SoCal Jet Boats
Tech Talk => Projects => Topic started by: The Chaz on March 06, 2007, 08:44:15 PM
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I got this boat last weekend. Decided to scrap the 73' Schuster project and get something ready for the coming season. The guy that sold it to me said the Olds 455 had a "slight" knock, which, upon starting, sounds like a crank problem. I pulled it for now and am preparing to install the the Ford 460 I built.
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Anyways, upon pulling the enging I found a rotten stringer. It looks to be only on the front left corner so far. Will I have to replace it before I can install the new motor, or can I put a rail in there for now and bolt the rail to rest of the stringer for support? My 460 should be just under 500 HP. Also I am wondering if someone can give me advise or, better yet, help me drill/ cut (for the starter) the new motor mounts. I have never owned a jet boat before and really dont know anyone,so any help would be greatly appreciated. I am in San Diego BTW. I will get more pics tommrrow to see if that helps get me some suggestions.
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That guy has been trying to sell that boat for a while now. Good looking boat. Tha 455 is worth a mininum of $500 the way it sits, probably closer to $700. Keep that in mind when you go to sell it. marcsrollin here on this site knows more about the 455 than I do, but the Olds car guys LOVE marine 455's! He's also done a 455/Ford sawp and maybe even a 455/chevy swap, not sure.
You said the one stringer was a little bit rotten, is the boat a 1/4 stringer? 1/3? 3/4? full stringer? Need more info. If you don't know just post a pic of the stringers.
Not sure what your going to cut/drill for the starter, sounds like you got some bad info...
El Cajon!
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The mount for the Olds (not pictured) was cut away at the starter. I assumed this would need to be done to the new ones for the Ford so that the mount can be slid in far enough to center the motor between the stringers. Srtingers end at the bolt holes for the front of the engine, so 1/4?
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Excellant picture!
You're going to need to trim that material off of your new undrilled stringer mount to get it to "slide" on far enough so you can drill the holes into the stringer mount in the right place. Sounds like you're on the right track. You'll bolt the stringer mounts to the engine mounts, drop the motor in the hull in order to drill the stringers properly once the driveshaft angle is correct.
1/4 stringer is correct. Got a pic or two of the stringer rot?
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Here are pics of the bad stringer, I have no idea is the new motor will bolt all the on the end of the stringers or closer to the stern... Also bench grinder, die grinder, torch to trim the mount?
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Your best bet is to just fix it . Band-aides just get worse.
-beerjet-
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Something I can do with NO experience? Tips, advice, need to take it to someone? Price... the dreaded question :o
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That's some pretty bad rot brother :( . A band-aid like liquid nails might maybe possibly cross yer fingers do it but probably not. A stringer replacement is probably in order. Have you ever fiberglassed before? Poke around the projects forum through some old posts here on this site and you'll see a transom getting replaced which is just as hairy :o of a project. JP Marine in Lakeside can give you a qoute, also try Ultra boats in Lakeside... Got more time than money or more money than time :-\
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OK the boat went to Ultra Boats to a stringer replacement. My next question is if any of you 460 guys can tell me how to attach an alternator. Is there a part available for purchase or do I need to have somehting fabricated? If fabrication is the key any tips on who could do this for me?
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Good decision on the stringer part of your project.
I'm not a Ford guy, I'll let others here give you a heads up on that altenator mount purchase.
On the flip side, I"ve made a lot of altenator mounts in my days if you can't locate one... ;)
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One more thing, what brand of front engine mount do you have and what brand and style is your altenator? Got pics?
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ha ha ha, I keep replying to myself. ??? ;D
Your rear engine mount is Gaurdian/Glenwood style, If your front mount marches the rear mount one of the altenator attachment points is on that front engine mount. The top of the altenator mounts to a bracket that allows the altenaotr to swing for adjustment purposes. ;)
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This is what I have right now, Alt came off an early 70's 460, I am going to get it tested today. I want to test the boat out next Friday, probably go to Elsinore. I assume it wont hurt to test it a bit if I dont get the alt hooked up before then...
