SoCal Jet Boats
Discussion => The No Wake Zone => Topic started by: nolongergreen on March 30, 2013, 07:00:43 PM
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Hello everyone!
Im new to the whole jet boating thing myself and just wanted to get some advice from some of the seasoned pros on here.
I just bought a 1969 Esquire jet boat without an engine and dropped in a 460 since that was what its set-up for. It seems to run well but I want more!
I made the mistake of not putting a cam in it since at the point of all this I had not had it in the water yet I just wanted to make sure it floats so i went as stock as possible to keep it cheap.
Good news it floats but its not a performer. It ran today at about 54 miles an hour, so quick to get there but thats all it has.
I was hoping for some suggestions on a cam or other mods to get more out of it. Im only turning 4200 rpms and cant get anymore. I know that the motor came out of a service truck and had an rv cam in it which I believe to be the main problem.
So far the mods are :
bassett water injected headers
weind intake
holley 650 double pumper
hei distributer
Thanks for any suggestions on a good cam set up or anyrhing else you can help with.
Also its a berkley jet
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You're going to need more carb to go along with a better cam. Can't really reccomend a cam but atleast an 850dp
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So far the mods are :
bassett water injected headers
You running mufflers?
weind intake
Which one?
holley 650 double pumper
Woops... Here in lies the issue. With a jet pump, the jet can absorb every ounce of torque the motor can muster up. This lowers the vacuum pulled by the engine by a huge amount, making it difficult for the engine to pull in air. A larger carburetor will get more air into the motor by simple physics.
hei distributer
Any idea what your running the max timing at?
Thanks for any suggestions on a good cam set up or anyrhing else you can help with.
Also its a berkley jet
Any idea what impeller you have and what RPM it will run at.. Also, how do you run the boat?
With just a bit more information, I'm sure some of the talent on here can recommend a killer combo. If it was a bow tie, I could be of more help, but with the tricky valve train geometry of the Ford, I am probably not your huckleberry.
GT
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if your looking to get a better cam call the cam manufacturer of your choice ask them what they recommend. and like gt jet im not a ford guy hard to say.
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whats the casting number on the heads d3?
prolly get more bang for buck with a diverter
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Its a weind stealth intake
No mufflers
As far as the timing, the distributer is set up like it came as far as the advance. The timing tab is not on the cover so we just set it best we could by feel and sound.
To get it right I know we need to take the time to put timing tape on the balancer and come up with a timing tab.
Obviuosly im not a mechanic, I own a Carpet Cleaning company. Ask me about carpet, I can give you answers.
Im just trying to get a feel for what I can expect to get from this motor/ boat.
I spoke with a supposive "legend" here locally who told me to change the cam and toss the distributer for a msd and he would "cut me a deal" by installing them for only $2500.00. I almost laughed in his face. The best part is he told me that the best I would see out of the boat after spending the 2500 would be about 55mph, lol. I hit that yesterday like it sits.
Im just looking for advice before I order something thats not going to work right.
Another thing I keep getting is that one of the worst things I can do is put too big of a carb on it but I had an s-10 with a 355 in it with a 750 dp so im lost on why everyone around here is thinking a 750 or larger is going to be too big. I dont see how, or at least to a point.
I have a buddy who will install the cam and set everything up for around 150.00 so Im just looking to see suggestions before I break out the wallet.
What are these things capable of top speed ect. with a basically stock motor with a cam?
The guy I bought the boat from has about 15,000 just in his motor. Im not looking to go crazy like that, just basic bolt on stuff.
Thanks,
Steven
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asking your boat to do say around 65 is a good start. if your buddy is a mechanic have him find a couple of cams and have him show you the specs of them id say start with something mild. you dont want a really radical cam with a stock motor. it just wont work.
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Barrow a larger carb from a friend and see if that helps. If its a stock motor u should be able to get a timming tab from a junk yard. then set your timming for total advance. two good places to start.
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A good reliable combination for the 460 is try to find a set of c8ve or dove c heads which should give you 10-1 compression and get a cam kit from comp cams 305h with springs and lifters. And a 850 Cfm with 50cc accelerater pumps . You can shop this out and find all parts and gaskets for under 1500.00 and you will be twisting 5800 Rpms ,depending on what's inside your pump, you got a great start its a ford
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A good reliable combination for the 460 is try to find a set of c8ve or dove c heads which should give you 10-1 compression and get a cam kit from comp cams 305h with springs and lifters. And a 850 Cfm with 50cc accelerater pumps . You can shop this out and find all parts and gaskets for under 1500.00 and you will be twisting 5800 Rpms ,depending on what's inside your pump, you got a great start its a ford
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5800 rpm will sprinkle that Ford all over the bilge....
