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koby686

  • Karma: +5/-0
Pump work?
« on: May 19, 2016, 08:31:08 AM »
One of my good friends and myself just finished the new motor for my boat, started with a 460 long block had the block completely gone threw, cylinders honed, rotating assembly checked and balanced, we went with Keith black .020 over flat top single relief Pistons, D3ve-A2A heads decked with new valves, springs and seats cut. Went with comp cams roller cam .521 lift, 270 duration, edelbrock performer intake, with a Holley 850 double pumper with mechanical secondary's and full MSD ignition. She's at 10:1 on pump

I'm running a stock Berkeley pump with an A empeller.

The motors spinning to 5800-5900 RPM

Last weekend was the first time running it, in shitty choppy conditions she ran 63 on GPS.

Now that you know the gist of it, what can I do to the pump to get some more MPH out of her. From a dig she is cavitating like no body's business, if your cruising at 3k and pedal it she goes good without any cavitation. But I feel the pump is holding her back. I don't have a droop or diverter. But I have a Jet-O if that makes any difference. The hulls a 19FT substance hull similar to the Elimantor bubble deck. She's got some weight to her.

I know you can have all the power in the world but if your pump cannot push the water threw it's a waste so where should I start?




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mash on it

  • Karma: +29/-0
Re: Pump work?
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2016, 09:54:42 AM »
Were you hitting 58-5900 rpm @ 63 with an 'A'?

From Impeller chart:
rpm......HP...........TQ
5800     698.07   631.88
5900     734.8   653.85

I think the pump is loose.
That ford should be in this neighborhood:

rpm......HP...........TQ
5200     503.07   507.90
5300     532.65   527.63

Time to check out the wear ring/impeller in the pump.

With a tight pump, and some fine tuning, 70+ shouldn't be a problem.

Dan'l




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86caribbean

  • Karma: +11/-0
Re: Pump work?
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2016, 11:25:36 AM »
Looking over some of your posted engine specs, it’s highly unlikely you’re putting out high 600 to 700 HP with that combo; I’d give it maybe 475-525 HP. Good assumption that your pump is tired and could use some beneficial upgrades. Unsure of what type of bowl you have, but to eliminate much of your cavitation issue an inducer would be needed. A loader grate is a big help also to help load the pump, droop snoots are good to get more of the hull out of the water for less drag. A Place Diverter is a very good investment on any jet boat for all round performance. If you’re really feeling the burn in your pocket with money you also can have the intake removed, machined for a shoe/ride plate and even possibly set back. All these changes will equate to higher performance, pump efficiency and higher MPH. To choose the correct impeller the engine really should be dynoed to see the true numbers and torque curve. Just like a drag car with an automatic trans, the converter MUST match the camshaft profile and useable rpm range. But, just like everything, one has to ask themselves how serious are you? What are your goals with the equipment and how much are you willing to spend, all this can become rather costly. Good luck with your project put the money where it counts the most.
  • Boat #1: 1986 18' Caribbean
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GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: Pump work?
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2016, 12:32:19 PM »
One of my good friends and myself just finished the new motor for my boat, started with a 460 long block had the block completely gone threw, cylinders honed, rotating assembly checked and balanced, we went with Keith black .020 over flat top single relief Pistons, D3ve-A2A heads decked with new valves, springs and seats cut. Went with comp cams roller cam .521 lift, 270 duration, edelbrock performer intake, with a Holley 850 double pumper with mechanical secondary's and full MSD ignition. She's at 10:1 on pump

I'm running a stock Berkeley pump with an A empeller.

The motors spinning to 5800-5900 RPM

Last weekend was the first time running it, in shitty choppy conditions she ran 63 on GPS.

Now that you know the gist of it, what can I do to the pump to get some more MPH out of her. From a dig she is cavitating like no body's business, if your cruising at 3k and pedal it she goes good without any cavitation. But I feel the pump is holding her back. I don't have a droop or diverter. But I have a Jet-O if that makes any difference. The hulls a 19FT substance hull similar to the Elimantor bubble deck. She's got some weight to her.

I know you can have all the power in the world but if your pump cannot push the water threw it's a waste so where should I start?




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So much going on here.

Tach verified?

If so,  you need to pull the pump.

Unless the Ford has two huge hair driers,  a GM bodied compressor, or a big blue bottle, somethings wore the hell out.

JMHO.

GT
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

koby686

  • Karma: +5/-0
Re: Pump work?
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2016, 12:54:45 PM »
I will post pics of the pump as soon as I get home from work, I bought the boat last summer from the original owner, with the 460 that was in it she ran high 50s but never in the 60s and would spin to 4800-5000 RPM tops. The motor Grenaded and that's when the new build begun which is where I am at now.

