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boost4brains

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super newb. i have questions
« on: June 01, 2017, 09:48:26 PM »
so i did a thing, and i put my deposit down on an 87 picklefork cougar.  i'm excited and have big plans.  it only has the pump, which is a Berkeley 12jg with a B impellar.

Here's where things take a twist.  i build 2jz engines. i have a spare that is capable of over 1200hp that i plan on sticking in the boat. it will be heavily detuned to roughly 6-800hp

here's my questions. and i have been searching for over 2 weeks and having trouble finding real answers.

my motor is a high rpm motor. every single chart i've seen for impellers pretty much caps out at 5500 rpm.  that will be my cruising rpm.  my engine is capable of 9500 without breaking a sweat. 
do the pumps become ineffecient after a certain rpm?  what power band should i tune my engine to fall within.
as it sits i build about 38lbs @roughly 3500 rpms and peak at 42 @ 9000, where on the engine dyno, i'm hitting right at 1400.


secondly.  again no real answer to this, but hints of legallity hear adn there
do i have to have a wet exhaust if the engine is exposed and about the boat?
being a turbo motor i plan on just coming straight back with a bias cut


those are the big questions i have before getting on the water. everything else will come with experience. i can't wait to get it together and in the water, it will be a very unique build.
  • Boat #1: 1988 cougar
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driller41

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Re: super newb. i have questions
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2017, 10:16:08 PM »
I can't speak to much, but Tom has shared and extended pump chart on his site:  http://www.jetboatperformance.biz/pages/FAQ.html
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boost4brains

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Re: super newb. i have questions
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2017, 11:47:01 AM »
thank you for the link.

so it's to my understanding, that the higher the rpm, the higher the hp absorbed.  based on his chart, with a c pump, i would need 900hp at 7200 rpm?  am i reading that correctly.


what kind of strain does this put on the motor?  would this be like a every now and then run or something i could do everytime i hit the lake?  still trying to keep a good bit of reliability in this
« Last Edit: June 02, 2017, 12:00:20 PM by boost4brains »
  • Boat #1: 1988 cougar
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Re: super newb. i have questions
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2017, 12:07:50 PM »
do the pumps become inefficient after a certain rpm?

yes, kinda. Its a water pump, it can only flow so much. and there is a point of diminishing returns.


what power band should i tune my engine to fall within.

Tune the pump (cut the impeller) to suit the engines rpm.


do i have to have a wet exhaust if the engine is exposed and about the boat?

No. but it is fiberglass, which IS flammable.


Dan'l
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boost4brains

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Re: super newb. i have questions
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2017, 03:54:01 PM »
do you have any literature or links on cutting the impeller?  i've never heard of that before.

thanks in advance
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Re: super newb. i have questions
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2017, 04:09:46 PM »
do you have any literature or links on cutting the impeller?  i've never heard of that before.

thanks in advance

Its in here-

 http://www.jetboatperformance.biz/pages/FAQ.html

Scroll down to 'AMERICAN TURBINE JET DRIVE IMPELLER SPECIFICATIONS'

Cross reference the 'B' impeller to the 'impeller power calculator' here:
http://www.jetboatperformance.biz/pages/calculator.html (remember to select your impeller type)

These charts will give you a ballpark figure. Tom @ JBP is a wealth of info.

Dan'l


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exjet

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Re: super newb. i have questions
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2017, 05:11:22 PM »
I think your more limited by the nozzle size than the HP, and Rpm. I work on industrial turbine pumps and they all run at 1800-3600 rpm on vfd electronics. But toms chart is pretty relative to the pump curve charts I use at work


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exjet

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Re: super newb. i have questions
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2017, 05:14:01 PM »
I think your more limited by the nozzle size than the HP, and Rpm. I work on industrial turbine pumps and they all run at 1800-3600 rpm on vfd electronics. But toms chart is pretty relative to the pump curve charts I use at work


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He's right, tune the pump to the motor


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Stewie5409

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Re: super newb. i have questions
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2017, 05:49:53 PM »
A 2jz jet boat will be sick!