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Yeah, it's different than my BBC alt. set-up.
There's plenty of Ford guys on here to give out a hand, where in the hell are they?? ??? >:(
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ok chaz mine was this way(https://www.socaljetboats.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hotboatpics.com%2Fpics%2Fdata%2F500%2F12022engine1_220.jpg&hash=dc4daae35923bbe8964a6b15760b4edf9969da5e)
then i moved it to the other side. the top bolt is just a peice of all thread that screwed into the head
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hope this helps.
ralph
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What are you using/ where did you get the spacer that holds the alt away from the block?
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it's just your basic spacer that we had laying around the garage. however, you can go get some round stock and drill a hole through the middle of it and cut to the length you need.
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I have a new concern... I pulled my logs yesterday and found 6 of the exhaust ports covered with an oil film. This is after a 25 min cam break in run on a 100% freshly rebuilt engine. Is that something that will correct itself after the rings set in a little? Or maybe too much pre oil in the cilyinders when I built it? It ran perfectly and started right up, so I am just curious/worried about the oil.
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Here are the new stringers. They look pretty good! Gonna try and get an engine bolted in there On Wednsday. Let me know of any tips on installation as this is my 1st attempt...
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chaz do they still have holes to bolt the motor in?? if not you will need an angle finder to find out what angle to set the motor in at, or you will have VIBRATION. you will need to set the angle finder on the pump shaft and see what degree the pump is in at, should be around 4 deg. if my memory serves me correct my motor is in at 5deg because my pump is at 4.
i think as long as you stay 1to3 degrees from the angle of the pump shaft you will be ok. before you drill step back and eyeball it. IF IT DOESNT LOOK RIGHT ADJUST ACCORDINGLY.
just my .02 ralph
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no holes... where can I get one of these angle finders?
Is it something I can do with a level?
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I don't know what an angle finder is either ???
Anywho, did they replace both stringer's?
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Maybe they still have your old stringers in the dumpster for a hole location/pattern. ???
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Problem is I'm installing an different engine too... will need new bolt holes I assume, anyways... The guy at Jet Boat Performance told me to call him when I was ready to do it and he would "talk" me thru the installation so I hope He can help ::)
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Right on. I'm sure since marcsrollin did it anyone can.
Hi Marc. ;D ;D ;D
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do a google search for angle finder i found a pic of the one i have at sj discount tools .com
central toos 6494
I AM NOT ENDORCING THIS COMPANY it was just a pic i found
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Harbor Freight had one for $5.99 ;D Anyways here is what I did today. Got all the way to scribing the feet. Tommrrow I will try and get it all bolted in O0
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I called Tom at http://www.jetboatperformance.com and he guided me thru this part. By the way that is where I got all my hardware for converting a street engine to marine. Before anyone else says it I need to move the the engine back about another 1/4" Hopefully this wlll give me enough stringer to bolt to :o
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Looks killer!
I've seen 2 jet boats with 1/4 sringers that both had ditched a 455 and they were both just like that. One of them the stringers were partially rotten.
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You should use stainless hardware on those stringers. ;)
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looks good chaz but why cant you move the engine back????? you only need 1/4 inch of play from the pump shaft to the back of the yoke. i'm concernd that you will rip the stringer out with the torque of the big ford.
call tom again and have him look at the pics you posted and see what he says, before you bolt it in.
i just dont want you to fock up your hard work.
ralph
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what's the virdict on this Chaz
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I have never attempted anything so difficult in my life... I have been trying to get this thing in for 3 days. 30 hrs and I have most of the bolts thru the stringers. Tommrrow I will have to remove all the feet and try to redrill the holes that I couldnt get to go thru. I built a foot for the front so it wouldn't have to be close to the endge of that stringer. If anyone knows if I have to "ream out" the hole I drilled to get it to fit porperly should I fill the hole with liquid nails or something? I dont think it will matter as I have two of three bolts in all the stringers at this point. Also should I be treating the holes with anything to keep water out?