I have not touched or changed anything in the pump since last summer and have not touched the Tach guage.

It could be that the guy was full of shit and it doesn't have an A empeller in it.

But it sure as hell is cavitating.

I already spent close to 6k for the new motor with the new ignition so spending some more on the pump to get the power to work will have to be done.

I'll get some underneath pics later today hopefully you guys can get some ideas from there.


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koby686

  • Karma: +5/-0
Re: Pump work?
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2016, 01:00:28 PM »

Looking over some of your posted engine specs, it’s highly unlikely you’re putting out high 600 to 700 HP with that combo; I’d give it maybe 475-525 HP. Good assumption that your pump is tired and could use some beneficial upgrades. Unsure of what type of bowl you have, but to eliminate much of your cavitation issue an inducer would be needed. A loader grate is a big help also to help load the pump, droop snoots are good to get more of the hull out of the water for less drag. A Place Diverter is a very good investment on any jet boat for all round performance. If you’re really feeling the burn in your pocket with money you also can have the intake removed, machined for a shoe/ride plate and even possibly set back. All these changes will equate to higher performance, pump efficiency and higher MPH. To choose the correct impeller the engine really should be dynoed to see the true numbers and torque curve. Just like a drag car with an automatic trans, the converter MUST match the camshaft profile and useable rpm range. But, just like everything, one has to ask themselves how serious are you? What are your goals with the equipment and how much are you willing to spend, all this can become rather costly. Good luck with your project put the money where it counts the most.
I'm not looking to race the boat but the more performance I can get out of it the better.. I Would like to spend as least as possible since this thing has been cleaning out the pocket left and right but I'm in it deep already so a little more to get the most I can out of it will be a must.


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koby686

  • Karma: +5/-0
Re: Pump work?
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2016, 01:03:21 PM »
I have this picture on my phone of the pump


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78southwindtdeck

  • Karma: +3/-0
Re: Pump work?
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2016, 02:07:59 PM »
I have a stock 460 with same cam as you 12jg a impeller with a loader shoe and ride plate no place diverted I run 4800 rpms at about 60 mph my pump is tight check yours
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damfoo

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Pump work?
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2016, 02:09:18 PM »
I have this picture on my phone of the pump


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It's difficult to tell for sure from that pic. Is that a flat keel hull? from the transom angle shot and your statement it appears it may be a splash of an eliminator sprint with Biesmeyer style deck. A more close up pic of the deck would help too but most specifically to answer your question  good pics. of the bottom of the boat and the transition area from the keel into the pump would be best.   
  • Boat #1: 1978 Eliminator, 20' SS,
  • Boat #2: 1981 Syndicate 3/8" runner bottom
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koby686

  • Karma: +5/-0
Re: Pump work?
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2016, 02:15:28 PM »
How do you check the pump? How could it go loose from sitting for a year if it didn't go above 5000 with the old setup and now it's spins to 58-5900 with new setup. Completely different motors and ignition setup would yield more rpm or am I missing something?


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78southwindtdeck

  • Karma: +3/-0
Re: Pump work?
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2016, 02:22:24 PM »
Did you do a lot of test and tune in driveway with pump hooked up that will mess up wear ring and other pump parts
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koby686

  • Karma: +5/-0
Re: Pump work?
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2016, 02:32:02 PM »
I did run it with the pump hooked up but maybe maybe a total of 5 minutes, just to make sure there are no leaks, had a small water leak and valve cover leaked fixed it fired up to make sure there's no leaks and that's it straight to the lake. But didn't hold her wide or anything like that just revved a few times.


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koby686

  • Karma: +5/-0
Re: Pump work?
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2016, 02:34:21 PM »
I forgot to mention the pump always cavitated even with the stock 460 that was in it before and that thing was tired.


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steves86ta

  • Karma: +41/-0
Re: Pump work?
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2016, 02:35:04 PM »
its possible youre making more power now and just "blowing" it out

But yes, you should be nowhere near 5800 rpm with that thing. Even if it had a B impeller...

im all of 625-650 on the bottle and i barely spin a B- to 6200
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koby686

  • Karma: +5/-0
Re: Pump work?
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2016, 02:59:04 PM »
Here's what we're working with




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koby686

  • Karma: +5/-0
Re: Pump work?
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2016, 03:01:57 PM »

its possible youre making more power now and just "blowing" it out

But yes, you should be nowhere near 5800 rpm with that thing. Even if it had a B impeller...

im all of 625-650 on the bottle and i barely spin a B- to 6200
I wonder if the guy BSed me and its a different impeller and not an 'A' or something is just fucked up with the pump.