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Flusher

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Re: super newb. i have questions
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2017, 08:20:32 PM »
I think I spoke to you at the Long Beach races

Not exactly a newb question here.

A couple questions that you need to ask yourself about your actual usage model with this in mind, you do indeed want to tune your pump to your engine:

How long will the engine last if you set it on kill?  We had a few customers that were spinning over 9000 RPM.  These combinations were capable of more RPM and more power but were ultimately operated at less than peak potential.  The difference in operating expenses is changing a $1000+ set of valve springs every weekend vs. every pass.  How often will you have to tear it down to inspect and refresh?

How are you going to run this boat?  If at the river, are you going to wear out an engine every weekend making passes all day, every day or on the anchor enjoying socializing and cold beverages?

Lastly, you will eventually break your Berkeley suction housing.

Assuming that you will run it on kill, the pro stock boats run a Lenco gear reduction box to slow the impeller down.  If you can spin a BC impeller around 7500 +/- RPM, you will be right around where you want to be.  You will need your actual uncorrected numbers, RPM, and gear ratio, before you can't make a proper selection.

You want to run the largest impeller that won't stall your engine.  A larger impeller will help your launch.  Picture 1 illustrates the the difference between a 30-degree "A," or a "Large A" and a 33-degree "B" cut impeller.  This is a difference of over 5/8" in vane length.  Picture 2 is an attempt to illustrate impeller vane area.

As you cut the impeller down, you loose efficiency, but there is less load on the engine to allow it to rev to peak horsepower RPM.  More work is getting done, but only when the impeller is completely loaded.  Ultimately, it's about the total combination, not about optimizing one component at the expense of everything else.

Turbo engines make brutal torque.  If you don't balance impeller cut with engine output, you will blow a hole in the water.  Even then, you will most likely need some kind of launch profile.  The impeller won't start properly loading until the boat is moving.

I have been thinking a lot about how to maximize the launch of a turbo boat.  Even with minimal boost, you will probably be able to bounce off the rev-limiter on the hit.  If I were doing this, I would ramp in boost using an electric blow off valve so that engine output closely approximates power absorbed by the impeller.

I would not try to pull timing because it takes more time for the engine to recover once timing is reapplied.

You could do it with the waste gates, but you might have lag when the turbo(s) slow.  Opening the blow off valve(s) will reduce resistance against the compressor wheel, allowing the turbo to spool without resistance.  Then reduce the amount of bypass, increasing the boost as the impeller hooks.

We talked about adding a clutch in the mix.  I still think this is a terrible idea unless you employ some type of slider clutch that you can ramp in the power.  If the pump is engaged, accelerating the impeller from zero to 9000 RPM in a nanosecond, you will blow the pump apart.  I saw the carnage after a Jet-A-Away accidentally engaged on the trailer, supposedly at idle.  The Jet-A-Away exploded, the suction housing broke, a good 17-4 shaft bent and twisted, and the impeller keyway sheared.  There is just too much mass (11.5lbs.) in a stainless "B" impeller to dump it like that.

Cheers,

Joe
« Last Edit: June 05, 2017, 08:22:50 PM by Flusher »
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"I want to roll with my brother Joe" - Joe Bateman - January 29, 1950 ~ November 27, 2013

TrollerDave

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Re: super newb. i have questions
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2017, 08:52:22 PM »
I was waiting for Joe to reply to this. :D

Hey Joe, how do you think one of R&D's dual jets would do in this application? Could it help absorb that low-end torque you were talking about?
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Flusher

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Re: super newb. i have questions
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2017, 09:26:36 PM »
I was waiting for Joe to reply to this. :D

Hey Joe, how do you think one of R&D's dual jets would do in this application? Could it help absorb that low-end torque you were talking about?
The issue is with loading the impeller with water, especially on the hit.  If there is no water flowing through the impeller, suction is lost, and the RPM bounces off the chip.  You have to lift to allow the water to recover.no impeller (or impellers) will produce thrust spinning in air.

