SoCal Jet Boats
Tech Talk => Jet Pumps => Topic started by: koby686 on May 19, 2016, 08:31:08 AM
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One of my good friends and myself just finished the new motor for my boat, started with a 460 long block had the block completely gone threw, cylinders honed, rotating assembly checked and balanced, we went with Keith black .020 over flat top single relief Pistons, D3ve-A2A heads decked with new valves, springs and seats cut. Went with comp cams roller cam .521 lift, 270 duration, edelbrock performer intake, with a Holley 850 double pumper with mechanical secondary's and full MSD ignition. She's at 10:1 on pump
I'm running a stock Berkeley pump with an A empeller.
The motors spinning to 5800-5900 RPM
Last weekend was the first time running it, in shitty choppy conditions she ran 63 on GPS.
Now that you know the gist of it, what can I do to the pump to get some more MPH out of her. From a dig she is cavitating like no body's business, if your cruising at 3k and pedal it she goes good without any cavitation. But I feel the pump is holding her back. I don't have a droop or diverter. But I have a Jet-O if that makes any difference. The hulls a 19FT substance hull similar to the Elimantor bubble deck. She's got some weight to her.
I know you can have all the power in the world but if your pump cannot push the water threw it's a waste so where should I start?
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Were you hitting 58-5900 rpm @ 63 with an 'A'?
From Impeller chart:
rpm......HP...........TQ
5800 698.07 631.88
5900 734.8 653.85
I think the pump is loose.
That ford should be in this neighborhood:
rpm......HP...........TQ
5200 503.07 507.90
5300 532.65 527.63
Time to check out the wear ring/impeller in the pump.
With a tight pump, and some fine tuning, 70+ shouldn't be a problem.
Dan'l
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Looking over some of your posted engine specs, it’s highly unlikely you’re putting out high 600 to 700 HP with that combo; I’d give it maybe 475-525 HP. Good assumption that your pump is tired and could use some beneficial upgrades. Unsure of what type of bowl you have, but to eliminate much of your cavitation issue an inducer would be needed. A loader grate is a big help also to help load the pump, droop snoots are good to get more of the hull out of the water for less drag. A Place Diverter is a very good investment on any jet boat for all round performance. If you’re really feeling the burn in your pocket with money you also can have the intake removed, machined for a shoe/ride plate and even possibly set back. All these changes will equate to higher performance, pump efficiency and higher MPH. To choose the correct impeller the engine really should be dynoed to see the true numbers and torque curve. Just like a drag car with an automatic trans, the converter MUST match the camshaft profile and useable rpm range. But, just like everything, one has to ask themselves how serious are you? What are your goals with the equipment and how much are you willing to spend, all this can become rather costly. Good luck with your project put the money where it counts the most.
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One of my good friends and myself just finished the new motor for my boat, started with a 460 long block had the block completely gone threw, cylinders honed, rotating assembly checked and balanced, we went with Keith black .020 over flat top single relief Pistons, D3ve-A2A heads decked with new valves, springs and seats cut. Went with comp cams roller cam .521 lift, 270 duration, edelbrock performer intake, with a Holley 850 double pumper with mechanical secondary's and full MSD ignition. She's at 10:1 on pump
I'm running a stock Berkeley pump with an A empeller.
The motors spinning to 5800-5900 RPM
Last weekend was the first time running it, in shitty choppy conditions she ran 63 on GPS.
Now that you know the gist of it, what can I do to the pump to get some more MPH out of her. From a dig she is cavitating like no body's business, if your cruising at 3k and pedal it she goes good without any cavitation. But I feel the pump is holding her back. I don't have a droop or diverter. But I have a Jet-O if that makes any difference. The hulls a 19FT substance hull similar to the Elimantor bubble deck. She's got some weight to her.
I know you can have all the power in the world but if your pump cannot push the water threw it's a waste so where should I start?
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So much going on here.
