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steves86ta

  • Karma: +41/-0
explain jets to me
« on: July 18, 2016, 01:40:11 PM »
Can someone smarter than I am explain this to me?

I took quite a few GPS readings with my boat over the weekend. I never really checked out the cruise speed and stuff like that so i wanted to.

Heres what i learned with my Stock Berkeley C impeller

At a cruise of around 3500 rpm i am in the neighborhood of 35-37mph.
At 4k rpm i am right about 40-43mph.
At a WOT rpm of 4900 on 91 (higher on the race fuel for some reason) i saw 70 mph. On race fuel, i saw a max rpm of 5200 and a mph of 72.6 mph.

Heres what i dont understand....

Why is that last 1-1200 rpm worth damn near 30 mph? Is this because the pressures go up that much higher in that last 1000 rpm?

Im guessing my boat weighs in the 900-1200 pound range without running gear.

I rode in my friends boat, its a 19 Spectra. He has an AB impeller.

Without moving his diverter, it felt to launch harder. According to his tach he spins about 4800 RPM. On GPS he is at 50mph exactly.

The way i understand  jets, are the bigger the impeller, the more thrust with more rpm. I would expect his boat to be atleast closer to the speed i am with the sameish rpm and a bigger impeller.

GT, Flusher? Someone smarter than i am that can educate me on this? I dont think his boat weighs to much more than mine, it feels lighter moving it around on the beach
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GT Jets

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Re: explain jets to me
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2016, 02:08:21 PM »
The answer is going to piss you off.

All the lower numbers are very low hp. It's not until you get near WOT that any horsepower is being generated.

Your not spinning a prop that has a pretty good bite on the water,  you are squirting water at high pressure to create thrust. You could hold your boat back with a fairly small rope. Whereas the prop boat can't be held back as easily.

The thrust required to get the hull freed up from the drag of the water is on the higher horsepower,  it has zero to do with actual rpm.

Your understanding of impeller cut is 100% backward,  the C cut impeller is much smaller than an A. You can cut an A to a C, but not the other way around.

The more impeller,  the more HP it takes to spin.

The reason an impeller is "cut down" is to get the engine the ability to turn it's optimum rpm to get the most hp out of it.



In short,  rpm is not speed,  hydrodynamic drag, nozzle volume and velocity determine the speed.

And that Spectra bottom is like the cute chubby chick at the bar,  built for comfort,  not speed. Lol

GT
« Last Edit: July 18, 2016, 02:34:58 PM by GT Jets »
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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Ray

FordLover

  • Karma: +72/-0
Re: explain jets to me
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2016, 02:12:30 PM »
Good question and good answer from the both of yuhs. 

So in short, I drop a B or C in from the A I have now I then go faster?
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steves86ta

  • Karma: +41/-0
Re: explain jets to me
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2016, 02:15:02 PM »
The answer is going to piss you off.

All the lower numbers ate very low hp. It's not until you get near WOT that any horsepower is being generated.

Your not spinning a prop that has a pretty good bite on the water,  you are squirting water at high pressure to create thrust. You could hold your boat back with a fairly small rope. Whereas the prop boat can't be held back as easily.

The thrust required to get the hull freed up from the drag of the water is on the higher horsepower,  it has zero to do with actual rpm.

Your understanding of impeller cut is 100% backward,  the C cut impeller is much smaller than an A. You can cut an A to a C, but not the other way around.

The more impeller,  the more HP it takes to spin.

The reason an impeller is "cut down" is to get the engine the ability to turn it's optimum rpm to get the most hp out of it.



In short,  rpm is not speed,  hydrodynamic drag, nozzle volume and velocity determine the speed.

And that Spectra bottom is like the cute chubby chick at the bar,  built for comfort,  not speed. Lol

GT

Maybe i explained incorrectly. That is exactly how i understood the cuts. Basically i understood it as an AB impeller moving more water than a C impeller at the same RPM.

So if i understand correctly. Even though the top RPM is about the same, and he is running a "bigger" impeller i am creating more thrust?
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Re: explain jets to me
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2016, 02:16:33 PM »

So in short, I drop a B or C in from the A I have now I then go faster?

