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electrowoman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Impeller selection
« on: February 11, 2009, 12:25:32 AM »
I guess this is a good time to replace my original impeller.... 1977 era.   
The boat is the cv23,  pump is the Berkeley 12JE with an A impeller.

My question is with the engine turning this impeller at 5000 to 5100 RPM's should I stay with
the A impeller or go to something else?  Maybe AA?   I estimate HP to be in the 400 to 425 range.

The pump was rebuilt a few years ago but the impeller wasn't changed. 

What do you guys think?

Tom?  Any input?

Where's the best place to buy one??

Thanks in advance for the help 

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GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Impeller selection
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2009, 06:57:14 AM »
I guess this is a good time to replace my original impeller.... 1977 era.   
The boat is the cv23,  pump is the Berkeley 12JE with an A impeller.

My question is with the engine turning this impeller at 5000 to 5100 RPM's should I stay with
the A impeller or go to something else?  Maybe AA?   I estimate HP to be in the 400 to 425 range.

The pump was rebuilt a few years ago but the impeller wasn't changed. 

What do you guys think?

Tom?  Any input?

Where's the best place to buy one??

Thanks in advance for the help 



Ever heard the phrase "if it aint broke, don't fix it"?,  ;) is there a reason you think it might need a change?, to me, it sounds like the combo is working out pretty well, the AA may work a little better as far as lowering the high RPM numbers by a couple hundred and do seem to work a little better in heavier boats, but IMHO could just be a worn wear ring/impeller clearance or something, does not sound too out of line, If it were me I would use the A and install a stuffer to snug things up a little, but I hate replacing good parts.

GT
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

jet boat performance

  • Karma: +25/-0
Re: Impeller selection
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2009, 10:29:00 AM »
Electro , similar to what Glenn said the "advantage " might be that heavier boats can benefit from a bigger impeller( if the "grunt" is there to pull it) Might help that 23 get up and out of the hole better, I will "pull" the upper end rpms down a bit Tom
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electrowoman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Impeller selection
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2009, 12:58:28 PM »
How does that RPM drop relate to MPH?   Would the same HP applied to a AA impeller yield the
same MPH as it would from the A if everything else is equal?

With all the differances in hull design, weight, length etc, there probably isn't anyway to figure MPH
from an impeller and RPM is there?   

Meaning is there anyway to gestimate speed from the impeller graph?   

A impeller at 5050 RPM = MPH   probably not?

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SLCKREG

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Impeller selection
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2009, 01:21:57 PM »
Fwiw(i'm told) most stock motors do well with a  "aa" cut. When I picked my last impeller,I wanted to order a "aa" ,Ron @ a/t talked me into a "b" cut. He then proceded to explain to me that my (larger than stock) camshaft made power higher up in the rpm range, and the AA would not be a good fit, for a modified naturally asperated motor. Just my .02
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electrowoman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Impeller selection
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2009, 01:57:01 PM »
My cam tops out around 5900 max.    It's best torque and HP numbers are in the 5500 range.

It's a Comp cams marine 278.

Oh well, I have a couple months to figure it out   :banghead:  The lake is FROZEN
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Re: Impeller selection
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2009, 04:11:34 PM »
How does that RPM drop relate to MPH? It doesn't (really) MPH has more to do with pump HP/hull setup than impeller  Would the same HP applied to a AA impeller yield the same MPH as it would from the A if everything else is equal? Not if the motor falls out of the HP curve

With all the differances in hull design, weight, length etc, there probably isn't anyway to figure MPH
from an impeller and RPM is there?  Not that I am aware of... 

Meaning is there anyway to gestimate speed from the impeller graph?   

A impeller at 5050 RPM = MPH   probably not? I will say 60+/-5 ;D


  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

electrowoman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Impeller selection
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2009, 05:06:20 PM »
So if I understand this right and I doubt it at this point  ???

