SoCal Jet Boats
Tech Talk => Projects => Topic started by: jagboat on January 08, 2017, 11:37:31 AM
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Hi all
I am Arnaud from Paris
My garden is loaded with a bad weapon Carlson CVX 20 jet :)[attach=5]
this is the only way to enjoy legaly a fat v8 in a turbine over here in france
No motor show lousy dragsters are lucky enough to ride our oceans or our nice rivers :(
I ride basically in center of Paris , it is a magical touristic tour on the Seine causing 8 millions passengers a year , world's biggest port river passenger trafic sort of
& a bit of freedom , it's full of cops hype & serious no speed allowed 12M/h you are taped & oftenly arrested, beetwen huge Bateau mouches in lane with no brake
Well we do have our Lake havasu by force , barely 3 miles of happyness in Suresnes where high speed is recommended for watersports ski wake fun & no matters
All kinds of boats are required but a jet boat's better, only option is a kinda street legal Glastron Carlson with its inboard engine lookalike & I love it
the thing is in progress , main target is to have good power,less weight, no noise , no gassomisation & no technical worry[attachimg=6]
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Coming from Montreal Canada last year [attach=4][attach=6][attach=1][attach=2][attach=5]
costed me 3000 € complete fresh berkeley , engine ??[attachimg=3]
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[attachimg=1][attachimg=2]
Let's go
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Simple move. Best advice I would have.
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to the garage [attach=6][attach=4][attach=2][attach=1] all is very old & rusty , I don't really know what i do expect ??[attach=5][attach=3] beurk :-[
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Time to go Mr 460 [attach=1][attach=4][attach=2][attach=3]you are so fat maaaaaaan !!!
For such a simple euro dude a badass 460 is not a current problem
[attach=5][attach=8][attach=7][attach=6]
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I did my best to dismantle the thing , access to rod studs was shortissime[attach=1][attach=2]
beside some rust the engine is almost new[attach=3][attach=4][attach=5]
I am happy after a good cleaning I do have a 460 pretty well rebuilt by some CHARRON is it famous ?
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So what we have
- 1 good hull
- 1 freshly rebuilt rotten engine , job was done in 1983 ok ok
- 1 berkeley JCE rebuilt also but never used
I was really into ford v8 jet boat power thing until the crank main bearing came on scene yelling he's tired even dead
how come a side bearing is worn when all the rest is in ;D ;D ;D condittion ??
the Crank is dead only on the center side of the journal meaning pressure had to be apply big time [attach=1]
too bad at that time they seem to blew the pump bearing or so & ruined the engine by loss of oil pressure
They rebuilt the pump & realise a crank noise
well I am :-\
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I am into swap for astro sign then the idea of buying a new crank & €€€ is negleted
What kind of affordable engine is available quick on the street , 400hp v8 easy to work , i thought Audi... almost bought a RS4 very cheap amazing !!
but those 420 hp are way high 7000 rpm it won't beat the low torque of the 7500cm3 ford I need a strong light supercharged V8 , there 's only the jag !!
[attachimg=2][attachimg=1]
2500 € inc full ignition
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this adapter was a :o :-\ :'( :o >:D ;D ;D ;D to draw & machine
[attach=1][attach=3][attach=5][attach=2][attach=6][attach=4]
hope it will handle the torque
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I was frieakenout by the idea of a no way it goes[attach=4][attach=1][attach=5][attach=6][attach=3]
but it seems born in it so here is the jag boat [attach=2] or the Jag Jet Joat
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the jag bell gearbox is used [attach=1][attach=2]
an adapter is in progress to match the gap[attach=3][attach=5][attach=6]
XKR 4,0 is 420hp with pulley kit , equal torque of 460 & spins 7000rpm
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As an humble mechanics i am really open to comment as I don't really see where i'm going but I plow into :banghead:
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this adapter was a :o :-\ :'( :o >:D ;D ;D ;D to draw & machine
(Attachment Link) (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)
hope it will handle the torque
Nice work on the PTO.
I'm excited to see your rigging.
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As an humble mechanics i am really open to comment as I don't really see where i'm going but I plow into :banghead:
What is the height difference between the original 3-point mount bell and your gearbox bell? With your machining skills, looks like it will be easy. Just make sure the drive line yoke doesn't bottom out on the pump shaft and you have 3.2 - 4.7mm clearance.