Nope, probably make more noise and break more parts.

JMO

GT
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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Ray

steves86ta

  • Karma: +41/-0
Re: explain jets to me
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2016, 02:17:45 PM »
Good question and good answer from the both of yuhs. 

So in short, I drop a B or C in from the A I have now I then go faster?

The way i understand it, and GT please correct me if i am wrong.

You could go to a B or C and gain some top end RPM. But you are moving less water so you may or may not go any faster.
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FordLover

  • Karma: +72/-0
Re: explain jets to me
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2016, 02:19:04 PM »
Nope, probably make more noise and break more parts.

JMO

GT

Damn it! My reading comprehension sucks.
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Re: explain jets to me
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2016, 02:19:16 PM »
The way i understand it, and GT please correct me if i am wrong.

You could go to a B or C and gain some top end RPM. But you are moving less water so you may or may not go any faster.

Correct,  RPM is not speed unless you are significantly increasing the amount of horsepower developed.

GT
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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Ray

steves86ta

  • Karma: +41/-0
Re: explain jets to me
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2016, 02:21:22 PM »
Correct,  RPM is not speed unless you are significantly increasing the amount of horsepower developed.

GT

Okay, so thats what i dont understand! Maybe im stupid

But my friend has a mostly stock 460 with an AB impeller. (larger than my C) and he is spinning 4800 rpm but is considerably slower than i am.

OR... and i just thought about this!

Maybe, because hes just running a stock rock grate maybe his pump is loading as hard as mine is with the loader. Hence letting it run more rpm than it really should?

OR
Maybe his tach isnt accurate
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Re: explain jets to me
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2016, 02:22:03 PM »
Maybe i explained incorrectly. That is exactly how i understood the cuts. Basically i understood it as an AB impeller moving more water than a C impeller at the same RPM.

So if i understand correctly. Even though the top RPM is about the same, and he is running a "bigger" impeller i am creating more thrust?

I would say absorbing more power, which could mean the same thing.

You can't get something for nothing,  so I always need to keep the verbiage plain.

Bottom design,  weight distribution and horsepower likely had more to do with the dramatic difference in to speed.

GT
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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steves86ta

  • Karma: +41/-0
Re: explain jets to me
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2016, 02:25:33 PM »
I would say absorbing more power, which could mean the same thing.

You can't get something for nothing,  so I always need to keep the verbiage plain.

Bottom design,  weight distribution and horsepower likely had more to do with the dramatic difference in to speed.

GT

Okay! Last question and then i promise im dropping it. I learned a lot

Im spraying pretty good out of my pivot holes for my reverse bucket (reverse cable broke) How bad is this effecting the nozzle pressure? I would htink it would have the effect of going to about an inch larger nozzle since the pins are what half inch or so?

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Re: explain jets to me
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2016, 02:29:09 PM »
Okay! Last question and then i promise im dropping it. I learned a lot

Im spraying pretty good out of my pivot holes for my reverse bucket (reverse cable broke) How bad is this effecting the nozzle pressure? I would htink it would have the effect of going to about an inch larger nozzle since the pins are what half inch or so?




Probably no where near as bad as you think.

Might make a 1 or 2% difference. Maybe.

Those holes are perpendicular to the flow of water and are only 3/4".

This is exactly why wine corks are the size they are.

Lmao
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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steves86ta

  • Karma: +41/-0
Re: explain jets to me
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2016, 02:31:28 PM »

Probably no where near as bad as you think.

Might make a 1 or 2% difference. Maybe.

Those holes are perpendicular to the flow of water and are only 3/4".

This is exactly why wine corks are the size they are.

Lmao

lmao i didnt even think about that. Oh well made for a funny looking video.

Thank you for your information, this is why we come here.  And the answer nowhere near pissed me off lol
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Re: explain jets to me
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2016, 02:35:59 PM »
lmao i didnt even think about that. Oh well made for a funny looking video.

Thank you for your information, this is why we come here.  And the answer nowhere near pissed me off lol

I was thinking piss you off in a face-palm sort of way.

Lol
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
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steves86ta

  • Karma: +41/-0
Re: explain jets to me
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2016, 02:37:30 PM »
I was thinking piss you off in a face-palm sort of way.