My modified engine builds power at higher RPMs than stock, thus I should go with an impeller
that would actually let the engine rev higher rather than bring them down.

Where's the experts here  :-\   

Is it like putting 3:73 gears in the rear of a mustang to let it goooooo    when you install the B cut impeller?? 

Is my rambling even making sense  ???

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Re: Impeller selection
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2009, 05:46:16 PM »
So if I understand this right and I doubt it at this point  ???

My modified engine builds power at higher RPMs than stock, thus I should go with an impeller
that would actually let the engine rev higher rather than bring them down.

Where's the experts here  :-\   

Is it like putting 3:73 gears in the rear of a mustang to let it goooooo    when you install the B cut impeller?? 

Is my rambling even making sense  ???




NO! ;D


Let me see if I can say it without tripping on my tongue....

A pump will absorb the horse power you put to it, it will convert this HP to pressure, this pressure is then sqeezed tighter to create a velocity (speed of the exiting water), the speed and volume of the exiting water is what makes the hull move....

Now that the physics are written (sort of)... the hull speed cannot be higher than the water exiting velocity...right?, so, it would stand to reason that the more pressure the pump makes, the more HP it will absorb, or vice versa, thus ending up with a higher exiting velocity and making more speed.

Now think about all of that together, if you have a tremendous amount of volume, but slower velocity, the hull will come out of the hole pretty good, but will lack in the top speed area, if you have super high velocity speed, but no volume to brag about, it won't plane for crap and may not be enough water to make it very fast either, so you want to be right in the middle of the two.

The pump will take a tremendous amount of HP, sort of like a hydraulic brake, spinning it faster should raise the pressure, sometimes the engine torque curve is different than the impeller pump curve, not allowing the motor to make its top numbers, that is when you would change the cut of the impeller, to obtain peak HP at the RPM the motor is happy  :)

Sometimes the HP is at 6000 rpm, well, that means you need to figure out what HP your talking about and make the adjusment to let the engine get there...Otherwise the motor will lug and you have wasted your effort...

The only difference in an "A" versus a "AA" is longer impeller blades, the pitch stays constant, so simply stated it takes a smaller "bite", that is why the impeller choice is so "odd", a propeller is different in that they have different diameters and different pitches, pitch adjustment will move the water farther per rev. whereas the diameter will allow slippage to get to the desired RPM quicker while planing..

I hope I did not confuse the issue (I talk with my hands and that difficult to get to a keyboard  :screwy: )

GT
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

electrowoman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Impeller selection
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2009, 05:59:29 PM »
 ???

So, I don't want the AA as I don't need more dig.  I'm looking for 65 mph from 61 to 62 I have now.

 The reason I was adding the impeller in the quest for that MPH was it's from 1977 and has some nicks.   I want to make sure it's up to the added HP without popping it's cookies due to metal fatigue.

I think we're narrowing this down.  I believe you're saying stay with an A or go to the B.....

The only weak link in the engine is the long bolt logs.  Everything else is set up to breath quite well.   The logs are port matched which is about all I can do with them.

Am I getting warm?  A or B ;D

« Last Edit: February 11, 2009, 06:05:24 PM by electrowoman »
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Re: Impeller selection
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2009, 06:08:14 PM »
???

So, I don't want the AA as I don't need more dig.  I'm looking for 65 mph from 61 to 62 I have now.

 The reason I was adding the impeller in the quest for that MPH was it's from 1977 and has some nicks.   I want to make sure it's up to the added HP without popping it's cookies due to metal fatigue.

I think we're narrowing this down.  I believe you're saying stay with an A or go to the B.....

The only weak link in the engine is the long bolt logs.  Everything else is set up to breath quite well.   The logs are port matched which is about all I can do with them.