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Hi Flusher thanks for interest
from bell to the clamp on the pump it miss 60mm
i start with a peace of alu 200x300x60 mm
it's been design now on autocad , i'm too bad in cad
3,7 4,2 you mean yokes / pump shaft to touch ? yes sounds good not to kill the jag I guess it's not engeneered to have high axial pressure neither the ford
how come the pump move that much ; isn't the shaft bearing well tight to keep the faith ?
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Hi Flusher thanks for interest
from bell to the clamp on the pump it miss 60mm
i start with a peace of alu 200x300x60 mm
it's been design now on autocad , i'm too bad in cad
3,7 4,2 you mean yokes / pump shaft to touch ? yes sounds good not to kill the jag I guess it's not engeneered to have high axial pressure neither the ford
how come the pump move that much ; isn't the shaft bearing well tight to keep the faith ?
The hull flexes. There is slight clearance in the pump thrust bearing and bowl pressure pushes the impeller and shaft forward in the suction housing. The crankshaft thrust bearing can not handle the thrust loads. Oil pressure, taking the path of least resistance, will flow to the front and the rear surface will go dry. The crankshaft and bearing thrust surfaces burn up pretty quickly with that kind of load on them. The 1/8-inch [3.2mm] to 3/16-inch [4.7mm] provides a little free float to prevent solid contact.
To give an idea of how much thrust force we are talking, a jet pump with an A impeller at 9-inch [228.6mm] diameter, producing 100 PSI [689.5 kPa] of bowl pressure, will produce 6,361 lbs [28,295.1N] force.
Engagement won't be an issue. The splines don't roll or shear, usually the OEM 304 stainless steel shaft will twist after the yoke. I wouldn't worry about that until you hit the 600 horsepower range or install a stainless impeller.
Lastly, verify that the yoke slides easily all the way on the shaft. You don't want the splines binding either.
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You will be running a closed cooling system?
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OK so this is what happens to the 460 , no clearance or dead pump bearing killed it , I will pay attention by the time I built the motor mounts
Too bad I was excited by the bbf feeling but it gives opportunity to give a good diet to the boat +300 kg to -200kg , aluminium is way lighter
Yes good thought I am planning intercooler & closed cooling , seems easy to achieve , inlet manifold for the supercharger is water cooled
I am also in the exhaust manifold build , I start with a pair of Ford 5.0 headers , ports are not centered as the jag but I will cut & weld
I will box the header with some stainless sheet as I saw some company doing [attach=2][attach=1]
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to food my v8 passion i work on a sbc 283 from a 19 Chris Craft 1960 that is gardened rebuilt as well
All the top will be aluminium edelbrock to lighthen & boost the perf [attach=1][attach=5][attach=3][attach=4][attach=6][attach=2]
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In order to fit the engine in , I need to make a spacer between the jag bell & the pump
I did a test fit & measured what was missing , around 60mm , with in mind a bit of play thX Flusher !!
i will start the thing with a piece of alu 300x200x60 [attach=7]
first is to check the bolt pattern & measurement of the bell , let's take the pied a coulisse [attach=6]
then all is drawn CAD on catia [attach=2]
It is so cool to see the part being revealed within some clicks [attach=1] [attach=4] [attach=5]
The file will be forwarded to my mate directly into the Mill machine
then I 'll have it in real [attach=8]
smell like water jet suddenly!!! . oups it's me sorry ^-^
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Did you compensate for the difference in the length of the drive line stack up?
You need to base the adapter thickness on the distance from the rear surface of the block to the tip of the drive line plus 3.2mm.
You can't directly measure the difference in bell housing height.
Measure the distance from the rear surface of the block to the crankshaft flange. Add the thickness of your flywheel/flexplate. Add the thickness of your 2-piece PTO. Add the length of your drive line. Add 3.2mm clearance. Do this for the 460 also. The difference is the height of your adapter.
The difference in height between bells is irrelevant without comparing all the other parts.
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CAD drawings look killer so far
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I've put the engine on the boat with the coupler / pto in position , went to bottom shaft
then I added a bit of play so I went to around 60mm
I did not compare bell height to determine measurement that's for sure , engine are way different !!
