SoCal Jet Boats
Tech Talk => Jet Pumps => Topic started by: steves86ta on March 17, 2016, 10:42:10 AM
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another opinion thread. im sure you all are tired of them
My rogers i do not have a diverter, instead i have a full AT droop and a set of wedges.
I needed some gaskets and cant get out of work to go get them so i asked my GF if she would run to GS marine and get htem since Eddie marine was out of stock.
She went down there and i called Greg before hand making sure he had them. He asked that i have her bring the nozzle for the new o ring since there are quite a few of them. I said sure.
Since im at work i couldnt pull it apart for her so she had to take the nozzle/droop assembled down there.
He highly recommended changing from the droop to a HPH nozzle. Said my droop was like a shovel in the water.
Being i have a ride plate, i dont see that really being that true? But further me not having a diverter i figure the droop really helps with lift?
What would/are the benefits of changing to a straight snoot like the HPH? Especially in my situation without a diverter? I really think it would hurt more than help. Maybe he was assuming i didnt have a ride plate?
He even sent her home with a flyer. Just trying to sell something? Or would i possibly really see a gain? The boat rides pretty damn nicely now.
Further, back when the boat was built in 2006 by GS marine, they had it setup with a full droop. I'd like to hear everyones opinion
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9 times out of 10 the full droop will try to lift too much boat out of the water causing the porpoise of death. If you have the HP and the boat rides and works well now, I am of the "leave well enough alone" mantra.
That being said, if Shoe recommends the HPH, let him back it up. Tell him you'll try it, but if you are unsatisfied, he takes it back with only a 10% restock charge.
I think what he is going to tell is, you will need a Diverter once you put the HPH on and try to get you for another $600. This is my opinion only and based on facts whatsoever.
What Droop do you have?
Where does the bottom of the nozzle end up in relation to the keel line?
Where is your ride plate set up and what angle is the shoe to the keel?
GT
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Man, auto correct had its way with me, hopefully I fixed all the errors.
Sheeese.
GT
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9 times out of 10 the full droop will try to lift too much boat out of the water causing the porpoise of death. If you have the HP and the boat rises and works well now, I am of the "leave well enough alone" mantra.
That being said, if Shoe recommends the HPH, let him back it up. Tell him you'll try it, but if you are unsatisfied, he takes it back with only a 10% restock charge.
I think what he is going to tell is, you will need a Diverter once you put the HPH on and try to get you for another $600. This is my opinion only and based on facts whatsoever.
What Droop do you have?
Where does the bottom of the nozzle end up in relation to the keel line?
Where is your ride plate set up and what angle is the shoe to the keel?
GT
Thanks GT I tend to agree with you on most of the above. And figure the same with the HPH and needing a diverter later
As far as your questions,
What Droop do you have?
I have an AT Droop
Where does the bottom of the nozzle end up in relation to the keel line?
I've never measured it based off of the keel line, only the ride plate. It was about 1"-1.5" above the ride plate. Ill be putting it back together this weekend and can re-measure it
Where is your ride plate set up and what angle is the shoe to the keel?
Its a normal 1/4" plate, i believe 18" long i can re-measure. shoe, etc. I think its about 3.75* "up" from keel line. I dont have an angle finder to measure it, but it was at 4 degrees before the shim, i think its about a 1/8" shim.
I might grab an angle finder/reader so i can get accurate measurements
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Download "Clinometer" to your smart phone.
I use it all the time.
GT
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Pretty slick
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Pretty slick
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Can your set your own zero with it?
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Can your set your own zero with it?
For $.99. Otherwise just do some math.
GT
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For $.99. Otherwise just do some math.
GT
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.99 is well worth it. You don't know my math skills. To say they are bad, would be a gross understatement
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.99 is well worth it. You don't know my math skills. To say they are bad, would be a gross understatement
I've always been somewhat good at math.
Here is the app, it's free, they only charge for upgrades.
http://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.plaincode.clinometer
This is for Droid, I believe there is an Apple version as well.
Gt
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Pretty slick
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This might be a pretty stupid question, but im going to ask anyway....
Where do i measure?
Do i find the keel infront of the intake, 0 out my reader there then measure on the ride plate for example?
Also, on the ride plate, where do i measure? At the end of the plate where the cradle goes? The middle? the front?
Same question for the shoe?
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This might be a pretty stupid question, but im going to ask anyway....
Where do i measure?
