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GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Thermostat... Yay, Nay???
« on: May 15, 2013, 09:49:18 PM »
OK bitches....

Here we go again.    :o

This is a quote from RockyCapone from another thread, I wont say which one.   ;D  I am going to state facts to try to answer these question on my own thread as to not make people get sad, pick up their ball and go home....  ::)

How long have you been running the same Tstat? When I was a tech/grease monkey at Toyota years ago all the factory Tstats had a, I guess you could say purge holes in them, made bleeding the coolant system almost a breeze unless you had a original MR2 or that abortion of a van, do you have a purge hole?

A typical marine thermostat has a lower temperature setting (typically either 140*F or 160*F, they also have a hole in them with a small check valve allowing water to leave the controlled side of the stat.

I really see both sides but I cant wrap my head around a tstat with gritty non-lubricated water, and as far water temp Im not sure I buy too cold a water when its more of a too cold of an oil problem.

Your going to need to help me with this one.... Oil temperature is not really effected by water temp, it is, but it's slight.

I will never use a valve before the water dumps thats nuts to me.

It is nuts, your right not to do it.

A gate valve for what we are using it for I dont see a problem either, we are so far from the max working pressure. As long as you reach optimum oil temperature is most important to me.

Again, just to restate, water temperature and oil temperatures are barely related.

I would also venture to say all the guys running aluminum heads would be the first to say they warped them from starting and stopping in the 55*F river water. Can anyone verify this? Id like to research and see what all the jetskis and waverunners use Im interested.

Jet skis (talking two stroke type) run extremely cold, heads seldom warp because of the numerous head bolts on a flat head.

All in all, to me, jet boats are the hotrods of the lake and I dont think there is such a thing as set it and forget it with any aspect of the boat except the trailers-they stay the same. Or do they? Lol. Great topic here.

You would be shocked at how set it and forget it they can be....

Last thought here. If you run a tstat and it closes isnt there more of a chance that anything above the stat will develop and an air pocket vs no tstat that forces water so fast there is no chance of air pockets or hot spots?

This is debatable, personally I don't think it matters too much either way, but with the stat kits, they want you to run the water from the pump unrestricted and IMHO with that kind of flows at WOT the water bubbles or "aerates" way more than otherwise... This I would think causes invisible issues over the long term.


And lets say the tstat fails closed and they do, now you have a huge hot spot somewhere in the engine, yes? But in a car its a sealed system purged of all air so a lockex tstat will ruin your day but might not hurt the engine just short of getting hot.

They definitely do fail, it is a moving part. And yes, when they do, the engine burns all the paint off and the temperature gauge will really not read hot unless it is located in the correct spot, some people insist on installing them in the stat housing and they will not read hot when sh!t goes bad.....


I say all this in my own words and just am sorta thinking out loud, I am not challenging anyone I too am just interested in learning more.
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I take everything as a challenge... :sly:
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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Ray

GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Thermostat... Yay, Nay???
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2013, 10:14:45 PM »
Sorry, just finished a Sonic Cherry Limeaide and had to whiz...

So lets examine what we know works.

Thermostat kits do work. I cannot debate that they do make the temperature leaving the block the correct temperature.

Some Q and A (my thread, my opinions, if you are going to post opinions, back them up with actual proof or at least plausible theory);

Q. When the thermostat is controlling the temperature of the leaving water, how is it doing this?

A. When the engine is cold, the stat remains closed with only a very small amount of water flowing through a bypass hole, as the water warms up, the stat begins to open and control to it's temperature rating. Meanwhile, all the water coming from the jet pump auxilliary port is running through the dump lines and/or header valve.

Q. What is wrong with the above method?

A. While the temperature of the water leaving the block is being controlled, the water flow/pressure (especially at idle) is very low, this can create the opposite end of the engine to create steam. There is no actual water flow within the crankcase to keep a homogeneous temperature, there will be hot and cold spots in areas you can not control...

Q. What can be done to correct this?

A. The best method would be to utilize a block mounted automotive type water pump to circulate the cooling water at engine speed. This has been done for decades and is a proven system. (Look at virtually any stern drive engine).

Q. Do I need a thermostat kit?

A. The quick answer is maybe..... The right answer is probably not, the politically correct answer is "depends"... The ONLY time I recommend utilizing a thermostat kit is when the engine has been machined using automotive specifications on the cylinders and crank. I do not however, like the stat kits that the after market sells. I would recommend the above block mounted pump and a thermostat kit form the stern drive OEM (Mercruiser, OMC, Volvo etc...).