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[attachimg=1]
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help !
my reply window is way too wide I got to scroll right too much to reach the POST PREVIEW icons
Seems that the pics I've spraid allover are causing issues to my mac ??
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Some more cool drawings from cold winter days
This ugly ironic old crap has to give its ID [attach=3] [attach=5][attach=1][attach=2]
then compare to the block[attach=7][attach=6][attach=4]
few misalignements are noticed [attach=8]
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only this waterjeted [attach=1] all the rest will be a job !! to achieve such a result[attach=2][attach=4]
I'm concern on the elbow part & the location of the O2 sensors , heard on threads that water kills the lambada [attach=3]
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Hi I went to emarket & filled my mailbag with lots of goodyz [attach=1]
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Inox
Envoyé de mon iPad à l'aide de SoCal Jet Boats
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[attach=1][attach=3][attach=4][attach=2]
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Elbows are 76mm outside & 61mm for gas
Envoyé de mon iPad à l'aide de SoCal Jet Boats
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Flanges are doing very well , with a bit of cut & a bit of hammer it's building fast
Envoyé de mon iPad à l'aide de SoCal Jet Boats
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Elbow will be made with one 90° plus one half 90° , so 135°
Envoyé de mon iPad à l'aide de SoCal Jet Boats
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Nice bits between the sheets , should be transparent
Envoyé de mon iPad à l'aide de SoCal Jet Boats
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Since AC & Power steering are not so useful , i need to route the belt a bit shortly
If on the right side he belt goes straight down from water pump to crank , keeping the roller (but not tensionner) in place , that means the gen will have to be fixed adjustable
Envoyé de mon iPad à l'aide de SoCal Jet Boats
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[attach=1]
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Pulley talking , the boost will be raised by adding a bit of diameter on the crank one[attach=1]
some machine work to cut the one piece double pulley[attach=3][attach=4][attach=5]
Kit is pricey[attach=6] the ring alone costs 300€
but such as Loreal the blower system deserves it [attach=2]
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Thank you Mr Omidyar [attach=2][attach=3][attach=4][attach=1]
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AJ27S engine from a Jaguar XKR 4,0 2001
[attach=1][attach=3][attach=5][attach=4][attach=2]
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That is some serious work. Love the effort. Can't wait to see it done
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Thanks me to !
I keep going on & hopfully it will see a river but not of teers pleeeeease !!
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then the serious problemo is coming how do I start the engine ?
Stock ECU is a strong job to make it fully work
immo , gearbox , all security , index , parameters a nightmare I hate that
& if by chance I hear a caugh & then after it's having issues it will be a lifemare
Jaguar diag is limited & I wt have one at all ..
there are lots of offers in the ECU aftermarket & it's cheap
It will be fun to connect & to see the computer make the engine living
We have serious duds around here that build race cars with modules such as Sybele , Sodemo , DTA , Haltech , omex etc
could be done in a day !
The Jag is an all sequantial management v8 & need a big ECU , lots are for 4cyl
& then it needs a rare motor bench dyno when drum dynos are allover
well can't wait to see it done !!
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well things seems easyer than I thought
since I got whole lots of infos from Mr god Skynam in person
Their ECU Chalenger 6 [attach=1] is able to manage the total control of the engine for a bit more than 1000 $ !!
they will give all the tech support & all the hardware to make it work
Thanks http://www.skynam.com/
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[attach=1][attach=2][attach=4][attach=3]
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In order to fit the engine in , I need to make a spacer between the jag bell & the pump
I did a test fit & measured what was missing , around 60mm , with in mind a bit of play thX Flusher !!
i will start the thing with a piece of alu 300x200x60 (Attachment Link)
first is to check the bolt pattern & measurement of the bell , let's take the pied a coulisse (Attachment Link)
then all is drawn CAD on catia (Attachment Link)
It is so cool to see the part being revealed within some clicks (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)
The file will be forwarded to my mate directly into the Mill machine
then I 'll have it in real (Attachment Link)
smell like water jet suddenly!!! . oups it's me sorry ^-^
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some news because I won't quit
Engine Management is a big file on my desk , this is a hard subject for me , I'm posting everywhere to get infos
Hopfully with all the knowledges owning by some duds that are totally into it on some amazing website I should get throu it
Basically the process is to copy the Jag/Denso eprom and paste it into a Race ECU box , way more eazy to say.