Thanks,
Charles
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chaz you say ream out, but how much is the ?? but hey i cant drill a hole to save my life :P
all i do is use some silicone when i put my bolts through. hope this helps
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STOP !!!!
Call me quick !!!
Jim
928-542-7712
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WTF? ???
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The PCS telepohone you have just dialed is not in service...
What's up?
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My wife just called works fine.
Give me a call...
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http://www.socaljetboats.com/index.php?topic=237.0
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You really should just leave us all hanging, that way we can make the same mistake he made... ???
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You really should just leave us all hanging, that way we can make the same mistake he made... ???
OK !!!!
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Damnit Jim! (from Star Trek ;D )
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Well, I got it in. Tommrrow I hook up the wires and maybe get to go water test it ;D Ordered my Sea Goin? Poxy to fill the stringer holes, so I will have to pull all the bolts again when that gets here. I will be replacing all the bolts with stainless steel also. 40 hours of work to install an engine. If had to do it again I would have paid the $300 Ultra Custom boats quoted me to install it. I can't remember the last time I worked that hard on something. Oh well, I guess I have always been a Shade tree mechanic at heart. ;)
Thanks to Jim and your wife @ Emanoin Performance Marine for the very late night tips.
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Ah hah! and he thought he could keep it a secret! >:D ;D
Say The Chaz, where'd ya' buy that sea goin' 'poxy from?
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Rex Marine. http://shopping.rexmar.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=epoxyseagoin
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Ah hah! and he thought he could keep it a secret! >:D ;D
Say The Chaz, where'd ya' buy that sea goin' 'poxy from?
nope you told me to
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Did you watch Star Trek back in the day or did I throw you for a loop? >:D ;D
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Is there a certain kind of silicone I should use to install my thru transom hardware?
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alt pic
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My cell's battery died, speaking of charging batteries. ;)
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Does anyone have pics or a good description of the best way to plumb the water from the jet thru manifolds and risers? I have currently, line from jet to short hose, to T, one end of t has ball valve to garden hose fitting, other end goes to gate valve then splits to the front of the block(old water pump inlets) exits from thermo housing to front of both manifolds, then to risers. Will this work here in So cal where the water never gets really cold? I think I read that I need to go from jet to manifolds front, then back of manifolds to front of block and finally thermo to risers... this seems like a lot of hoses. What do you guys think? will I be ok with my current set upor do I have to change something before I go put it in the water tommrrow?
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It's somewhere else on this site (?) but here it is again.
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Project is no longer a project :)
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now that my friend........ is beautifull!!!!!
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8) Good Job !!!!
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Nice boat :o
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Thanks to EVERYONE who gave me tips and advice, I'm gonna try it out tommrrow at El Capitan about Noonish if anyone want to come. Need to break in the engine and get her all dialed in with a timing light etc. I started it up with the water hose for a min and I almost danced a jig when I heard it rumble ;D
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Looks sweet The Chaz. ;)
I'd like to go but I have a side job, I'm wiring up some guy's boat trailer. ;D
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So I know you had plans to take your new to you boat out, how did it do? ???
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Engine problems... Still can't get my valve clatter problem fixed. Any Ford guys out there that can help me?
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Hell, allmost all of 'em here are Ford guys, 'cept me and a couple of other smarter un's. ;D
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Here are a couple pics of my rockers. Are these considered adjustable or non-adjustable?
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those are adjustable.
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Well, my book says for adjustable rockers to tighten them until you can just barly spin the push rods, however I did this and some of the bolts are barely past finger tight. Turned them 1/4 turn more and they came off when I tested it at the lake today. I tightened them back down to torque and I get valve lash or a tapping sound when I get above 2000 RPM's I am very confused. I changed them from all torqued and got compression back in 2 cylinders, but now I can't get above 200 RPM's, before I made the change I could get to 3200... Any ideas would be great
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chaz i think i would be taking care of all the rusty parts, what does the rest of the engine look like???
if you want to adjust the rockers while the engine is running just get a peice of cardboard and sit in the head by the bottome valve cover gasket rail, start your engine and loosen each rocker individually until it starts to clatter then tighten until it stops, then 1/4 turn and repeat 15 times.
i hope you understand what i'm trying to tell you
just trying to help
ralph
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OK, here is the only way on this planet you should be adjusting your valves, period.