There is little to no reason to ever turn a pump faster than 5,200.
That being said, more information is needed about the current set up.
Stay away from fancy ignition systems for now, you could pill of the HEI and never see a single rpm gain.
Whoever said you cab easily over carb. a jet, just don't know jets.
Let me give you a scenario of what it's going on in a jet, take a heavy car and drive wot up the steepest hill you can find. That is how a jet absorbs hp.
GT
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The first two responses, myself and Gt both say larger carb. Cam it all you want, but the carb you have now is a huge bottle neck. And I agree with Ralph, a place divertor is always a best bang for buck. And I'm not sure which ford guru you spoke to, but if it wasn't Ralph, A&D engines or Paul Kane I'd check with them.
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Camshafts just move the torque curve which gives you more horepower at high rpm's.
Horsepower makes you fast, Torque makes you quick. There is a difference
And the stock foundation on a 460 ford are much stronger than gm.
I can twist. Mine all day long at 7200 rpm 3 seasons on it zero blow by and 165 #'s compression in each cylinder not a pound difference between cylinders
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Can anyone tell me what engine I have d9te-ab.
It also has 4d18 and an X with a backwards 2 in the valley.
Thanks
Also The casting Numbers on the heads are under the valve covers, Correct?
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Can anyone tell me what engine I have d9te-ab.
It also has 4d18 and an X with a backwards 2 in the valley.
Thanks
Also The casting Numbers on the heads are under the valve covers, Correct?
i believe the block is 1979 and up they other numbers/letters is the date code,
the head #is above the ex port right below the v/c rail
the cyl are longer in your block if i remember rite
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I pulled the valve cover and saw a bunch of different things so bare with me.
*The numbers 201
*there was what looked like a "W" with a big "C" and a smaller "C" kinda inside it
* 1h8
*ford logo
*circle with the numbers 1,3,5,7,9 or a 6 around the circle.
Sorry I know I probably overkilled it but thats what was under there
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sorry........ d3ve a2a
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The numbers on right above the the spark plugs , you don't need the valve covers removed to see it
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The block and heads are from a 79 thru 87 ford and the blocks were used in there trucks
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Camshafts just move the torque curve which gives you more horepower at high rpm's.
Horsepower makes you fast, Torque makes you quick. There is a difference
And the stock foundation on a 460 ford are much stronger than gm.
I can twist. Mine all day long at 7200 rpm 3 seasons on it zero blow by and 165 #'s compression in each cylinder not a pound difference between cylinders
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Imho valve train on the bbf if the Achilles heel.
Especially at high rpm. Goofy push rod angles...
Power curves can be brought way down low to.
Not going to get into the torque vs HP pissing match again, but without torque, there is no hp. You don't always need more rpm to make more HP, the equation works with higher sustained torque as well.
The performance world always wants you to believe it takes zillions of rpm to make good HP, gobs of torque will do the same thing. Keep in mind the volumetric efficiency of the pump in stock form Peters out at about 5500 RPMs.
GT
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Ok, with the little research I just did (Google) it seems I own the second worse flowing heads made for the 460.
With that being said Im going to do the 850 dp carb but is it all in the heads holding me back or will it still perform decent with just the carb untill I can find a set of heads?
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A good set of heads with a cam will bring the 460 alive along with a carb
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Would the carb help at all right now or is it held back too much with the heads?
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Carb is a must regardless, 850 will be great unless you are looking to build a lot of power. If you want to build more power do everything at once.
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post a pic of your boat, do you have a diverter???????
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I will when i can, I do not have a diverter. I have seen the hydraulic set ups but are there manual ones or do you have to do hydraulic?
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I will when i can, I do not have a diverter. I have seen the hydraulic set ups but are there manual ones or do you have to do hydraulic?
Personal preference.
Hydraulic allows you to keep both hands on the wheel...
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Hows that pump? Hows the wear ring how long since a rebuild???
As far as a 460 its like most motors even a stock block will love te right top end setup.
U need to know where u want your motor to make power are just trying to go fast or u have a ski boat and u want it faster?
A good cam company will tell u which cam to pick based on how u wanna drive it and yes u can go too big...
Not all hulls are fast or safe fast
Maybe u stated do u have vacuum secondaries
As far as diverter (manual is right now adjustment)
Just my two cents
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Actually, you don't have the worst flowing heads. The D3's are usually fine and can be ported to near ridiculous numbers if you want to do that. The C8/C9 D0VE heads do have larger intake ports and no thermactor humps in the exhaust ports (Some D3's don't have those either), but they also have smaller combustion chamber volume which will bump up compression ratio without changing pistons, another plus, unless you are changing pistons anyway.