Am I getting warm?  A or B ;D



I don't know about the B  :-\ , at best I'm thinking AB  ??? , still say you're very close with the A, but could be freshened up and go with an AB with a stuffer plate and a good loader, the motor should be able to stay around 5,500 RPM (best guess), I would say 65 is very achievable without much fuss...Bear in mind that the Olds marine motors were rated at 390 HP and most of the 20' boats with the Berkeley Packajet package went 60 MPH out of the box...


GT

  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

electrowoman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Impeller selection
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2009, 06:18:52 PM »
My boat stock ran around 53 MPH.  The engine had a 600 holley I believe, junk heads, and no compression dish pistons.  It was funny in that they put on a cast iron cobra jet intake which ran into major port block with the stock junk head ports  :screwy:  A big hole trying to drain into a small hole.

What does everyone else think?   AB  stay  A

What RPM range will the long bolt logs really cause me problems?  That's another thing to consider, if I can't flow the air to make 5500 RPMs there is no sense gearing for it.

I really appreciate your help GT,  this has been great  :)
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KonaCole

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Impeller selection
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2009, 07:17:09 AM »
Does the pump have a loader?  If not, a loader alone may pick up 3 to 4 MPH and drop 50 to 200 RPM.
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I didn't do it... ok, it was me.

electrowoman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Impeller selection
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2009, 05:13:45 PM »
No loader.  What type would be the way to go?  I know nothing about them either  ???
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Re: Impeller selection
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2009, 05:51:14 PM »
No loader.  What type would be the way to go?  I know nothing about them either  ???

I would say non blocking ramp loader (I call them a "ten and two"). All they really do is load the impeller more evenly and actuall "precharges" the suction of the pump...

GT
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

SLCKREG

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Impeller selection
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2009, 06:17:55 PM »
IMO if your 5k+ on the r's ,I'm not sure I'd cut it smaller, especially if you want to throw nos at it. As far as I know, if you buy an impeller you don't like you can always cut it smaller, but not bigger.
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electrowoman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Impeller selection
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2009, 07:06:56 PM »
I'm checking into the nos now.  It seems like the zex system shines above the rest.  I'm still reading
though.   

Do you think I should stick with the A impeller then?

I want you all to know I really appreciate your time and input!  There is no substitute for experiance
and I have NONE in this area.

Thank you again.
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SLCKREG

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Re: Impeller selection
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2009, 07:17:54 PM »
GT and Tom are your experiance here, I just wanted to point out you already know what an a cut does(mph,rpm.ect.), I'd try a aa, and cut it back if you need to.
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jet boat performance

  • Karma: +25/-0
Re: Impeller selection
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2009, 07:48:16 PM »
GT and Tom are your experiance here, I just wanted to point out you already know what an a cut does(mph,rpm.ect.), I'd try a aa, and cut it back if you need to.

Very Estute observation Kreg , you can always cut an AA , we offer a free "cut" on all impellers
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electrowoman

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Re: Impeller selection
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2009, 08:33:07 PM »
So then in your opinion what should I try in order to possibly pick up a couple MPH but not rev it over 5500 rpms?

I think I'm still thinking backwards on the AA A B deal.

AA less rpms  but takes more engine to turn it.

B  more rpms with less engine to turn it????
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Re: Impeller selection
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2009, 09:24:28 PM »
So then in your opinion what should I try in order to possibly pick up a couple MPH but not rev it over 5500 rpms?

I think I'm still thinking backwards on the AA A B deal.

AA less rpms  but takes more engine to turn it.

B  more rpms with less engine to turn it????

It's almost that simple....I'm staying with the A with some add ons for your ride, can't really spell out why, I think your motor would do well with another few hundred RPM, but don't know if you would realize it on the GPS, let's go with possibly.  :-\

Personally I would put on a loader and give it a hard drive to see what if any difference it makes before the impeller change, mainly because that a hard "undo", we put one in a 460 powered Berk E in a 21' Saber Jet and it saw a reduction of RPM of maybe 50, but seemed to do well while flat out (no GPS) I would bet it went 65 MPH, it ran 5200 RPM with an aluminum A and the only mods from the origional Pakajet 460 was a CJ crank gear, an aluminum manifold (Motorsport Hirise from a swap meet) an MSD electronic distributor and coil and a 825 CFM Barry Grant carb (same swap meet)it was running logs with 4" outlets and hoses (origionally had 3").