Stalling the engine is not a problem (yet)   I have been praying for the day that someone rolls in with a top fuel Brad.  Until then, the largest impeller I have worked on was a 9-1/2" 5A Dominator behind 3500+ horsepower.

I'm not trying to say anything negative about someone or their products, I think the multi-pump system has a certain "cool factor" but would have difficulty loading.
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boost4brains

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Re: super newb. i have questions
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2017, 05:50:57 PM »
thank you all for the information.

i doubt you talked to me, i'm on the other side of the country and have only seen one other jet boat on our lake in my entire life.  they never really caught on here like they did everywhere else in the country.

tuning the engine tq curves is relatively easy on these motors since everything is 100% controlled through a computer, including the boost. 
based off of most of this information i think i'm just going to tune peak power to right around 7800 and set the rev limiter to right under that.  a valid point was made with longevity and i plan on this being a weekend drinker that i can just haul across the lake in whenever someone gets antsy

thank you for the info. i'll def keep ya'll updated as it moves along. i'll be working on my thermostat retrofit this weekend and mounting up a water to air intercooler.  i haven't even picked up the hull yet, but i want the motor ready to go as soon as i get it here.
  • Boat #1: 1988 cougar
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Flusher

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Re: super newb. i have questions
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2017, 06:08:30 PM »
What kind of power can you make at 7800?
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boost4brains

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Re: super newb. i have questions
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2017, 06:16:26 PM »
What kind of power can you make at 7800?

1200+, without engaging kill mode.
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TrollerDave

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Re: super newb. i have questions
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2017, 08:52:20 PM »
1200+, without engaging kill mode.

1200 HP at 7800 RPM will get your knuckles white.  :o

There were a couple of guys over on Performance Boats Just Jets section that were running big turbo power. I'm not sure at what RPM though. Haas and Unchained were what they went by.

You mentioned the legality of wet exhaust. A lot of places require it because of noise. You'll have to find out what requirements your local lakes/rivers have. We have places here where it's required but they don't usually hassle you.
Some places you need mufflers to get passed the guard shack.  ::)

Lake Elsinore is our main local lake. They have a decibel limit but don't usually enforce it. I was testing my boat one day and didn't even make it halfway across the lake and motor died. Patrol boat pulls up and the kind lady officer yells "GET THAT BOAT OF MY LAKE". I'm sitting on the bow with a paddle in my hand and said "I'm trying". That was 20 years ago and haven't had a problem since. And I know my boat is nowhere near as loud as some others out there.
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boost4brains

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Re: super newb. i have questions
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2017, 05:21:07 PM »
1200 HP at 7800 RPM will get your knuckles white.  :o

There were a couple of guys over on Performance Boats Just Jets section that were running big turbo power. I'm not sure at what RPM though. Haas and Unchained were what they went by.

You mentioned the legality of wet exhaust. A lot of places require it because of noise. You'll have to find out what requirements your local lakes/rivers have. We have places here where it's required but they don't usually hassle you.
Some places you need mufflers to get passed the guard shack.  ::)

Lake Elsinore is our main local lake. They have a decibel limit but don't usually enforce it. I was testing my boat one day and didn't even make it halfway across the lake and motor died. Patrol boat pulls up and the kind lady officer yells "GET THAT BOAT OF MY LAKE". I'm sitting on the bow with a paddle in my hand and said "I'm trying". That was 20 years ago and haven't had a problem since. And I know my boat is nowhere near as loud as some others out there.

i have no question that it will be a white knuckle experience. i just want efficiency as well. if i just tune high power, without the correct tq curves, or proper power band, it's just a recipe for disaster.

as far as exhaust. i grew up on the lake here, and i've seen one jet boat my entire life and made it a personal mission to build one since. other than that everything else is all below the water line. most of the people around here just have family style ski boats. so naturally, this thing is going to break some necks and stir the pots. >:D
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Flusher

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Re: super newb. i have questions
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2017, 07:47:35 PM »
Your setup should really have a a full setback.  That would make it easy for you swap impellers for racing vs. cruising.