I hate to have to wait for something or somebody to keep going , I'm use to make or find watever I need quite easyly
Like the exhaust manifold I just starded
[attach=2][attach=1][attach=4][attach=5][attach=7][attach=3][attach=6][attach=8]
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It fits ok , ports are matching better than stock iron cast
[attach=4][attach=2][attach=1][attach=3]
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I'm concerned about the quality of the header's , specially those weldings around the 4 to 1 area
Bought these 100$ on ebay.us , wonder if they ever seen america , it must come from China
I don't want any leaks now & in the future , with all the dilation / expansion it must works on the weak point
Seems well welded in fact but maybe to prevent craking if I deep the middle center octopussy mouth with high temp silicone & over the weldings & let it inside the double skin ?
It may work as vibes absorbtion..but It should not separate & mash with water causing a plug somewhere after..
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all is pointed , this fits not bad , to wide I think but there is room
[attach=2][attach=4][attach=7][attach=5]
starter & generator are very tight
[attach=3][attach=1]
[attach=8][attach=6]
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seems a bit little compares to the block
[attach=2][attach=1]
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Hey Wassup
the bell adapter just got back from the miller , it fits nikel chrome as we say
[attach=1][attach=3][attach=4][attach=6][attach=2][attach=5]
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it Fits even gold chrome as no ones says
[attach=1][attach=3][attach=4][attach=5][attach=2]
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Looking good
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Thanks BBC still a long way to the top if i want the r&r
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Let's try the graft
[attach=1][attach=4][attach=3]
Hargh there is rejection
[attach=2]
the bell is bottoming the pump
With a bit of surgery involving precise tools
[attach=5][attach=6] the b hole is widdened
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In case I don't end up mechanically ok , At least I can help people
Looks ok but the spacer is too thick , Ujoint needs to come further inside pump shaft like 10mm
[attach=2][attach=1]
Respecting a 5mm minimum play as I always knew on my own myself ;D
But I won't save anything with my surgery it needs to go back to Dr Miller himself
Headers are going tight but ok
[attach=3][attach=4]
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It Left only 20mm below the oil pan ..
[attach=1]
Btw how do I get the whole thing inline ? Does it need to ? There´s a U joint ....
Motor mounts are falling right above the stringers !!!
[attach=2][attach=3]
Btw what kind of rubbered or not silent blocks I may use ? Does it need to be solid bolted ?
On the pump side there is a small rubber ring around the pump nose
Thanks for help
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In case I don't end up mechanically ok , At least I can help people
Looks ok but the spacer is too thick , Ujoint needs to come further inside pump shaft like 10mm
(Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)
Respecting a 5mm minimum play as I always knew on my own myself ;D
But I won't save anything with my surgery it needs to go back to Dr Miller himself
Headers are going tight but ok
(Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)
The most critical dimension:
You need 3.2mm to 4.8mm clearance between the end of the drive line yoke and this snap ring.
This is critical so that the pump shaft doesn't push on the crankshaft thrust bearing. If the drive line binds up, it will destroy the engine minutes.
Measure from the bellhousing surface of the block to the flange of the crankshaft. Add this dimension to the thickness of the flywheel or flexplate, the thickness of the PTO, and the length of the drive line.
The assembled length of your bellhousing and adapter needs to be 3.2mm to 4.8mm longer (from the snap ring) than the above sum.
It's better to have too much clearance than not enough.
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It Left only 20mm below the oil pan ..
(Attachment Link)
Btw how do I get the whole thing inline ? Does it need to ? There´s a U joint ....
Motor mounts are falling right above the stringers !!!
(Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)
Btw what kind of rubbered or not silent blocks I may use ? Does it need to be solid bolted ?
On the pump side there is a small rubber ring around the pump nose
Thanks for help
20mm is plenty. You just don't want anything to rub when everything flexes.
It looks like you went to great lengths to draft out your adapter in CAD. I can only assume that where it mounts to the pump is concentric with the crankshaft.
You can drop the front of the engine down a few degrees. With fuel injection, it isn't an issue, but carburetor floats don't like excessive angle.
Mount the engine solid. I would try to reuse the mounts from your previous engine. Could you post up pictures of what you currently have and the sides of the engine block where the mounts bolt up?