Open and print it out and take it with you when you do your valve adjustment.
http://www.cranecams.com/?show=faq&id=3
Simple easy done !
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OK, If my rockers are indeed adjustable... THe article says to lock the adjuster into position. There is nothing to lock the adjuster on my engine...
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??? What would cause both push rods on a cylinder to bend from just turing the engine with the starter? I can see both valves moving... there is no noise of it hitting something... felt inside plug hole with my finger as far as I could, and didnt feel anything on the piston surface... WTF??
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i dont know what the rest of the these guys are telling u but those are NOT adjustable rockers it all looks stock. you torqe them down and thats is it .onlything that looks out of place is the rocker shaft they look like they have been cut down for adj rockers do u know if those are stock or what ???
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i dont know what the rest of the these guys are telling u but those are NOT adjustable rockers it all looks stock. you torqe them down and thats is it .onlything that looks out of place is the rocker shaft they look like they have been cut down for adj rockers do u know if those are stock or what ???
Look at the pic those push rods had guide plates.
The stock push rod is 6.800 for that rail adjustable stud mount rocker. What has been done to the heads ? What push rods do you have in it ?
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??? What would cause both push rods on a cylinder to bend from just turing the engine with the starter? I can see both valves moving... there is no noise of it hitting something... felt inside plug hole with my finger as far as I could, and didnt feel anything on the piston surface... WTF??
Improper adjustment !
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there is no adj on those rockers had the same ones when mine was stock are those the right length push rods ??
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I got confirm that they are not adjustable. I torqued them all down ran the boat still had the "ticking" problem and decided to check all cylinders compression. #2 had 0. I pulled the rockers and intake had bent push rod. I did however, change all the nuts, they are for adjustable I guess as they have crimped threads. I got new push rods today put it in and it bent as well as the exhaust for that same cylinder. I thought maybe I didnt have them set on the lifter (a HUGE maybe as I triple checked) so I put in another in intake that was for a 1970" that I had got a while back by accident it is a little longer" at 0 lash worked. Tightened it to torque fine. Turned it over 3 reveloutions bent.
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I also noticed just now that the orig. nuts have no threads at the bottom maybe 1/4" up. New ones have threads all the way down, just crimped.
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This is a quote out of the book, Ford performance.
These rocker are not recomended for any sort of performance use because they will not allow for adjustment, they can chafe or chew the valve stems
Change your studs and get a good set of rockers and guides a set of the proper length push rods and your done flocking around.
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The best rockers for the money;
http://www.460ford.com/viewtopic.php?t=11549
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The heads, as well as everything on this motor were redone by machine shop. New valves/seals, ported polished etc. The crazy part is I dont think this is the cylinder that is causing the noise It was working properly before I put the new nuts and ran it maybe 20 mins under 3000 RPMS as if it were adjustable. I got the noise the same as before so I decided to put them back to 20lbs torque as reccomended by Paul @ high flow dynamics. ran fine under 3000 RPM'sS. Retarded the timing Way back and got the ticking to stop. It just wouldn't start that far retarded, let alone the HP loss.
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If you change to regular studs they will work fine. As long as your rocker arm geomitry is correct.
I totally for got those studs had a seat on them. But you have another problem too. Not sure what it is but it sounds like the lash is too tight so check push rod length.
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If I buy those rockers, I need new studs too right? Also I think I read somewhere that stock valve covers wouldnt work for roller rockers, but I could be wrong there.
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This is a quote out of the book, Ford performance.
Change your studs and get a good set of rockers and guides a set of the proper length push rods and your done flocking around.
Like I told you before if everything is stock it will work if not you have to start over from ground 0 !
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All the rods are the same length, I checked that. Stock 1969 length, not sure what that is exactly, but in 1970 the get a touch longer.
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Look at the pic those push rods had guide plates.