Do i find the keel infront of the intake, 0 out my reader there then measure on the ride plate for example?
Also, on the ride plate, where do i measure? At the end of the plate where the cradle goes? The middle? the front?
Same question for the shoe?
Not really a stupid question.
For starters, I like to use a strake for getting keel angle. It's the most idiot proof.
The shoe should be flat so check that in reference to the angle you get from the keel/strake. You can always level the boat trailer to achieve "0" degrees. The ride plate would be angled "up" from the keel, so when you measure the plate, you may have to take an average, meaning the plates are not always flat. From what I have seen over the years is anywhere from 2° up to about 4° up seems to be a great starting point. By starting out at an extreme, the changes are more prominent.
If you have to have the plate way up (say in excess of 5°) I would say the shoe should be back cut, if nearly 0° works, I would say the shoe should be flat or mostly flat. (Also called straight cut).
Be sure to document your changes and small changes are best for the most part. You likely won't get it "right the first try".
While you're under there farting around, check the hull bottom for a hook, especially at the strakes.
Also, don't forget to take a gander at the loader and it's hardware.
GT
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Not really a stupid question.
For starters, I like to use a strake for getting keel angle. It's the most idiot proof.
The shoe should be flat so check that in reference to the angle you get from the keel/strake. You can always level the boat trailer to achieve "0" degrees. The ride plate would be angled "up" from the keel, so when you measure the plate, you may have to take an average, meaning the plates are not always flat. From what I have seen over the years is anywhere from 2° up to about 4° up seems to be a great starting point. By starting out at an extreme, the changes are more prominent.
If you have to have the plate way up (say in excess of 5°) I would say the shoe should be back cut, if nearly 0° works, I would say the shoe should be flat or may flat. (Also called straight cut).
Be sure to document your changes and small changes ate best for the most part. You likely won't get it "right the first try".
While you're under there farting around, check the hull bottom for a hook, especially at the strakes.
Also, don't forget to take a gander at the loader and it's hardware.
GT
Thanks GT
I've crawled underneath it and checked it for hook, i dont see a whole lot of it there. Not bad by anymeans
The loader hardware is brand new.
Ill try the measuring this weekend
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Jmo, leave the droop and throw a dam diverter on the thing already. I promise it will help bud 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
The only gain I can see with the HPN combo is rasing the thrust line.
Sent from McIntyre Park
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Jmo, leave the droop and throw a dam diverter on the thing already. I promise it will help bud 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
The only gain I can see with the HPN combo is rasing the thrust line.
Sent from McIntyre Park
That's the plan
The reason I was asking was because I felt like gs was just trying to shovel parts
Also to learn the differences
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I wonder if the HPH would help the porpoise in my boat. Right around cruising speed it starts to bounce and that's with no trim. I feel like the droop gives mine way too much lift. I know all boats are different, but every other Bonneville Classic I've seen has a droop on it. One thing I noticed is when I had people in the bow (more weight) the porpoising wasn't nearly as bad.
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Put some down wedge in it? You can pick up the plastic wedges pretty darn cheap... Still might be able to have the best of both worlds if you play with some different wedges...
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Put some down wedge in it? You can pick up the plastic wedges pretty darn cheap... Still might be able to have the best of both worlds if you play with some different wedges...
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He has a Diverter, having a hard time processing what lowering the X dimension would do.
Ultimately I think a shorter droop would help you here.
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I wonder if the HPH would help the porpoise in my boat. Right around cruising speed it starts to bounce and that's with no trim. I feel like the droop gives mine way too much lift. I know all boats are different, but every other Bonneville Classic I've seen has a droop on it. One thing I noticed is when I had people in the bow (more weight) the porpoising wasn't nearly as bad.
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Classic symptom of too low of X dimension for your set up. Where is your plate at?
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Was thinking he could have a little more down adjustment on it to stop the bounce? But was just thinking out loud? I get myself in trouble doing that sometimes... 😎
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Classic symptom of too low of X dimension for your set up. Where is your plate at?
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3* up.
Here's a pic of the setup.
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Gt if he flipped that 3* up upside down wouldn't almost cancel out the droop? Don't most droops have like 4* built into them? Again just thinking out loud... 😎
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Gt if he flipped that 3* up upside down wouldn't almost cancel out the droop? Don't most droops have like 4* built into them? Again just thinking out loud... 😎
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Seriously, dont piss GT off with wacky setups. Lol
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3* up.
Here's a pic of the setup.