Q. Can I control temperature (and for that matter pressure) with the old stand by POS valve and properly sized hoses?

A. You can, but...... Everything needs to be set up properly, there is some adjustability, but for all intensive purposes this should be a one time frustration. More on this in another post to this thread........

GT

  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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Ray

GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Thermostat... Yay, Nay???
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2013, 11:03:45 PM »
So now lets look at why the way the factory set them up works and is acceptable...

The throttling valve off the pump (normally a 3/4" gate valve on the 3/8" auxiliary water port found on the Berkeley style pump) acts like a FLOW regulator, do not confuse this with pressure, different animal all together.

Because flow is limited, so will the pressure if the system is open on the other end, this is where the debate always gets out of hand. This is the first order of business takes place, this adjustment is crucial for the system to work properly.

Here is the confusing part.... I broke it up into three parts.

1. With OT headers.... The dump line needs to be properly sized, there is a formula I posted in another thread to remain nameless.. here is that formula;

Use 12.8 BTU's per min, per HP  (12.8BTU's/min/HP) for gasoline engines.

So, 500 HP X 12.8 btu's X 60 minutes = 384000 BTUH.

Here is a cool little formula..    BTUH= Delta T (F) X GPM X 500  (whereas the 500 is the specific heat of water [1] times the weight of water [8.33#/gal.] times 60 [minutes in an hour]).

So that 500 HP motor needs to cool 348000 BTU's worth of heat (for the most part 1/3 of the heat generated by the fuel).

So lets say you want the motor to run at 130*F.

The lake you mostly run in is approx 60*F.... So now what?    well, 348000 = 70*F delta t X GPM X 500... Anyone?

You need approximately 11 GPM of lake water to keep her cool at 500 HP, much less at idle, or 10 HP...


To flow 11 GPM you will need approximately a 3/8" inside diameter dump line at 18 PSI. You can check that here   http://www.tlv.com/global/TI/calculator/water-flow-rate-through-orifice.html

Why 18 PSI? the added pressure will keep steam pockets from forming and give the engine the proper range of pressure to get the needed flows between idle and WFO... This can be varied, but 18PSI seems to be the magic number.

So here is the ideal set up.

Balancing valve of your choice (3/4" multi turn gate, 1/2" ball valve, 1/2" globe valve etc.) to a tee to the two ports on the front of the block or to the block drain holes (BBC) after they have been drilled and re tapped to 3/8" FPT, from the t-stat housing (sans stat) to two lines, one line overboard to your properly side sized through hull fitting, the other line to the header control valve (whether it is manual or a Bassett tee or similar). Done... Yes, that's it.

I do not like to run header water straight from the pump, I like warm water to go to the headers, I feel you have less of a chance of jacking crap up with 120*F+/- water than you do with 50*F+/-.. I may just be goofey that way though. ALL that water needs to convert to steam before it leaves the pipe, with the warm water, it is already more than half way there.

You get the boat in the water with the gate valve open three or four turns, once fired off, rev the engine to appox 1500 RPM (gotta have a good tach for this) this is easier with two people, the boat does not need to be moving, I normally install a Come-A-Long on the front eye of the boat to the trailer for this part. Once the engine is running at 1500, adjust the control valve toward open until the headers begin to mist, then stop, lock down the packing nut (where applicable) and shut down the motor, the procedure is complete.

Typically the boat will run about 150*F to 170*F while idling, then drop to about 120* to 140* while "on it".

Too warm? Larger orifice in the dump line, too cold? (Only worry about this at idle) then drop the dump line size a tad... Just be sure to repeat the procedure for the header cut in point.

Run a tie wrap through the valve to ensure it stays put (either by natural vibration or a long fingered douche bag) and go have fun...

The best part about this system is that there are literally NO moving parts.... What's going to break? What is there to maintain?

The second best part is that your can replace the entire system for about $130 including the control tee....  :thumbup:


2. Dry headers.

The same process and piping, but you will need a pressure gauge to get it set up right and that will be done at WFO, not 1500RPM., absolutely no reason you cant put a Bassett tee on the motor, even temporarily to get her dialed in, just don't leave it there open, it will move too much water and be stupid cold. You can fine tune the gat to get the desired temps.... Pressure should not become an issue if the above is followed.

Too tired to do logs right now... maybe later..

Have fun.

Disclaimer; This information was off the top of my head and I just worked a 10 hour day, so there may be some revisions, but I will make those revisions in bold and strike through the boo boos..