I think your setup is in the hunt...An old rigger I used to work for told me every hundred pounds of weight is worth 1/2 MPH on a jet boat, I always said where the weight is has more effect than the weight itself, the right answer is probably somewhere in the middle  ;)

GT
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

electrowoman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Impeller selection
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2009, 09:43:12 PM »
On the loader, what brand or better yet part number should I try?  I am in complete agreement with you on the weight.  The CV23 is a heavy boat especially the way my wife loads it..... and 52 gallons of gas,, ski's,,, fishing rods.. TV.....  ;D

The cooler alone is probably 50 lbs!

I never did have time to finish up tuning last summer.  It got wet and cold very early last year.

The more I read on the NOS the more I'm talking myself out of it. 

I think I'll  raise the ride plate, try the loader and then decide on the impeller.   It seems fine, no slipping I could notice, I was just worried about it's age.
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Re: Impeller selection
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2009, 10:09:47 PM »
On the loader, what brand or better yet part number should I try?  I am in complete agreement with you on the weight.  The CV23 is a heavy boat especially the way my wife loads it..... and 52 gallons of gas,, ski's,,, fishing rods.. TV.....  ;D

The cooler alone is probably 50 lbs!

I never did have time to finish up tuning last summer.  It got wet and cold very early last year.

The more I read on the NOS the more I'm talking myself out of it. 

I think I'll  raise the ride plate, try the loader and then decide on the impeller.   It seems fine, no slipping I could notice, I was just worried about it's age.

The E pumps only accept a couple different loaders, I would go with the basic loader (the E loaders are much smaller than the JC, JG etc...) it looks like a rock grate with a bunch of "fingers" removed and two pieces of angle metal aiming at "10 and 2" O'clock, I always check them to make sure they don't "hang low", I have had to trim them up a bit in the past and I am an "above the bottom believer", but Tom and Josh at JBP have done "100's to my few" so they can help I'm sure, just be sure to use good hardware and through bolt it through the intake due to the added strain they take (not stainless bolts).

You say "raise the ride plate", how low are you running it?, IMO it should be set flat with the keel (bottom) of the boat, the ride plate adjusment if too low will  cause the boat to be bow heavy and that makes a huge difference in top speed...

GT
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

electrowoman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Impeller selection
« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2009, 05:36:44 PM »
I can't remember how far down we moved the plate.  It was lowered to help pull 5 skiers at the same time.  It pulled 3 on one ski and two double.

We just wanted to see if old blue could do it.  You should have seen the hole it blew in the lake!   Yes they all got up.  We nearly sank the chase boat making a turn by his bow  ;D  the wave came in the front of their bow rider.

It had the stock engine with a torker intake, comp cams 280 cam and a holley 750.   I never worried about top end back then because it really didn't have much to worry about.   52 MPH with the normal load of 50 gallons of fuel 4 people and gear.

I built the new engine last winter and would just like to see 65 MPH. (GPS)   It's just me and my wife most of the time now days and I'd like to see what she'll do.   If it does 65 with a new impeller and is more dependable that's great.  If it's stuck at 62 I can live with that just fine also.

I don't open it up that much but when the lake lice try to do the buzz and go by I like to show them the jet from time to time.   ;D

I wonder what she'll do unloaded.....  1/2 tank of fuel, no cooler put the wife on the bank....  hmmmm ::)



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Re: Impeller selection
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2009, 05:39:41 PM »

I wonder what she'll do unloaded.....  1/2 tank of fuel, no cooler put the wife on the bank....  hmmmm ::)

65    ;)

GT
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

 


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