The stock push rod is 6.800 for that rail adjustable stud mount rocker. What has been done to the heads ? What push rods do you have in it ?
I am sorry they were 8.680 stock
If I buy those rockers, I need new studs too right? Also I think I read somewhere that stock valve covers wouldnt work for roller rockers, but I could be wrong there.
right !
If you get some newer ones they are shorter 8.55
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All the rods are the same length, I checked that. Stock 1969 length, not sure what that is exactly, but in 1970 the get a touch longer.
You will pretzlize a push rod if it is .060 too long !
Stop !
The first thing you need to do is find out why this is happening.
Just call me !
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Somebody shoot ove to Chaz place and square it up for him, Please.
Or just bring it to me.
I will fix it for free !
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Mother F'er it looks like the new rod is a tiny bit longer than the orig. They still sold me the wrong one. Guess I call NAPA again, they got the correct size last time. Thanks for the fix offer, too bad it's 360 miles over there :-\ and my tow rig was diagnosed with a bent frame today. I will try again and see if I can get the correct size. maybe that will keep it from bending. Only $1 to try I guess.
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Yep, guy at NAPA "with 30 yrs exp" :P said the pre april heads are shorter. and has them in stock. let you know what happens in a few.
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even if u buy adj rockers they still wont work with out cutting down the stud bosses to keep the gyo right.or your wasting your time
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Call me asap ! I have an idea !
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Read this, check your PMs, I called Scott and told him what was going on hopefully he can get you pointed in the right direction.
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OK, I installed the slightly shorter than stock ones and all seems well. I figure I'll loose a few HP but I'm not racing the boat, yet. Gonna try it out tommrrow on the water, again... and see how it goes.
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WOW, quite a thread ya' got going. They are adjustable, they are not adjustable, bent pushrods, geez.
Slow the flock down. The rocker arms are not of the adjustable type, however... you do have an adjustable valevetrain. That nut that holds the rocker on - that's where you adjust it at.
Rocker arm adjustment: back off rocker arm nut several turns, wait a couple minutes (skip if you have new lifters), as you spin the pushrod with your fingers tighten the nut until you feel a slight resistance on the pushrod. Turn nut 1/2 to one full turn clockwise (tighten). You are done adjusting your valve.
As for the pushrod bending you only have a couple of choices as to why it's happening. One the valve is hitting the piston. Two the rocker arm is binding. Since I am not a Ford guy I don't know if it's common to use different length pushrods (which would make it bind if the pushrod is at the wrong length, in a Chevy it is not common. I would think you could hear a piston hitting a valve, but I doubt you would here a pushrod binding. Another way to get a bent pushrod is if it's hitting the guide plate in it's travel. Do a visual check.
I still think the cam is off (teeth) or the firing order/distributor placement is off, the problem sounds like firing order problems, but then again you're getting bent pushrods. ;)
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All went well yesterday. At 1st ::) After an attempt to find top speed with a borrowed GPS, I hit some chop, went airborn, ;D and stalled when I landed. Wouldn't restart. Traced problem to blown fuse to fuel pump changed it for something else... no extras, and got it running, headed back and another blew. Ended up getting towed back :-\ I have a short somewhere, but when that is found and fixed I should be able to go around 65. I'm sure more once I get my pump rebuilt, but It's ok for now since I really didnt build it for racing, supposed to be a compromise between performance (for me) and Family boat (for the kids).
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sweeeet. ;D
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glad to here u got it running have fun and party up ;D
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Arrgh... The life of owning a jet boat... I got stranded today. Something shorted again.. I guess, I melted my fingers touching the Pos on my batt and a wire came unsoldered it was so hot. Seemed to get plenty of gas, got an infrequent fire, and let it sit. Later got it to start and run for about 5 sec. Brought it home and it fired right up but I was getting back fires out of the carb. Adjusted the dist to a bit more advance and ran better, but seemed to want to do the same thing. Flames in the carb after a high rev and shut off. Could the valve train problem I was having before be causing this? It ran perfect the last 2 times out and 1/2 of today then all of a sudden a couple backfires and here I sit bitch'in. At the lake I thought it was an ignition problem, not getting any, but as soon as I tried at home it ran. Any Ideas ???