Tach verified?
If so, you need to pull the pump.
Unless the Ford has two huge hair driers, a GM bodied compressor, or a big blue bottle, somethings wore the hell out.
JMHO.
GT
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I will post pics of the pump as soon as I get home from work, I bought the boat last summer from the original owner, with the 460 that was in it she ran high 50s but never in the 60s and would spin to 4800-5000 RPM tops. The motor Grenaded and that's when the new build begun which is where I am at now.
I have not touched or changed anything in the pump since last summer and have not touched the Tach guage.
It could be that the guy was full of shit and it doesn't have an A empeller in it.
But it sure as hell is cavitating.
I already spent close to 6k for the new motor with the new ignition so spending some more on the pump to get the power to work will have to be done.
I'll get some underneath pics later today hopefully you guys can get some ideas from there.
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Looking over some of your posted engine specs, it’s highly unlikely you’re putting out high 600 to 700 HP with that combo; I’d give it maybe 475-525 HP. Good assumption that your pump is tired and could use some beneficial upgrades. Unsure of what type of bowl you have, but to eliminate much of your cavitation issue an inducer would be needed. A loader grate is a big help also to help load the pump, droop snoots are good to get more of the hull out of the water for less drag. A Place Diverter is a very good investment on any jet boat for all round performance. If you’re really feeling the burn in your pocket with money you also can have the intake removed, machined for a shoe/ride plate and even possibly set back. All these changes will equate to higher performance, pump efficiency and higher MPH. To choose the correct impeller the engine really should be dynoed to see the true numbers and torque curve. Just like a drag car with an automatic trans, the converter MUST match the camshaft profile and useable rpm range. But, just like everything, one has to ask themselves how serious are you? What are your goals with the equipment and how much are you willing to spend, all this can become rather costly. Good luck with your project put the money where it counts the most.
I'm not looking to race the boat but the more performance I can get out of it the better.. I Would like to spend as least as possible since this thing has been cleaning out the pocket left and right but I'm in it deep already so a little more to get the most I can out of it will be a must.
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I have this picture on my phone of the pump
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I have a stock 460 with same cam as you 12jg a impeller with a loader shoe and ride plate no place diverted I run 4800 rpms at about 60 mph my pump is tight check yours
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I have this picture on my phone of the pump
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It's difficult to tell for sure from that pic. Is that a flat keel hull? from the transom angle shot and your statement it appears it may be a splash of an eliminator sprint with Biesmeyer style deck. A more close up pic of the deck would help too but most specifically to answer your question good pics. of the bottom of the boat and the transition area from the keel into the pump would be best.
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How do you check the pump? How could it go loose from sitting for a year if it didn't go above 5000 with the old setup and now it's spins to 58-5900 with new setup. Completely different motors and ignition setup would yield more rpm or am I missing something?
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Did you do a lot of test and tune in driveway with pump hooked up that will mess up wear ring and other pump parts
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I did run it with the pump hooked up but maybe maybe a total of 5 minutes, just to make sure there are no leaks, had a small water leak and valve cover leaked fixed it fired up to make sure there's no leaks and that's it straight to the lake. But didn't hold her wide or anything like that just revved a few times.
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I forgot to mention the pump always cavitated even with the stock 460 that was in it before and that thing was tired.
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its possible youre making more power now and just "blowing" it out
But yes, you should be nowhere near 5800 rpm with that thing. Even if it had a B impeller...
im all of 625-650 on the bottle and i barely spin a B- to 6200
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Here's what we're working with
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its possible youre making more power now and just "blowing" it out
But yes, you should be nowhere near 5800 rpm with that thing. Even if it had a B impeller...
im all of 625-650 on the bottle and i barely spin a B- to 6200
I wonder if the guy BSed me and its a different impeller and not an 'A' or something is just fucked up with the pump.
It's almost like comparing it to a burnt clutch, you get on it hard and it's slips but if you gradually get on it it's good. But even on top end I feel it has power to go faster but it's just being held back.