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Thanks Flusher
Yes as you've teached me , I will keep 5mm of play
Unfortunatly when I've first installed the engine to determine the bell adapter lenght , I didn't noticed that the Ujoint adapter was not sat properly tight on the flywheel , I had to mill the midle so the crank protrude into it
Now the adapter is too long but I can mill it -10mm on the bell side
Yes concentric Ujoint/ pump shaft , this would be an issue I guess
i've drawn the adapter using the center hole in the bell as a base , assuming it was the center of the crank / gearbox
Looks like I'm not far , I can rotate the engine by hand (no sparkplugs !) seems very smooth from damper to impeller , even put a bit of starter on so this lived for the first time ever !! Electricaly ok ...
I will set the engine mounts so the bell adapter sit well flat on the pump
Solid motor mounts Ok , well this is bolted on a wood stringer so there is the vibes absorbtion
Other thing is I wanted to dismantle the end bowl of the pump to check the bearing & seals
Ex owner told me the pump was rebuilt , impeler looks new , but as It is accessible right now , a bit of look won't hurt
I´ve unbolt all the screws all around but how do you pull out the bowl , it is so hard to move !
Thanks again
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I´ve unbolt all the screws all around but how do you pull out the bowl , it is so hard to move !
Thanks again
Install two longer bolts, 180-degrees apart and located where you can motivate them with a hammer. Use a piece of bar stock or a long drift punch to get away from your work and beat everything up.
The longer bolts ensure that you have good thread engagement so you don't damage the threads in the bowl. Longer so the bowl has room to move before the head bottoms out. Lightly tap each bolt so that the bowl comes off evenly and doesn't get sideways on you.
Don't use a 3/4 drive impact reinstall the impeller nut. Put anti-seize on everything.
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Install two longer bolts, 180-degrees apart and located where you can motivate them with a hammer. Use a piece of bar stock or a long drift punch to get away from your work and beat everything up.
The longer bolts ensure that you have good thread engagement so you don't damage the threads in the bowl. Longer so the bowl has room to move before the head bottoms out. Lightly tap each bolt so that the bowl comes off evenly and doesn't get sideways on you.
Don't use a 3/4 drive impact reinstall the impeller nut. Put anti-seize on everything.
Good stuff....
GT
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Thanks seems that needs a fight like in a bad footbowl match :-\
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Did a bit of make up
[attach=2][attach=5][attach=3][attach=1][attach=4]
Blakson all over
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Got the bell plate back[attach=1][attach=2][attach=3]
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& since it will be a jag boat
Baaa it needs [attach=1][attach=2][attach=3][attach=5][attach=4][attach=6]jag seats as well
Out of a XJ6 1978 , same year ! , no mistake
Or just a lil on the back seats , head rest off & some better arrangement , this won't be plug & play
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Good luck. Send more pics
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Thanks Mattson ;)
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Hi I've been thinking how to built the motor mounts & i end up With a wierd shovel pie
[attach=4][attach=1][attach=2][attach=3]
This is going ok for a reconversion job
[attach=5][attach=6][attach=7]
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It would need a slice of something inbetween
Like a teflon or a polyurethan pad
May work against bad vibes
[attach=2][attach=3]
All will be bolted together taking the stringer in sandwich , to end with the kitchen bazar
Some bell mounts are in the R&D schedule as well , so the engine will have 4 mounts & the pump clamp
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I seriously think that is way too light!!!
Solid mount it with a minimum of three 10mm through-bolts and backing plates or stringer washers per side.
Your original mounts are most likely made out 6.4mm (1/4") mild steel.
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Yes seems a bit thin in pic but made of 3mm stainless
It will bolted by 3x10mm on stringers & those 4x10 on the block each sides
& 2 more mounts on the bell with 3x10mm on the bell & 3x10mm on the stringer each sides
We are talking 26 x 10mm to hold the thing !!
Stock XKR mounts are very light aluminium with 1x10mm bolt on the silent block
Stock glastron are 3mm steel badly shaped for the cast 350kg Ford compares to the alu 200kg Jag
Doesn't afraid me that much
And since it is solid mounted I'd rather see a rifted mount than a rifted block ?
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[attach=1][attach=3][attach=2]