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it sounds like its in the timing how much compression do u have the more comp u have the less timing u need but hey look at it this way being stranded on a lake is better then any day working
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I still think the cam is off (teeth) or the firing order/distributor placement is off, the problem sounds like firing order problems... ;)
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have you done anything since the last two times out? if not something changed by it's self i think the other guys may be on to something with the timing. but why did you have to burn your fingers? do you have a fire ext on your boat? if not i would get one before you burn something up. jmho
ralph
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Yeah, I carry an extinguisher and I had no idea the battery terminal was going to be hot until I touched it. :o
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now i'm no electrition but i would think that you have a verry high current draw some place. i dont think it should be that hot. ???
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now i'm no electrition but i would think that you have a verry high current draw some place. i dont think it should be that hot. ???
I am and you're right, it shouldn't be - EVER. Something on that boat is shorted. Slightly warm = normal, hot and burning your fingers = bad.
If you want to figure it out yourself you'll need a meter with current draw capabilities. When you first hook up the meter it will show a large draw, disconnect electrical parts until the draw goes away, once the draw is gone hook up everything you disconnected except the last part you disconnected, make sure the draw is still gone (watch the meter as you hook the parts back up), you will end up (hopefully) with one part that is either mis-wired or is bad in need of replacement. This is a lot easier in cars, they have fuses on everything and thereby blow a fuse when something is wrong. ;D
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hey hot rod, why isnt there a fusebox on boats hmmmmmmm or can it be done???????? ::)
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they have DC Waterproof Fuse Panel
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hey hot rod, why isnt there a fusebox on boats hmmmmmmm or can it be done???????? ::)
Go to Marine.com
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hey hot rod, why isnt there a fusebox on boats hmmmmmmm or can it be done???????? ::)
The older jets have a circuit breaker that is mounted on the plate that holds the terminal strip for all of the engine's wiring on the back of the engine. Those circuit breakers are ? 20+ years old and most have been broken off and "by-passed" along the way through the years.
The standard 20 + year old jet boat has very little to it (stock!) and they could get away with one circuit breaker on the entire boat. They had gauges and maybe a bow and stern light - maybe. No stereo's, electric fuel pumps, etc... When they were new they didn't need fuses. Actually they still don't need fuses, the one circuit breaker is fine as long as the boat remains electrically stock.
A complete guess, "The Chaz's" boat has had it's circuit breaker removed, by-passed, or just doesn't work anymore.
The newer boats run waterproof fuse panel's, they have to. They have a lot of electrical on them.
Any boat can be retro fitted with anything electrically speaking. A friend of mine and I went to Parker one year and I installed (for the trip) a MTX 12 and a 600W MTX amp on his 14' fishing boat! LMFAO Yes, I used fuses. ;)
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rod you are the man, i was hoping you woulld chime in.
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Well I am thinking the heat was just caused from excessive (very excessive ) cranking the starter trying to restart and not blow too far from the beach where my daughter and all my gear were. I do have fuses under the dash of my boat, 20 amps ,5 I believe. However, the engine must come out. I checked compression today and had none on the 1st cylinder I tested. Thinking this may have been the same crap I had before with different cylinders and valves not closing completely I pulled the valve cover and removed the rockers from that clyinder, retested, no compression >:( From What I can see and feel thru the plug hole the piston may be OK, I'm guessing burnt/bent valve at min. Also noticed the spark plug had zero gap :o Something must have hit it. I also noticed that the rocker made dents on the spring retainer, so I am guessing the valve slipped down a bit, hit the piston and bent/broke. Hopefully its fixable... I cant afford another engine :-\
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That suks!
Your battery terminal will get hot (remove the EVER in previous post) if you're trying to start an unstarting engine for a long period of time. A friend's Eliminator has a fuse box similar to yours under his dash as well. I think it may have to do with how "new"/year of the boat.
I still think cam/ignition timing/firing order/placement is off on your engine. I guess at this point it really doesn't matter until the new problems are fixed.
