excel. I love and hate efi because there is so much you can adjust to really dial your motor in but it takes time to see what you motor likes, there all different.
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http://www.socaljetboats.com/engine-mechanical-electrical/large-fuel-pickup-and-vent-project-beginning-pics/
http://www.socaljetboats.com/projects/more-running-video-of-the-bbc-8-71-efi-project/
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http://www.socaljetboats.com/engine-mechanical-electrical/fuel-vents-second-design-done-!!!-pics/ (http://www.socaljetboats.com/engine-mechanical-electrical/fuel-vents-second-design-done-!!!-pics/)
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i have always wondered if there was a way to run a hose to each tank and wonder if it would balance them out!
The only was is a balance cross over or a dual selector valve like the Ford trucks run, but those are going to take some nifty wiring and will not accept AN fittings.
I'm glad for those answers. Gonna be a similar problem on my MFI deal, and I was kinda figuring on the same issues. There is NO WAY, to my mind, you are ever going to get both tanks to seal identically and flow evenly. A cross over line between them seems the least costly way to address this.
But would it not be beneficial to have a crossover line from the bottom, rear of the tanks (I'm assuming saddle tanks) as well as one from the top front? Just thinking out loud here. (A lot of hose, but eliminates a $600 switch that will still cause, in my lil brain, issues restarting when one tank runs out and you switch over, same as the Ford trucks have when it happens).
I think Nordie has some experience with this same phenomenon as well, on his carb'd deal at the AVI.
Ray
TJS, I'm with Skip, you NEED to move out here somewheres. Between Nick and you, we'd all have the sweetest sleds on the planet!
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I would think that in order for gravity to balance the tanks, the cross over hose would have to connect at the bottom of the tanks. Although I like the idea of filling both tanks from one side, wouldn't that create a safety problem--filling the bilge with fuel (emptying both tanks) if there was a break in the line? I thought that is the reason that newer tanks feed from the top. I could see some safety inspection and/or insurance issues with this setup.
We also found that the aeromotive high pressure fuel pump we used was much better at pushing than it was at sucking. Had to blow into the fills to help prime the pump a couple of times.
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I would think that in order for gravity to balance the tanks, the cross over hose would have to connect at the bottom of the tanks. Although I like the idea of filling both tanks from one side, wouldn't that create a safety problem--filling the bilge with fuel (emptying both tanks) if there was a break in the line? I thought that is the reason that newer tanks feed from the top. I could see some safety inspection and/or insurance issues with this setup.
We also found that the aeromotive high pressure fuel pump we used was much better at pushing than it was at sucking. Had to blow into the fills to help prime the pump a couple of times.
HAHA Rays good at that ;D got ya back bud just funnin lol
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I think Nordie has some experience with this same phenomenon as well, on his carb'd deal at the AVI.
Ray
TJS, I'm with Skip, you NEED to move out here somewheres.<~~Agreed
Ray this is true i know my tanks have some very serious issues that need to be addressed....my port tank leaks from the sending unit when tank is full....my starbord tank leaks from the fill hose that goes to the tank, and also has a pin hole somewhere in the bottom...tanks are coming out this weekend when the weather lets up, and i need to find a welder....it is true that the tanks definately vent differently...my port tank loses 2-3psi on the fuel pressure guage vs the starbord tank....my plan is to have the tanks rewelded and a new sending unit that will work with the guage, and new hoses and fuel fills...it will be inexpensive vs a human life, and save me some gas
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My cross over-balance hose-- what ever you call it is connected to the bottom of the tanks. It is a -12 AN braided hose. It is towards the front of the tanks though because the pump and such are in the way to make a nice loop so there are no up-hill travels. I cannot find any pics of the set up in the boat and it is undercover right now.
T.J.
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Just curious why no one is running a slosh box?
Take a bottom tap from each tank on put it to a tank (very similar to a puke tank) and pull the fuel from it with the fuel pump, it keeps a small amount of head pressure on the pump and almost eliminates the equal fuel level problem, we had two 24 gallon tanks in the beer can and had a setup like this, the beauty of it was you could put two fuel pumps on the surge tank and a switch in the dash to flip if one died...I really wish I had some pictures of it. :banghead:
As far as trying to replicate a tune on an engine, I highly recommend a diary, as things get changed, mark it down...