It's almost like comparing it to a burnt clutch, you get on it hard and it's slips but if you gradually get on it it's good. But even on top end I feel it has power to go faster but it's just being held back. 


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steves86ta

  • Karma: +41/-0
Re: Pump work?
« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2016, 03:05:47 PM »
I wonder if the guy BSed me and its a different impeller and not an 'A' or something is just fucked up with the pump.

It's almost like comparing it to a burnt clutch, you get on it hard and it's slips but if you gradually get on it it's good. But even on top end I feel it has power to go faster but it's just being held back. 


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welcome to my hell.....

I have a pretty fresh pump but its not "built" by any means. Just tightened up the clearances a bit, new impeller, etc. I have no diverter or inducer...

if i flat foot it from idle. It will literally bounce the rev limiter all damn day long. If im cruising and stab it it hooks hard and pulls good.

My money is on your pump is worn out, and needs to at least be inspected for excessive clearances. You have a diverter so thats good. Keep it pointed down on the launch, see if that helps.

But an inducer would help too.

Pull the bowl, get some playdoh and measure your clearances
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koby686

  • Karma: +5/-0
Re: Pump work?
« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2016, 03:11:27 PM »

welcome to my hell.....

I have a pretty fresh pump but its not "built" by any means. Just tightened up the clearances a bit, new impeller, etc. I have no diverter or inducer...

if i flat foot it from idle. It will literally bounce the rev limiter all damn day long. If im cruising and stab it it hooks hard and pulls good.

My money is on your pump is worn out, and needs to at least be inspected for excessive clearances. You have a diverter so thats good. Keep it pointed down on the launch, see if that helps.

But an inducer would help too.

Pull the bowl, get some playdoh and measure your clearances
yea I am thinking it has to be the pump, and now with more power it just blowing right threw it.

Sounds like our boats are doing the same exact thing.

I have a neighbor who told me he blue prints pumps, wonder if it's worth to give him a shout and see what the deal is with him.


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steves86ta

  • Karma: +41/-0
Re: Pump work?
« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2016, 03:18:36 PM »
yea I am thinking it has to be the pump, and now with more power it just blowing right threw it.

Sounds like our boats are doing the same exact thing.

I have a neighbor who told me he blue prints pumps, wonder if it's worth to give him a shout and see what the deal is with him.


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blueprint AKA tighten up the clearances. It may help, but you may still have an issue

We set all my clearances up at .025 maybe it was .030 i dont remember. It helped about 50% i would say. but i can still blow it out easily
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78southwindtdeck

  • Karma: +3/-0
Re: Pump work?
« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2016, 03:20:51 PM »
That is the craziest diverted set I've ever seen how well does it work
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koby686

  • Karma: +5/-0
Re: Pump work?
« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2016, 03:21:50 PM »

blueprint AKA tighten up the clearances. It may help, but you may still have an issue

We set all my clearances up at .025 maybe it was .030 i dont remember. It helped about 50% i would say. but i can still blow it out easily
This is why I posted on here, figured between everyone we could figure something out.


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koby686

  • Karma: +5/-0
Re: Pump work?
« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2016, 03:23:46 PM »

That is the craziest diverted set I've ever seen how well does it work
It's nothing special, it uses what looks like a car window motor, going up takes a solid few seconds, going down is fairly quick. I'm not sure how old the thing is but I'm sure it doesn't help that it's not new. It will only throw a roost up about 6-7 feet above the boat so it doesn't go up that high Either


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steves86ta

  • Karma: +41/-0
Re: Pump work?
« Reply #22 on: May 19, 2016, 03:24:58 PM »
It's nothing special, it uses what looks like a car window motor, going up takes a solid few seconds, going down is fairly quick. I'm not sure how old the thing is but I'm sure it doesn't help that it's not new. It will only throw a roost up about 6-7 feet above the boat so it doesn't go up that high Either


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ive seen where people grind the top to get more roost

the only real downfall is if it breaks or goes out you lose steering...
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86caribbean

  • Karma: +11/-0
Re: Pump work?
« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2016, 03:25:27 PM »
Well, going off a previous post of yours, and I quote, "spend as least as possible”, really doesn’t leave much on the table. I’d say on a budget, get the pump rebuilt and invest in an inducer and Place Diverter and maybe a loader, but even with those items your looking at least $2,500. If you want to play on a higher level you’re going to have to dig a little deeper in the wallet.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2016, 03:53:47 PM by 86caribbean »
  • Boat #1: 1986 18' Caribbean
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koby686

  • Karma: +5/-0
Re: Pump work?
« Reply #24 on: May 19, 2016, 03:26:45 PM »
See if this works

https://instagram.com/p/BFgv7QKJ8FW/


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