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I wonder if the guy BSed me and its a different impeller and not an 'A' or something is just fucked up with the pump.
It's almost like comparing it to a burnt clutch, you get on it hard and it's slips but if you gradually get on it it's good. But even on top end I feel it has power to go faster but it's just being held back.
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welcome to my hell.....
I have a pretty fresh pump but its not "built" by any means. Just tightened up the clearances a bit, new impeller, etc. I have no diverter or inducer...
if i flat foot it from idle. It will literally bounce the rev limiter all damn day long. If im cruising and stab it it hooks hard and pulls good.
My money is on your pump is worn out, and needs to at least be inspected for excessive clearances. You have a diverter so thats good. Keep it pointed down on the launch, see if that helps.
But an inducer would help too.
Pull the bowl, get some playdoh and measure your clearances
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welcome to my hell.....
I have a pretty fresh pump but its not "built" by any means. Just tightened up the clearances a bit, new impeller, etc. I have no diverter or inducer...
if i flat foot it from idle. It will literally bounce the rev limiter all damn day long. If im cruising and stab it it hooks hard and pulls good.
My money is on your pump is worn out, and needs to at least be inspected for excessive clearances. You have a diverter so thats good. Keep it pointed down on the launch, see if that helps.
But an inducer would help too.
Pull the bowl, get some playdoh and measure your clearances
yea I am thinking it has to be the pump, and now with more power it just blowing right threw it.
Sounds like our boats are doing the same exact thing.
I have a neighbor who told me he blue prints pumps, wonder if it's worth to give him a shout and see what the deal is with him.
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yea I am thinking it has to be the pump, and now with more power it just blowing right threw it.
Sounds like our boats are doing the same exact thing.
I have a neighbor who told me he blue prints pumps, wonder if it's worth to give him a shout and see what the deal is with him.
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blueprint AKA tighten up the clearances. It may help, but you may still have an issue
We set all my clearances up at .025 maybe it was .030 i dont remember. It helped about 50% i would say. but i can still blow it out easily
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That is the craziest diverted set I've ever seen how well does it work
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blueprint AKA tighten up the clearances. It may help, but you may still have an issue
We set all my clearances up at .025 maybe it was .030 i dont remember. It helped about 50% i would say. but i can still blow it out easily
This is why I posted on here, figured between everyone we could figure something out.
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That is the craziest diverted set I've ever seen how well does it work
It's nothing special, it uses what looks like a car window motor, going up takes a solid few seconds, going down is fairly quick. I'm not sure how old the thing is but I'm sure it doesn't help that it's not new. It will only throw a roost up about 6-7 feet above the boat so it doesn't go up that high Either
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It's nothing special, it uses what looks like a car window motor, going up takes a solid few seconds, going down is fairly quick. I'm not sure how old the thing is but I'm sure it doesn't help that it's not new. It will only throw a roost up about 6-7 feet above the boat so it doesn't go up that high Either
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ive seen where people grind the top to get more roost
the only real downfall is if it breaks or goes out you lose steering...
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Well, going off a previous post of yours, and I quote, "spend as least as possible”, really doesn’t leave much on the table. I’d say on a budget, get the pump rebuilt and invest in an inducer and Place Diverter and maybe a loader, but even with those items your looking at least $2,500. If you want to play on a higher level you’re going to have to dig a little deeper in the wallet.
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See if this works
https://instagram.com/p/BFgv7QKJ8FW/
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That is the craziest diverter set-up I've ever seen, how well does it work?
Original Genuine Berkeley Jet-O-Vator. '70's
A Place Diverter would be an upgrade, but its better than nothing...maybe
Dan'l
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I don't have anything on mine still get to about 60 how many mph will I gain when I add a plce diverter
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Steves86ta, Playdoh?...really?...is that how you check oil clearances too?..how about using the proper tools to check clearances…example; feeler gauges, calipers, dial indicators, bore gauges…ect.