Some things we used to log;
-tongue weight (seems weird, but the engine would move to and fro on a regular basis to change the center of gravity)
-total weight full and empty of fuel also how it effected the COG.
-ignition timing, base and total (we had two distributors, one as a spare)
-jet sizes for different altitudes
-thermostat washer and temp it runs with it (we used a restrictor washer in the t-stat hole to control the water/oil temp ratio)
-compression numbers (checked at the end of each day)
-battery voltage while cranking (seems odd, but will point to a problem if it changes)
-header outlet temp at WOT (had an infra red thermometer in the boat at all times)
-oil pressure and temp at speed and idle
-spark plug gap and heat range (seems dumb, but when three or four people work on the boat, it good info)
-WOT RPM (you would be surprised how much this can fluctuate)
-cooling water pressure in the block (almost 15# every time we checked it)
-carburetor spacer (we would run from 3/4" all the way to 1 1/2")
-timing set indexing (another OCD thing :screwy:)
I am sure there are more, but you get the idea....
We marked everything with wrecking yard paint pens, we could literally change the distributor with a 9/16" wrench and not have to time it.... :thumbup:
Two fuel pumps, two ignition boxes, two starter motors, two batteries.....You can't win a race if it don't start.. :banghead:
GT
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Gt
Thanks for the info, My and most efi's do most of that stuff already. Ive been data logging to set my tune witch means My ecu will record all the data of a run or 10 to 20 mins of driving. Then I play it back after words and see how much the ecu is correcting the tune and then I change what is needed like adding or removing fuel to the map, timing, injector pulse width and many other settings. The data logger records the oil pressure, water temp, air temp, elevation, egt,( exhaust gas temp) kpa (percent of load on motor), manifold air pressure, Injector pulse width, timing,voltage, fuel prussure, And many more. what I do is make small changes at a time, make a pass and whether it runs better or worse I change what needs to be. And I save all tunes that run better to a flash drive in case I need to go back for some reason. This is a longer way of tuning but the end result is learning every little thing about efi and will eventually have a perfect tune over time = a hand full of trips to a local lake. also Learning about it and doing it with my brother is a bonus because we can make changes on the fly at any time instead of paying someone else to tune it, and being stuck if something needs to be changed real quick on the water. I installed a really nice invertor to be able to use a laptop on the water at any giving time. It is hard to tune tho skippin across a lake at 90 mph with a lap top on the bow or lap.I always run the same plugs to end confusion and carry an extra set every where the boat goes. they have to be a non extended reach plug which I found to be hard to find on the river. My pistons will slap the gap shut on normal pulgs witch I found out the hard way in needles which had not 1 plug that would work in the whole one horse town. Frequent compression checks are a great idea and will add that to my list of things to check and, I also want to run a inline water pressure gauge even though my boats cooling system couldn't be better. its good to know as much information about your motor as possible for many reasions, mostly for me to go faster ;)
TJs
I checked my altenater on sat and sure enough it was shot. I dropped it off at auto electric rebuilder's, a great family business with great prices. He said it was a 61 amp and he rebuilding it to 110 amp. So that eliminates one problem. After some serious thinking and drinking and staring at my boat over the weekend And reading some more post Ive decided to go the same route you did.I found some room in the rear sides of the tanks to run a cross over hose.This is going to be a huge pain the the ass since we all know how hard it is to remove the fuel tanks. I think I'm going to go with a -18 or - 20, I figure the bigger the hose the faster it will balance out. I was also thinking to run a t in fitting in the middle to use ig I need to siphon the tanks at the end of the season or some other reason that may present itself. I am Not looking forward to this job :banghead: I just had these things out. At least if I do it know It will be done before it gets hot and river season. I also need to reseal the whole pump, its been about 7 years since it was sealed last and it leaks pretty bad. If I get these things handled Ill have a turn key race boat ready for the up coming season.