Lol

Now if you could figure out why this C impeller actually launches, vs the American Turbine B- i had that would cavitate like a mofo that would be great.
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Re: explain jets to me
« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2016, 02:39:07 PM »
Now if you could figure out why this C impeller actually launches, vs the American Turbine B- i had that would cavitate like a mofo that would be great.

Maybe wear ring clearance.

Just a WAG.
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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steves86ta

  • Karma: +41/-0
Re: explain jets to me
« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2016, 02:41:12 PM »
Maybe wear ring clearance.

Just a WAG.

The AT measured at .012 on each side if i remember correctly. Std wear ring, and its also a brand new impeller.

Front/rear clearance was machined down to be .030"

Even added a stuffer with .030" clearance and still cavitated like a mofo

Put the box stock berkeley in, took the stuffer out (wouldnt fit) and it works great
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steves86ta

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Re: explain jets to me
« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2016, 02:45:17 PM »
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FordLover

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Re: explain jets to me
« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2016, 03:30:40 PM »
Ok, swap out the aluminum A for a stainless A(and whatever else would need to be changed to make it work) does that improve performance? Better handles the FORD power?
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Re: explain jets to me
« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2016, 03:35:28 PM »
The AT measured at .012 on each side if i remember correctly. Std wear ring, and its also a brand new impeller.

Front/rear clearance was machined down to be .030"

Even added a stuffer with .030" clearance and still cavitated like a mofo

Put the box stock berkeley in, took the stuffer out (wouldnt fit) and it works great

The nose on that impeller is an obstruction causing gigantic amounts of aeration in the eye over the impeller,  blows a huge hole in the water.

Notice the thickness at the shaft shoulder? Never work.

The Berkeley impeller likely has a shoulder the same as the shaft.

Mystery solved.

GT
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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steves86ta

  • Karma: +41/-0
Re: explain jets to me
« Reply #20 on: July 18, 2016, 03:35:47 PM »
Ok, swap out the aluminum A for a stainless A(and whatever else would need to be changed to make it work) does that improve performance? Better handles the FORD power?

I dont think cut for cut youll see a difference. Now if you get with someone like B1 or MPD and have the stainless detailed you might notice a difference.

I really need to look into getting something stronger
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Re: explain jets to me
« Reply #21 on: July 18, 2016, 03:37:16 PM »
Ok, swap out the aluminum A for a stainless A(and whatever else would need to be changed to make it work) does that improve performance? Better handles the FORD power?

The performance difference  between the two would be negligible.

The stainless would just be able to do it longer. Lol

GT
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
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steves86ta

  • Karma: +41/-0
Re: explain jets to me
« Reply #22 on: July 18, 2016, 03:37:35 PM »
The nose on that impeller is an obstruction causing gigantic amounts of aeration in the eye over the impeller,  blows a huge hole in the water.

Notice the thickness at the shaft shoulder? Never work.

The Berkeley impeller likely has a shoulder the same as the shaft.

Mystery solved.

GT

So is this impeller trashed? Or can I detail and cleaned up to improve the flow?

For what its worth

I had the same problem before we cut it down to tighten the clearances up. And tightening it up did improve it.
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69kona

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Re: explain jets to me
« Reply #23 on: July 18, 2016, 03:41:00 PM »

The AT measured at .012 on each side if i remember correctly. Std wear ring, and its also a brand new impeller.

Front/rear clearance was machined down to be .030"

Even added a stuffer with .030" clearance and still cavitated like a mofo

Put the box stock berkeley in, took the stuffer out (wouldnt fit) and it works great
Your American turbine B impeller cavitated before you tighten up the the clearances and added a stuffer ...


Sent from my iPhone using SoCal Jet Boats
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steves86ta

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Re: explain jets to me
« Reply #24 on: July 18, 2016, 03:42:10 PM »
Your American turbine B impeller cavitated before you tighten up the the clearances and added a stuffer ...


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yeah like i said "For what its worth I had the same problem before we cut it down to tighten the clearances up. And tightening it up did improve it."

But maybe, even stock it was pretty obtrusive there
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