GT
« Last Edit: May 15, 2013, 11:30:09 PM by GT Jets »
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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Ray

jyeager

  • Karma: +62/-0
Re: Thermostat... Yay, Nay???
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2013, 11:09:13 PM »
I don't run one. It stays at 160 170 all day long regardless of what iam doing. -8 in and two -10 out. Same set up in my southwind 18. With 625hp.
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  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Thermostat... Yay, Nay???
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2013, 11:17:56 PM »
I don't run one. It stays at 160 170 all day long regardless of what iam doing. -8 in and two -10 out. Same set up in my southwind 18. With 625hp.


I am just pointing it out because I want to keep the facts on the top of the pile, hose sizes, (with the lengths we typically see), are nearly irrelevant for the most part, as long as the hoses will support the flow and the fitting diameters are larger than the dump line as far as inside diameter.

Your system sounds dialed in, I wouldn't mind seeing it just a bit cooler though, brackish waters tend to "scale out" or "crystallize" at anything above 160*F or so... Probably not going to be an issue if it has not already... Ever get stinky swamp water out of the engine when you run it on a hose after being at the lake? This is a sulfur like smell and is an indication of cooking the cooties so to speak...

Just for documentation purposes, do you know what size dump line(s) you have, do you mind sharing?

Thanks!

GT
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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Ray

jyeager

  • Karma: +62/-0
Re: Thermostat... Yay, Nay???
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2013, 11:30:25 PM »
I've ran both of my southwinds this way. Ball valve to Pressure relief valve. Then -8 in and two -10 dumps out. Works great. It runs a bit cooler at WOT now that I think about it. Like 150 or lower
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  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Thermostat... Yay, Nay???
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2013, 11:39:12 PM »
Something I forgot to mention... You can move so much water through the block that the velocity will not pick up much heat, thus making the engine run warmer than you think.

Just food for thought..

GT
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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Ray

jet fever

  • Karma: +7/-2
Re: Thermostat... Yay, Nay???
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2013, 11:53:23 PM »
We killed this so bad.  I'm in the garage copying my twin cam.  I'm going Air Cooled. 

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GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Thermostat... Yay, Nay???
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2013, 11:57:55 PM »
We killed this so bad.  I'm in the garage copying my twin cam.  I'm going Air Cooled. 

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My old fishing jet had two heater cores from a Cadillac Eldorado with a bilge blower blowing through them under the dash for creature comfort, Does it count?  >:D

GT
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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Ray

jet fever

  • Karma: +7/-2
Re: Thermostat... Yay, Nay???
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2013, 12:02:26 AM »
GT lets let it go Ill be one of the few morons running a Tstat and Regulator with relief off the pump.  We went over it left right top to bottom.

ATT:  Just run a gate off the pump

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jet fever

  • Karma: +7/-2
Re: Thermostat... Yay, Nay???
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2013, 12:03:47 AM »
No that's some red neck hillbilly stuff.  I mean I dig it but SoCal boys ain't ready for that

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GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Thermostat... Yay, Nay???
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2013, 12:09:39 AM »
GT lets let it go Ill be one of the few morons running a Tstat and Regulator with relief off the pump.  We went over it left right top to bottom.

ATT:  Just run a gate off the pump

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You misunderstand the entire thread, this is just for the guys who want to know the "how" when making a decision to go either way, I am not shutting down the t-stat theory, if you think this is for your benefit, you really need to get over yourself...  ;)

You seem to be one of those guys that think their way is the only way, I am here to show that there are many ways... Just starting with the simplest first, nothing but constructive.

This is continuation school my friends...  :thumbup:


And what is this redneck stuff you speak of?

Besides, I roll backwoods style...  8)

GT
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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Ray

jet fever

  • Karma: +7/-2
Re: Thermostat... Yay, Nay???
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2013, 12:27:14 AM »
Pretty fuckin sure u tried to shut it down on that other thread every way u could.  Now u wanna chat about it. Did u change your mind.  You told me like 9 times u want your motor as cold as could be. I think u wanna tell everyone why they are wrong and tell them your so called facts just to try to disprove their thoughts.  I can't believe u have the nerve to start a thread about it

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jet fever

  • Karma: +7/-2
Re: Thermostat... Yay, Nay???
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2013, 12:29:08 AM »
As far as your backwoods style I was meaning to tell u "You got a perty mouth" who knows it just might be good for something

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GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Thermostat... Yay, Nay???
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2013, 12:58:01 AM »
Pretty fuckin sure u tried to shut it down on that other thread every way u could.  Now u wanna chat about it. Did u change your mind.  You told me like 9 times u want your motor as cold as could be. I think u wanna tell everyone why they are wrong and tell them your so called facts just to try to disprove their thoughts.  I can't believe u have the nerve to start a thread about it

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Dude, seriously?  I didn't shut shit down, I was participating in a thread on a forum and trying to keep poo from being flung against the wall to see what stuck...