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Once I get it apart is it difficult to dial in the cam? I just lined up the dots (on the cam and lower timing chain gear)last time I installed it? Or is it something I need to take and have an expert do?
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do u still have the cam card it will tell u where to put it at , if somthing crushed the plug more than likely there is a hole in the piston or u broke part of the tulip of the valve let me know if u need ford parts that are stock have tons and acess to tons
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OK thanks, I was debating swapping the heads for some that are already set up. I noticed that LakesOnly @ High Flow Dynamics had some of the same model as me the C9VE-A I believe. It will depend if there is any other damage that needs attention...$$$ :o
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the 69 s are good heads i have a 460 crank rods pistons if needed for dirt cheap
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Cam install is lining up the dots, not sure where they need to be pointed in a Ford. You can also degree the cam instead of lining up the dots but degreeing cams is over my head. ??? Some manufacturers don't have the timing marks/alignment marks at 0 so that's why mechanics degree a cam when installing it. In my Chevy I lined up the dots, but it ain't running yet either. ;D
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yeah thats why u need the cam card it will tell u where to put it get a degree wheel i belive its set straight up if mem serves right then u can degree forward or back depending what u want or u can just line up the dots lots of them have three or four dots for timing
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Maybe I'm missing something, but my cam can only be adjusted by changing it 1 link in the chain left or right of the 1 dot I lined up with the dot ont on the crank gear. 1 Link would be quite a few degrees I believe. I put pics once I get it apart :-\
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then if thats all then thats it , the timing should be fine some of the timing chain sets you can move all over depending on where u want the power ,do u know if the dist is of like 180 check for tdc on the comp stroke and c where your at might be on the back side of it ???
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Here is the cause of all my troubles... Just as I suspected from the start; Valves kissing Pistons. Now to figure out what to do next.
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This is the only real bad one. It actually bent the valve it looks like. The other 3 just nicked it. Could this be from valve float due to still having the original springs.
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if it touched any of the other valves there bent no matter change them . either your pushrods are to long or you floated the valves but usaully it bends push rods not valves i would check for proper pushrod length then piston to valve clearence
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The cam is basicly an RV cam so not at all aggressive, the pistons, dished, pushrods were stock length and original(mostly except the ones that bent and got replaced. The only thing I can think of is maybe the machine shop milled my heads down a bunch and didnt tell me. Or the valves were floating as I could only hear the hitting at 3000+ RPM's and under load. I'm gonna call J P Marine tommrrow and see if Joe can look at them. My neighbor ( a marine Mechanic) told me the pistons would be OK to still use. He said just replace the bent valves and get the springs and rod lengths checked. Do you agree with this, just so I don't get a bunch of stuff done that I may not need.
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do u have the both heads off ??? if so u can see if there the same deck height also if its only doing it on certian cylendrs then it has to be in the push rods also sometimes there can be shims onfor differnt length valves just enough to throw it out of wak deffinetly have it looked at if you can get new springs the do it it wont hurt have the istalled height check ed and pushrod length checked that way u know what your piston to valve clrnc is
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if it touched any of the other valves there bent no matter change them . either your pushrods are to long or you floated the valves but usaully it bends push rods not valves i would check for proper pushrod length then piston to valve clearence
If the pushrods are too long or too short they're going to move the valve the same amount of distance either way. I doubt if it's pushrod length.
I'm definately not an expert but if the valve is floating why would it do so much damage to the piston? It seems (maybe?) that if they were floating they might hit the piston but I wouldn't think it would do that much damage to the piston. I could easily be wrong. Here's a thought (scary I know), since the valve springs weren't changed maybe some of them have those valve spring washer's/spacer's under them and some of the spring's don't have them? They are used to adjust the tension on the valve. If the spring has a washer under it the spring may be collapsing before the valve is done with it's travels causing a bent pushrod, and maybe the valves that are hitting the pistons don't have a spacer? ??? ???
If you don't want to spend the cash to replace all of the valves just lapp them to check them for their straightness.