Honestly, I've seen some pretty powerful 460's running not so modified D3 heads, and I agree you're gonna get more bang for the buck doing what Ralph and GT said. First thing is to get the RPMS up to the 5000-5200 range to get the pump operating in it's optimal range (Sounds to me like the pump is fine, loading the engine up quite effectively) and that dinky carb is likely the biggest culprit that is mostly killing you. Go with an 800 at least or an 850 better yet. Hell a 750 would help a lot, but that's really too small!
Your intake is really the best dual plane available for the 460, so you're good there. The RV cam isn't so bad, but it's designed to throw the torque curve into the lower ranges rather than higher which would be optimal for a Jet Boat. Still probably better off than the standard truck grind.
Gotta be kinda careful just throwing cams at these things. I've seen and heard great results with the Comp 286, 292 and 305's, but the rest of the valvetrain has to be up to snuff, and geometry carefully checked when doing it. By that I mean screw in rocker studs (If the heads are not already equipped), guide plates, GOOD chromemoly pushrods, valvesprings and retainers rated for the particular cam/lifter set up you plan to run, etc. Valve spring seats may need to be machined to accommodate whatever valve springs are required as well.
Personally, we're in the season now! I'd leave it mostly alone, save for the carb, Place Diverter and ignition recommendations thus far for the time being. Be plenty of time over the winter to tear into the engine for more HP/speed if need be for next year. You've a better idea what is really going on by then also. Run it and have fun!
The D9 blocks, Ralph is correct. Really just a change from internal balance to eternal allowing smaller throw weights on the crankshaft. This also means the bores go further down into the block, which I don't know that there's a plus or minus either way. Just don't mix up the crankshafts with older cranks. I've not heard of any cylinder wall thickness differences or anything, just an issue with certain stroker setups not working with the '79 and later blocks. :thumbup:
Ray
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Ok carb is on the way. Ebay item # 171016406562.
Holley 850 dp no choke or horns with 50cc pumps front and rear
We"ll see what shes got when it gets here....
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What size jets do you guys suggest running with this carb?
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What size jets do you guys suggest running with this carb?
Run it with the factory size jets and be prepared to go up one step from stock., also might consider checking into the power valve and dropping that down a bit too.
I will try to look up what the factory jets were...
Buy some Pam Cooking spray for the gaskets so you can get it back apart without having to buy more friggen gaskets.
GT
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It looks as if the 80s are what came in it stock. I will try it saturday and see what happens. :-\
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ok, Took it out today and it ran exactly as it did with the 650 double pump. :banghead:
With that being said, I think its time for a timing light.
Any other suggestions? Sorry im really not a mechanic and its showing but I am learning as I go. So far nothings blown up. :o
I do however know alot more about a 850 dp as for when i put it on it would not run and gas leaked everywhere. I took it apart and found the accelerator pump diaphram was busted and the carb just needed cleaned up a bit. I got lucky and had a 750 spreadbore carb here that had the 50cc diaphram in it so I used it since no-one around here stocked one.
Its just puzzling to me that the boat ran exactly as it did with the 650 on it, Im assuming the timing will be the next thing to zero in on?
4200 rpms at 53 mph gps is the best its doing.
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I took the boat back out and adjusted the timing back and forth with the timing light but in the end it ran better where it was before we started adjusting.
I believe at this point its gonna be the camshaft. That is definantly something that needs to be changed anyway and I will probably go ahead with a set off aluminum heads at the same time anyway.
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Just landed a place diverter (hydraulic setup) rudder and all. Well see what that does.
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Isn't 53 mph at only 4300 rpm pretty legit? You need to make a bunch more rpm. It ain't an Olds.
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Well I just picked up a diverter (hydraulic setup) and contacted berkley and they suggested a cam for the setup I have and its a 270h cam , lifters, and springs.
So im going to install these items and call it a day.
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Well, here I am again for an update.
I have the diverter installed and the cam and lifters.
I have not run it in the lake yet but we made a pretty big discovery in finding a few new problems once it was pulled apart. It seem all the valve seals were worn and leaking and the valve seats needed to be machined for the larger springs which being it was going to a machine shop we came to the realization that the heads were in need of rebuilding.
One of the main problems were the valve springs themselves, you could compress them with ease so they held no pressure worth speaking of.
I own my own buisness and I have to be on call this weekend so It will actually be during the holiday weekend before I can test it but It sure sounds alot better and a whole lot more responsive.