First, I never ever said "as cold as could be"... What I said was that it does not need to be 160*, there is a ginormous difference there..

And as for having a hard on for being right, I think you took that cake and ate the whole damn thing....

You need to go back and read the thread again, You missed the part where I had actual reasoning behind everything I posted. I had verifiable proof and what was not verifiable I made sure it was at least plausible...

Holy crap, did you and TIMINATOR have drinks together tonight or what?  ???

This thread was for those those who want to learn the difference... I am not selling any parts, making any money or gaining anything other than a pain in the ass from people like you.

For the record, Jim Coffey (Performance Jet) sounds like he has you buying parts daily.  Sorry, but I don't know what your problem is. I am just trying to help the little guy out there trying to get his/her cheap junk to run properly without getting all hung up on a bunch of unnecessary crap that makes slop count the same as skill...


With a little math (very little) you can make a cooling system that works twice as good as yours for less than a couple hundred bucks. Using like 8 hose clamps and have it done in an hours time.

Looking back on it, you think this thread is about you.   :screwy: :screwy:

In actuality, it was about the questions that were asked that NO ONE on here had the time or the knowledge to answer especially you. You DO NOT know how the systems are supposed to work so you have automated and expensive valves do it for you. Hot rodding is doing more with less, not nothing with a lot.

If you can't say something constructive, bring respect, or play nice, then I don't need you. (polite way of saying GFY)

Simple as that..

Shove off!. Now I know why I left the business, it was the people I had to convince that they were fed a complete line of inaccurate bullsh!t from some tool trying to sell a bunch of crap.

GT



« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 01:14:48 AM by GT Jets »
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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Ray

SoCalPSD

  • Karma: +4/-0
Re: Thermostat... Yay, Nay???
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2013, 07:20:37 AM »
Alright let's quit beating around the bush and just settle this, I'm an honest 7inches, 7 1/2 with my thumb jammed up my a$$
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In my best "grandad" voice with a cigarette hanging out of my mouth....  "if a day goes by and you learn nothing, I hope like hell you got a lot of sleep".... :thumbup:

GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Thermostat... Yay, Nay???
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2013, 07:23:51 AM »
Alright let's quit beating around the bush and just settle this, I'm an honest 7inches, 7 1/2 with my thumb jammed up my a$$

I'm am honest eight if I measure from the anus forward to just past the tip.

:o

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« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 11:27:17 PM by GT Jets »
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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muffbro

  • Karma: +3/-0
Re: Thermostat... Yay, Nay???
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2013, 08:06:29 AM »
I'm am honest eight of I measure from the anus forward to just past the tip.

:o

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The only way I could get close to that would be to fold it in half.......... >:D        :screwy:          :sly:      ::)
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I always wanted to be somebody...

I guess I should have been more specific.

GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Thermostat... Yay, Nay???
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2013, 08:28:03 AM »
The only way I could get close to that would be to fold it in half.......... >:D        :screwy:          :sly:      ::)

What good is a 16 inch penis you can bend in half?

Worthless as a bag of dog barf.

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  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
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Ray

IRRebel

  • Karma: +16/-0
Re: Thermostat... Yay, Nay???
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2013, 08:30:56 AM »
Wow, did I jump into the wrong hot tub? And an attempt to get the thread back on the track I think it was on.......

I agree with the idea of a thermostat. My twin jet was set up with them on twin 460's. But you have to have a bypass in there in the meantime during warm up.

I cannot say whether it promotes hotter or more consistent temps though. and that is what we are really after. Even at 160* as Glenn said, engine wear is increased by what, 1000% or so? These engines are designed to operate at 195* and change, and we run them, routineley (sp) at 100* or less in some cases.

Problem with a thermostat is it will rarely to never get a chance to open even here in the desert, I can't imagine it being worthwhile anywhere else. Closed cooling, kewl! And my twin jet is gonna have that! But a regular jet, ski boat, whatever, why bother? Have the engine built with much looser clearances, pay for the oil and fuel you lose, and be done with it!   :sly: Not like you drive the thing to work everyday or anything..........