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Ok guys, I spent all weekend pulling the tanks out and welding in the bungs for my balance hose. I ended up welding -20 bungs on the rear sides of the tanks. I got them within a quarter inch from the bottom, hopefully its good enough. Everything is done and ready to re assemble. I just wanted to know if there is anything else I can do while my tanks are out. I really don't want to ever remove them again so anything you experts can think of, your advice will be much appreciated. Thanks Jimmy...
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Post some pics of your tank job.
T.J.
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learnig to post pics bare with me.
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more
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lots of pics
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post the rest of the tanks tom. need to take some more.
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random
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first run
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too many yet?
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the tuner. aka my brother.
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My other money pit, well another one of em. glamis t day 09
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Looks good, I guess the balance hose worked.
How did you pressure test the welds. Also, I hope you guys had no wind when TIG welding outside. Here is how I pressure tested mine. I made a plastic plug for the filler and then used the vent fitting to add some air to it, about 5psi max, then sprayed soapy water on all the welds and fittings.
T.J.
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tjsperformance.com%2Fimages%2Ffuel_pickup20.jpg&hash=6363e225f374b5921f236d8aa60335737192f25e)
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Christ, put TJS on the case, problem solved........but now is there a translator in the house so we know how he fixed it, or what the hell he's talking about?????
Dude, just bad ass stuff!
Ray
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TJS
My brother is a great welder and always welds outside. He actually built- fabed that whole white sand car in those pics for my dad. that being said I pressure checked the welds after your post and did find a small leak in one of the bungs so thank you for asking me. Its a very minor leak so ill have him fix it tom. I filled the tanks with water and put about 50 to 75 psi more of water from to tanks. I also capped off the tanks and hooked up the balance hose and filled one side with the hose on full blast. it balanced perfect and fast. Then I un capped the tank that draws the most fuel and drained them on the one side to see how low the other tank would empty. It did well. It drained all but about a quarter inch worth. when I pick up the other side a tad and it drained the rest so I think it will will work perfect in the water. I have a few more pics to post of what i just explained Ill post em tonight. I still have a hand full of stuff to do b 4 i re install the fuel tanks but I should have it done by sunday. I'm gonna run 2 vent lines from the tanks to a catch can mounted on the side of the boat next to the sea strainer and put on some sealed or no vented caps. I also need to seal parts of my pump cause its leaking a bit. I'm also going to add a second bung on my exhaust for a second egt. I'm going to buy a digital egt read out for live running to help dial my tune. I wouldn't normally do this but I need it for 3 other projects, 2 sand cars, one with halltec and one with electromotive and a 69 camaro with an excel efi. were swithching them over to E 85.. I'm also going to throw in a new billige pump, mine crapped out on me. I'm also going to install a third battery seperate from the other two strictly for my sterio. I'm doing this so I can listen to my sterio and not run down the battery's that power the starter and msd. basically I can float and completly run the bat down like a few hours and the boat will fire rite up. then recharge at nite. Then install the new alternater. I think that's it. Thank you for your post TJS.. I always look forward hearing your advice, along with everyone else on this site.
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UPDATE!
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Tis is taking forever
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I did some glass work and installed new non vented fuel fills. Mounted a breather canister for the fuel vents, 2 -8 fuel lines to vent for each tank. New fuel sending unit, new billige pump. sealed the pump up with silicone while everything was out of the way. added a second 02 sensor. Just got a new alternater high 110 amp. should have it all finished up this weekend.
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sorry there not really in order but you get the idea.
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UPDATE!
Now were talkin. This is basically how I have mine. The cool thing is when you pull up to a gas pump you only have to stick the nozzle in one tank and they both fill. The dudes at the gas station ask me what about the other tank. I tell them, nope all set. O0
T.J.
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Ok, so I got both tanks back in And this cross over thingy done. Also added a vent canister for the fuel tanks to vent from and new non vented fuel fills. cleaned up some of the wiring behind the tanks. Touched up the hull with the left over resin. sealed up the pump while I could get to it with silicone. I still need to throw in the new alt, billilge, and the second 02 bung in the exhuast, but those are a cake walk compared to what I just did. Wow all that after the first test run. I hope that the second test goes smoother. here are the pics.
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geese!