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Weak valve springs are probably a bigger problem than most people realize. Because of the rpm's we spin, and the extended run times at higher rpm's, the valve springs should be checked or replaced more often than most of us are doing so.
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comp cams 34-244-4 special grind for ford460
http://www.jegs.com/i/Comp-Cams/249/34-244-4/10002/-1 (http://www.jegs.com/i/Comp-Cams/249/34-244-4/10002/-1)
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My dad runs a 460 ford in his 76 hornet yeah it's pretty quick but I blew the engine about 5 years ago and learned about fords the hard way....
1. You spin a 460 ford past 5500 rpm it will blow after about 15 minutes
2. If you run a hydraulic flat tappet cam with more than .540 lift in a ford with non adjustable valve train by the end of the season it will go flat
3. If want to keep things on a budget go for reliability. Try to go fast for cheap your engine will be toast..
4. Any one that says they spin their engine past 7200 rpm regularly obviously drives an old rotary Mazda.....not a jet boat....
Run a cam with under 510 lift, duration under 280, on a 110 to108 LSA, good intake electronic ignition,and a good 750-850 carb. short hard burst are great don't try running wot for 5 miles up river or else you will be floating back
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Hey rivermikey you have a pic of your old mans hornet
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Yeah will get a pic he bought it new in 1976 and still has it and still looks good
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[attachimg=4][attachimg=3] some pics of my dads hornet
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Comp cams has a nice simulator program where you can select the cam, put in your engine specifics, and do a mock dyno run.
Pretty neat but you have to know a lot about what you have to get the right results, but it does make cam recommendations.
http://www.camquest.com/ (http://www.camquest.com/)
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Alright, i'm in need of help again.
I have located and am currently having a set of C8VE-E built but while I have it pulled down this far I though why not go with a bigger cam since now im gonna have the screw in studs with these heads.
Right now i'm running a comp cam 270 ( 270 intake 286 EXH duration @ .050 : 226 236 with a lobe sep: 112.0 valve lift .554 .557 ) With the matched set of springs from comp cams.
Ive had several people suggest a 305h cam or the big mutha thumper cam.
Any suggestions on this?
I am running the double valve spring setup that comp cams suggested but I can find part #s for them. Can I reuse these on one of these cams?
I'm running a 460 with bassett headers, a ported set of c8ve-e heads ,flat top pistons, a wiend stealth intake, and a 850 double pumper with 50cc.
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Sorry it took so long to get a pic up but here it is...
(https://www.socaljetboats.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1315.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ft584%2Fnolongergreen1%2F20130901_103217_zpsa19169ce.jpg&hash=eb8ffd9e1c7f01542005c804deb8295b38414093) (http://s1315.photobucket.com/user/nolongergreen1/media/20130901_103217_zpsa19169ce.jpg.html)
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5800 rpm will sprinkle that Ford all over the bilge....
There is little to no reason to ever turn a pump faster than 5,200.
That being said, more information is needed about the current set up.
Stay away from fancy ignition systems for now, you could pill of the HEI and never see a single rpm gain.
Whoever said you cab easily over carb. a jet, just don't know jets.
Let me give you a scenario of what it's going on in a jet, take a heavy car and drive wot up the steepest hill you can find. That is how a jet absorbs hp.
GT
you may feel you can not over carb a jet but you can over carb a "motor" which is far to over common..
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Not to mention unless you have a B" impeller there's no chance you will be spinning over 5,000 rpm...
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Alright, i'm in need of help again.
I have located and am currently having a set of C8VE-E built but while I have it pulled down this far I though why not go with a bigger cam since now im gonna have the screw in studs with these heads.
Right now i'm running a comp cam 270 ( 270 intake 286 EXH duration @ .050 : 226 236 with a lobe sep: 112.0 valve lift .554 .557 ) With the matched set of springs from comp cams.
Ive had several people suggest a 305h cam or the big mutha thumper cam.
Any suggestions on this?
I am running the double valve spring setup that comp cams suggested but I can find part #s for them. Can I reuse these on one of these cams?
I'm running a 460 with bassett headers, a ported set of c8ve-e heads ,flat top pistons, a wiend stealth intake, and a 850 double pumper with 50cc.
the 305 h is a great cam its a 285 lift
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Anybody to chime in on this would be great.
I have also have added a tunnel ram offenhauser set up with the single 850 carb and had to upgrade to a billet ready to run dist setup with an external coil.
If I run these heads c8ve-e would they be better than the alluminum set that on ebay all the time for I think 849.00 from ebayer clewwho40 or about the same. I dont want to spend another grand for little or no gains over the c8ve-e heads besides weight.
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My dad built this boat... love that you are fixing her up!