Ray
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"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways totally worn out shouting 'Holy Shit what a ride!"---Crewcheif22 AKA Keith

muffbro

  • Karma: +3/-0
Re: Thermostat... Yay, Nay???
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2013, 08:32:07 AM »
What good is a 16 inch penis you can bend in half?

Worthless as a bag of dog barf.

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LOL..........       I'd be in da movies if I actually had  a unit THAT size.....

As for Me???  My tongue is probably longer .   That's probably why my GF has stayed all these years.....
  • Boat #1: 1985 Bahner  -  19' 11"
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I guess I should have been more specific.

mash on it

  • Karma: +29/-0
Re: Thermostat... Yay, Nay???
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2013, 08:51:58 AM »
Quote from GT Jets:
"I do not like to run header water straight from the pump, I like warm water to go to the headers, I feel you have less of a chance of jacking crap up with 120*F+/- water than you do with 50*F+/-.. I may just be goofey that way though. ALL that water needs to convert to steam before it leaves the pipe, with the warm water, it is already more than half way there."

GT,
This is the way I did mine, 'T' before the gate valve for headers, However, I'm not running huge lift/duration or H.P., and using a 1/4" line for the headers, valve @ drivers seat, Potential problems?

Dan'l
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CJ/RR 212...under construction  "Pistol Annie"

GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Thermostat... Yay, Nay???
« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2013, 09:13:54 AM »
Quote from GT Jets:
"I do not like to run header water straight from the pump, I like warm water to go to the headers, I feel you have less of a chance of jacking crap up with 120*F+/- water than you do with 50*F+/-.. I may just be goofey that way though. ALL that water needs to convert to steam before it leaves the pipe, with the warm water, it is already more than half way there."

GT,
This is the way I did mine, 'T' before the gate valve for headers, However, I'm not running huge lift/duration or H.P., and using a 1/4" line for the headers, valve @ drivers seat, Potential problems?

Dan'l

Gonna be straight up with you here...

I hate it. The headers need very little flow to keep cool. With that amount of potential pressure it would be very easy to have things go south in a virtual heartbeat.

Steam will carry more heat out of the headers than water, so I guess you could say less is more in this case. I am on a phone right now and won't get into the details right now, but there are a few of you guys thinking of calling BS on this. (you know who you are)...

Camshaft duration and lift has a little to do with it, but in all honesty it has more to do with lobe centers (aka, overlap) than anything else. Contrary to what had been said in other threads.

Think about deceleration, it is when the engine is slowing down that the reversion issues can rear its ugly head, that and at idle... What does a car do when you have an exhaust leak and you down shift? It backfires right?  Why? Because it sucks cold air into the head and auto ignites unspent fuel in the exhaust system. I bet many of you did not know that......

I can expand more on this if needed.

In short, I would run warm, flow regulated water to the headers. I have little proof on the warm part, but have a theory.  ;)

Trying to keep out diplomatic..

And lol Ray...

Sent from my SGH-T989 using SoCalJetBoats mobile app

  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

IRRebel

  • Karma: +16/-0
Re: Thermostat... Yay, Nay???
« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2013, 10:07:08 AM »
Well, I'm gonna expand here a little bit.

Yeah, everybody likes to keep their brand new Chrome $hit clean and shiney. Not gonna happen in the real world. We used to wrap a 10 gauge copper wire around our motorcycle pipes and that did, kinda, work, but its all BS.

Lets face it, and be honest, NOTHING says "HP" more than blued up headers or zoomies.

Now, as far was what GT was after in controlling engine temps with this thread, had nothing to do with headers. It's engines in general, and he's right! The flow to the headers matters not, it's the engine temps we want to maintain or increase.........

Wanna save your boat engine? increase and control the temp......simple fact.....

Ray
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"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways totally worn out shouting 'Holy Shit what a ride!"---Crewcheif22 AKA Keith

SoCalPSD

  • Karma: +4/-0
Re: Thermostat... Yay, Nay???
« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2013, 10:16:25 AM »
LOL..........       I'd be in da movies if I actually had  a unit THAT size.....

As for Me???  My tongue is probably longer .   That's probably why my GF has stayed all these years.....


Yah right the movies....pffffft more like the circus......freak

And maybe she feels bad for you? Guilt is an amazing yet miserable thing
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In my best "grandad" voice with a cigarette hanging out of my mouth....  "if a day goes by and you learn nothing, I hope like hell you got a lot of sleep".... :thumbup:

 


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