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Gonna throw this at you.
You need a later model Diverter. I am guaranteeing you 2-3mph and a better ride.
As an experiment, throw a straight edge across the keel at the pump and tell me what you see.
GT
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One more thing, what the hell is with that steering tiller bolt spacer thingomobob? Lose that spacer and replace the bolt with a shorter one. To get the cable to move at the tube, replace the rubber insert and loosen it up.
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Gt if he flipped that 3* up upside down wouldn't almost cancel out the droop? Don't most droops have like 4* built into them? Again just thinking out loud... 😎
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While I see where you are going, it's two dimensional, you can't have one action not create another reaction.
What he has going on is a horrible design nozzle that not only offers no ride area, but an absolute ass load of parasitic drag. The newer Diverter has a flat bottom that acts as additional ride surface.
GT
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Seriously, dont piss GT off with wacky setups. Lol
I don't get pissed anymore, you fukkers have made me numb to all things.
;D
GT
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You da man gt! Like I was saying my small redneck brain was just thinking out loud...
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One more thing, what the hell is with that steering tiller bolt spacer thingomobob? Lose that spacer and replace the bolt with a shorter one. To get the cable to move at the tube, replace the rubber insert and loosen it up.
http://www.placediverter.com/proddetail.php?prod=place_diverter_steering_extension_kit
I put the spacer in there because the steering was at a gnarly angle coming through the steering tube.
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Gonna throw this at you.
You need a later model Diverter. I am guaranteeing you 2-3mph and a better ride.
As an experiment, throw a straight edge across the keel at the pump and tell me what you see.
GT
A new style diverter is on the list, I didn't realize this one was affecting performance so much. Between a stock nozzle housing and the HPH, do you think I'd see a difference in performance?
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I put a real straight snoot on which has a 4* pin. Had a porpoising issue at middle to wot before. Cleaned up my launch, cruising as well wot...very stable. Having the 9 gives me an extra 2" further out. I can tell the difference from the shorter modified split C I had on prior. I might ad a bowl to snoot 2" spacer to achieve further exit.
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This is my setup. Curious how the new powerplant will work with it. I funking love it at 75% to WOT, it frees up like I am floating. Ya!
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This is my setup. Curious how the new powerplant will work with it. I funking love it at 75% to WOT, it frees up like I am floating. Ya!
This is basically the same as my setup. I have a Dominator Bowl, 8 degree adjustable wedges, set at 3 degrees up, and an AT droop with a regular nozzle
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This is basically the same as my setup. I have a Dominator Bowl, 8 degree adjustable wedges, set at 3 degrees up, and an AT droop with a regular nozzle
See! You are a badass like me!
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See! You are a badass like me!
Never... I could never even be compared to the badassery that is fordlover
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This is my setup. Curious how the new powerplant will work with it. I funking love it at 75% to WOT, it frees up like I am floating. Ya!
That rideplate looks short. Daycruiser has a 12" rideplate, measured from transom, to the neck of JC bowl, and the bowrider is 14", ends beyond the split of the split bowl.
The angle on that plate seems a bit high, too.
Does the diverter drag in the wash with the droop?
Dan'l
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Not sure. It rode good. But ill check back in a month or two when the new badass blue oval gets dropped, tuned and the badassness starts flowing out
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Here's what I'm dragging around behind mine? We gonna see how it likes 850hp in a few days...
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JMHO, that nozzle may hurt your end performance. Beautiful boat.
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Hey GT. I got a 20 ft open bow mod V Baker. Droop n ride plate. Would a straight do anything for me? I'm run 86.4 at 6200 with a bronze AB. Thanks for input.
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Hey GT. I got a 20 ft open bow mod V Baker. Droop n ride plate. Would a straight do anything for me? I'm run 86.4 at 6200 with a bronze AB. Thanks for input.
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In all honesty I'd be more inclined to recommend a full droop on a that hull. Do you get good lift or if it? By the sounds if it it rocks pretty good. The rudder is probably hurting you more than anything, not that I would take it off, it's just a small amount of parasitic drag.
Sounds like a stout build to me.
The best advice I can give to anyone is that you really don't know what is going to do until it's bolted to the boat. Trial and error works 100% of the time.
I would however be doing a disservice of I didn't say I thought it would hurt the end performance.
JMO
GT
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K cool lose rudder call it Good! Thank U Sir
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It's been several years since I experimented with PD's full droop & HPH on a Rogers Bonneville. I went to PD and talked with Tim about my set up at the time. Stock bottom running 750hp ish.