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Well, going off a previous post of yours, and I quote, "spend as least as possible”, really doesn’t leave much on the table. I’d say on a budget, get the pump rebuilt and invest in an inducer and Place Diverter and maybe a loader, but even with those items your looking at least $2,500. If you want to play on a higher level you’re going to have to dig a little deeper in the wallet.
$2500 just for some pump work ah? Damn things add up...
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ive seen where people grind the top to get more roost
the only real downfall is if it breaks or goes out you lose steering...
I've looked to see where I could grind but it doesn't hit anything and it stops, I tried to adjust it from the inside aswell, but didn't make any difference. Assuming the motor has its up/down "limits"
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$2500 just for some pump work ah? Damn things add up...
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You can spend less. I spent just under 2k for the work done to mine and it was night and day. My impeller and bowl were good though. Machine work to impeller and new droop and diverter. Well worth the money.
Garrett
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Steves86ta, Playdoh?...really?...is that how you check oil clearances too?..how about using the proper tools to check clearances…example; feeler gauges, calipers, dial indicators, bore gauges…ect.
you know Hans, theres no reason to be a dick.
hes clearly on a budget. While i agree that its not the "right" thing to do. it will get him close and tell him where his front and rear clearances are.
Obviously you cant measure the wear ring clearance with playdogh that has to be done with feeler gauges. He can use it for front and rear clearances. The truth is it will get him close enough to know if his shit is completely out of spec or not.
not everyone out there has the money or resources to go and spend a few hundred dollars on measuring devices. Especially when we dont even know if thats his issue or not.
And no thats not how i measured my oil clearances. But would it really matter anyways? Its not a completely built big block that has 10k into it. So in the eyes of many it doesnt belong in a jet boat and wont work.
But surprise, its a junkyard small block thats faster than a lot of the boats on here, including yours
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Yes it sure adds up quickly, not trying to scare you, but being truthful. I wouldn’t waste my time on that Jet-O-Vator, or Mickey Mouse anything. Purchase a real Place Diverter, that alone will be your one biggest performance improvement, besides a pump overhaul.
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Steves86ta, Playdoh?...really?...is that how you check oil clearances too?..how about using the proper tools to check clearances…example; feeler gauges, calipers, dial indicators, bore gauges…ect.
Steve was checking impeller to bowl clearance, after fabbing up a stuffer plate, using playdoh, not checking main bearings, lol
I prefer tootsie rolls for bowl to impeller clearance.
Dan'l
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Okay Steve, it’s not being a dick, it’s being real….For the record I don’t have 10K in my engine, and if you have the balls to pull your “baby bottle” off come try and give me a run with your junk yard engine…
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Okay Steve, it’s not being a dick, it’s being real….For the record I don’t have 10K in my engine, and if you have the balls to pull your “baby bottle” off come try and give me a run with your junk yard engine…
sounds like to me, your afraid to run your big block against a small little junkyard engine with a small shot of nitrous
if a big block is so great, shouldt it easily destroy a shitty engine like mine?
Ill be in Blythe for Fathers day.. come on down
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You are not scaring me away, I just wanna get this thing dialed in and use it to its potential, but want to do it right the first time around and not buy stuff that is not needed.
What does the diverter do? Puts the nosle further down into the water?
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You are not scaring me away, I just wanna get this thing dialed in and use it to its potential, but want to do it right the first time around and not buy stuff that is not needed.
What does the diverter do? Puts the nosle further down into the water?
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essentially the same thing your Jet-o-vator does. But a much better improved design.
check out their site. Its a great product
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You always seem to know better…Umm, lets see, your about to put together your third engine in how long?...two years?...that’s a track record I’d sure be proud of….LOL...nothing left to discuss, the owner of the boat on this thread will do what he feels necessary within his budget be it right or wrong.