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The other 3 damaged pistons are just very small nicks, the one pictured is the only one that the valve is bent and stuck open, it does still treavel up and down just doesnt close all the way now as it appears the retainer for the spring has moved. The rocker is actually riding on the spring retainer and has made a dent in it. The others where the small nicks are look to be much closer to the rocker as well. Are they adjustable? Also, I am ready to have someone either fix this or just replace the heads with working ones, whichever is cheaper. I called JP Marine and he said to call Ed Hale Automotive. No answer or call back since this morning. Any reccomendations on a good trustworthy place to take this to get it looked at and estimate given? I'm in San Diego
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Well I decided to call the Machine Shop that did all the work on my engine and they said it may be covered by warranty. They sold me everything on the motor except the intake and I did all the assembly. So even though I really don't want to go back to them, I guess I will if the repairs are going to be free :) Maybe I'll get real lucky and get new pistons out of the deal too ;D
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Beutifull ;D
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Dropped off the heads at the Machine shop for them to inspect, here is a pic of my timing chain at TDC.
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I also noticed that only intake valves are hitting, and they were the ones replaced by the machine shop so...
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By any chance you dident get the work done at New Tech did you?
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Wholesale Automotive Machine on Mission Gorge Rd.
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Machine shop called, the push rods that came with my engine were not from a Ford 460... They are Way too long. I think he said .130 or something like that. Guess thats why they looked like they had guides on them before. Got 4 new valves put in, new seats and a couple new seals. It was enough that it is possible that the lifters could not compensate (according to the shop) I'm getting 2 new different length sets made for my year. I was told the rod should stop spinning about 1/4 turn from tight on my nonadjustable rockers. And I'm going to do a clay on the piston test before I torque it all down to see just how much valve to piston clearance I have. God I hope my troubles are over, I am missing a weekend of boating :'(
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OK, here's the deal. I tried the shorter rod in #1 intake at TDC. Tightened the nut and got to the end of threads before I got to zero lash. Tried the same rod in the exhaust for the same cylinder got zero lash before the end of the threads... The longer rod catches threads in the intake and could be torqued. I only snugged the head because I am going to take it off and check the valve to piston clearance after I get the rod situation figured out. I don't understand why the shorter one would work on exhaust and not intake. Maybe the stud it sits onis worn out and lets the rocker get closer to the head? Any ideas?
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i like your sig line chaz ;D
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Thanks ;D I made it myself, thats my boat on the sides ;)
I have nailed down the problem, I think :o The local 460 Guru talked me thru a process of elimination reason the the correct length push rods seemed to be too short. 10 of my rockers are worn out. My guess is they wore out, the previous owner swapped for the longer push rods to try and compensate, he bent a rod and sold the engine to me...
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I finished putting the engine back together ;D Tommrrow it goes back in the boat, and if nothing leaks(gasket wise) I'm gonna fire it up, and take her for a test run. O0 I've been going thru withdrawals... I need my water fix ;D ;D
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If I get my oil leak fixed , I plan on being out there Sunday!
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Well the oil leak should be fixed we'll find out Sunday! Hope to see you there Chaz!
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It LIVES :) Well it fired right up at least, the manifolds were off so I didnt let it run but a second. My wife has people coming over tonight so I didn't have time to finish. I will be going to El Capitan probably tommrrow for the test, and maybe Sunday too with my family. I'll let you know for sure tommrrow. Hope I see you there, what does your boat look like so I can try and find you?
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;D >:D ;D >:D ;D[attachimg=#]
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My friend works at M2O Marine and tested the coil. Said it is fried. Kragen gave me a replacement Accel Super Coil at no charge and I put it in today. Fired up without hesitation ;D Gonna try it out at El Capitan tommrrow ::)
Think I'll skip the suds (at least in large quanitys ;))
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Read through this again, this thing has come a long way, but a year later and I am still hoping to have the valve problem fixed :-\
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Gonna try it out at El Capitan tommrrow ::)
Think I'll skip the suds (at least in large quanitys ;))
Good luck! I'm sure it'll be great. Make sure you tell us all how well it ran.......john