Full droop did not work well at all. Boat was all over the place, did not feel safe at full throttle.
HPH was the right nozzle for that application. Ran 93 on gps and always felt solid on the water.
Currently I've gone with what I think is the best of both worlds on my Daytona. 6" extension with the ability to wedge down in front and back up to get the thrust line height where the Daytona likes it and move it back as well. Driving down to B1 today to pick up new loader, going to get the experts opinion too. We'll see.
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I tried that just rode bow high n porpoised on me just at cruising speed.
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I tried that just rode bow high n porpoised on me just at cruising speed.
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When I was looking for the right nozzle angle I went up wedge until it porpoised then came back down. If compare mine to your pic I have 1 degree down wedge where you have up wedge. The other difference is I have a mini droop to your full droop. Bottom line is we both want the bottom pin on the droop 3/4" above the ride plate.
Side note - Chris at B1 doesn't like the extra hardware of the extension, I didn't think he would. He gave me really good advice on what I have. Big thanks to Chris at B1 Racing for taking the time to talk with me.
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I went n bought stainless bolts all different lengths because the studs I didn't care for. The bolt head is a much cleaner look. But I have just gone back to my droop no wedge n and my place Diverter.
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I went n bought stainless bolts all different lengths because the studs I didn't care for. The bolt head is a much cleaner look. But I have just gone back to my droop no wedge n and my place Diverter.
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Ironically, studs are almost twice as strong.
GT
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And I imagined bolts wouldn't bend with the wedges.
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And I imagined bolts wouldn't bend with the wedges.
That's actually the issue. Thread engagement is compromised. Mainly because of the side loads on the bolts.
When you screw in studs, they go in nice and straight, use red Loctite. Then when you install wedges, nozzles etc., the nut becomes the clamping force, completely leaving the threads in the aluminum un-disturbed.
Just facts, not trying to offend.
GT
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I used alignment washers for this reason. I only had enough to do the front. Need to buy more to do the back end since I wedged both ends. Kind of pricey $4.27 each set.
http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-washers/=11mxbs1 (http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-washers/=11mxbs1)
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The issue isn't really just the head. It's that the hole from the head end is not in alignment with the threaded end. Unless of course you slot the holes, which then weakens the apparatus.
I'm all about double drilled and studs.
To each their own. Not saying what's wrong or right, just a comfort level thing.
GT
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I went with studs, and with the wedges on, its kind of a PIA to get the droop on (double drilled)
I cant imagine bolts being able to grab threads easily and not stripping or cross threading. But again, im running more wedge than most
Man i really need a different nozzle
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All my studs bent. I left that out. Bolts didn't.
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All my studs bent. I left that out. Bolts didn't.
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That's the whole point again. Hold a straight edge across where the threads would be out to the head of the bolt.
You'll probably be shocked.
GT
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That's the whole point again. Hold a straight edge across where the threads would be out to the head of the bolt.
You'll probably be shocked.
GT
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yeah, but if hes not running a wedge anymore, then i think he should be fine no?
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yeah, but if hes not running a wedge anymore, then i think he should be fine no?
Then why would the studs bend?
Food for thought.
GT
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Then why would the studs bend?
Food for thought.
GT
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because:::
But I have just gone back to my droop no wedge n and my place Diverter.
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because:::
Lol.
Just for the record.
Studs are still stronger, the radial torque gets put on the stud, not a threaded aluminum hole.
Especially on something that can be removed and installed as often as a droop.
I see where you're going, but I'm a stubborn SOB.
LMAO.
GT
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Lol.
Just for the record.
Studs are still stronger, the radial torque gets put on the stud, not a threaded aluminum hole.
Especially on something that can be removed and installed as often as a droop.
I see where you're going, but I'm a stubborn SOB.
LMAO.
GT
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lmao
Back to the thread... I finally measured my rideplate, and if i did it correctly. Im right around 4*
I just now found out how to measure in tenth's of degrees. So i need to measure it again to get a more accurate reading.
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WOW, this thread has a wealth of information!
Just for the record if anyone cares. Place diverter lists their droop as having 8.5* wedge/lift built in! I always thought it was 3* - 4* like some of you. Good food for thought. Now i can see why so many are having to wedge them down.
Someone with some "pull" should tell them to make 2 versions, like 4* and 8*. Could it be just as simple as machining the pins different?