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essentially the same thing your Jet-o-vator does. But a much better improved design.
check out their site. Its a great product
sounds good I will check them out. What about having the pump blue printed?
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sounds good I will check them out. What about having the pump blue printed?
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The tighter the clearances the harder the hit will be
I still say. You should pull the bowl and inspect what's there and measure what's there.
Two reasons
1. You know what it looks like when you do have it rebuilt. So you aren't surprised.
2. You may find your answer in there
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The tighter the clearances the harder the hit will be
I still say. You should pull the bowl and inspect what's there and measure what's there.
Two reasons
1. You know what it looks like when you do have it rebuilt. So you aren't surprised.
2. You may find your answer in there
how do you pull the bowl? Sorry for the dumb questions never worked on the jets before
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Hey bud, if you want to drag your boat over to my house I can help you
I have the proper tools AND I have enough spare parts to put together another place diverter. Im looking at building the shit out of my dominator and my berkley only has two seasons on it. Im sure we could work something out...You know it works!!👍
One fast station wagon!!!
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how do you pull the bowl? Sorry for the dumb questions never worked on the jets before
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Where are you located?
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Josh sounds good brother! I'm in! Steve I live in Santa Clarita
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how do you pull the bowl? Sorry for the dumb questions never worked on the jets before
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CP has a whole library of videos:
http://www.cpperformance.com/t-berkeley_jet_rebuild.aspx (http://www.cpperformance.com/t-berkeley_jet_rebuild.aspx)
PM sent
Dan'l
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Sounds like the pump to me I bought my Ford 460 last year just about the same specs as you did and I did the exact same thing worked fine until I put the new engine in it then had the same problem with the pump cavitating put new wear ring and powder inducer motor and stuffer pump works awesome now holeshot really hard and blows a huge rooster tail
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how do you pull the bowl? Sorry for the dumb questions never worked on the jets before
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I live in the SCV as well and if you want some additional help let me know. I've taken a few pumps apart and rebuilt them, I also have all of the special tools needed. When something doesn't come loose easily a propane torch is your best friend. I have a few spare parts. I had a jet-o-vator long ago, they're not that bad and yes it's a 70's GM electric window motor. When mine failed I went to an old school auto parts store and the old guy looks at it for a couple of seconds, 70's something Cadillac window motor, $35.
You won't have to spend $2500, with some proper direction there's plenty of guys here with used parts you could use.
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Sounds like the pump to me I bought my Ford 460 last year just about the same specs as you did and I did the exact same thing worked fine until I put the new engine in it then had the same problem with the pump cavitating put new wear ring and powder inducer motor and stuffer pump works awesome now holeshot really hard and blows a huge rooster tail
On the other hand this will cost you $2500, nice work ron.h
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I already had the Impaler so is about 1800
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And my wife still complaining about it
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I'm in Fontana. J2 I'd closer and willing to help. Let me know if nothing works I can always use an excuse fir a bike ride
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And my wife still complaining about it
My 1st & 2nd wive's complained about my boat parts & other stuff I like too. That's why their ex's.
The 3rd & current wife is cool with everything and she gets the boat part thing, it's simply who I am :thumbup:
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Just stop complaining when she finally gets a ride
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You guys are all awesome! I really appreciate everyone's input and Everyone's willingness to help! The plan is to run her this weekend and maybe next for memorial then open up the pump and see what we got going on in there.
How long would it take once it's all opened up to complete the freshen up?
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You guys are all awesome! I really appreciate everyone's input and Everyone's willingness to help! The plan is to run her this weekend and maybe next for memorial then open up the pump and see what we got going on in there.
How long would it take once it's all opened up to complete the freshen up?
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if you have parts/tools/supplies. And no machining is necessary. Could be done easily in a day or weekend
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if you have parts/tools/supplies. And no machining is necessary. Could be done easily in a day or weekend
Alright perfect 👌🏽
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