This concept isn't common in jet boats like it is with a prop boat.  However, with a truly variable horsepower engine, have one cut for racing and another for cruising.

What is the best tradeoff for making the most horsepower at the lowest RPM?
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JordanDangerfield

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Re: super newb. i have questions
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2017, 09:04:03 PM »
I'm stoked to see how this turns out! Someone built a 25' Daytona with a similar motor and that thing did like 125 mph.


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boost4brains

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Re: super newb. i have questions
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2017, 08:44:28 PM »
Your setup should really have a a full setback.  That would make it easy for you swap impellers for racing vs. cruising.

This concept isn't common in jet boats like it is with a prop boat.  However, with a truly variable horsepower engine, have one cut for racing and another for cruising.

What is the best trade off for making the most horsepower at the lowest RPM?


yeah with my laser i can just swap the prop whenever.  super convenient.


I'm stoked to see how this turns out! Someone built a 25' Daytona with a similar motor and that thing did like 125 mph.

i'm not sure if i'm prepared to go that fast. 100 was like my over achiever goal. 85 my realistic goal.

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dat1dsm

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Re: super newb. i have questions
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2017, 08:51:53 PM »
I build 4g63's but a 2jz jet would be crazy cool. ill be waiting for the build thread. O0
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boost4brains

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Re: super newb. i have questions
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2017, 11:57:34 AM »
I'm at another cross roads and maybe my terminology just isn't correct, but I'm trying to figure out mounting the driveshaft.

For my application, Toyota sells just the bell housing, so that was going to be my protection. Use an aluminum flywheel(so the starter has something to spin) but what the hell to I get to bolt to the flywheel to allow me to connect a driveshaft.

I was thinking of just making something on the cnc, but I'd rather make an adapter to an existing piece, in the event of breakage.

Also, thought crossed my mind. Anyone ever used a stall converter on a jet boat application. It would essential create a completely neutral situation at idle rpms.  Might just be over thinking.
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mash on it

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Re: super newb. i have questions
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2017, 01:06:13 PM »
I'm at another cross roads and maybe my terminology just isn't correct, but I'm trying to figure out mounting the driveshaft.

For my application, Toyota sells just the bell housing, so that was going to be my protection. Use an aluminum flywheel(so the starter has something to spin) but what the hell to I get to bolt to the flywheel to allow me to connect a driveshaft.

I was thinking of just making something on the cnc, but I'd rather make an adapter to an existing piece, in the event of breakage.

Also, thought crossed my mind. Anyone ever used a stall converter on a jet boat application. It would essential create a completely neutral situation at idle rpms.  Might just be over thinking.


PTO adaptor is what ya need. Like this: http://www.jetboatperformance.biz/pages/pto.html

And then a driveshaft to the pump. http://www.jetboatperformance.biz/pages/drive_lines.html

A Bellhousing is overkill and takes up too much room. Make a 4pt mount for that yote.: http://www.jetboatperformance.biz/pages/four_point_mount.html
Remember, you are putting as much weight as a Big Block Chevy in that Cougar

A ditch pump is essentially a high stall converter.

Hope this helps.

Dan'l

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boost4brains

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Re: super newb. i have questions
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2017, 06:07:40 PM »
Sure does thank you. You guys rock. I'll be posting up a build thread here as soon as I get a day off to drive and pick up the hull


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Flusher

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Re: super newb. i have questions
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2017, 06:55:24 PM »
I'm at another cross roads and maybe my terminology just isn't correct, but I'm trying to figure out mounting the driveshaft.

For my application, Toyota sells just the bell housing, so that was going to be my protection. Use an aluminum flywheel(so the starter has something to spin) but what the hell to I get to bolt to the flywheel to allow me to connect a driveshaft.

I was thinking of just making something on the cnc, but I'd rather make an adapter to an existing piece, in the event of breakage.

Also, thought crossed my mind. Anyone ever used a stall converter on a jet boat application. It would essential create a completely neutral situation at idle rpms.  Might just be over thinking.

Sounds like your best bet is to make your own PTO for a 1350 drive line.  I make these out of 7075-T6.  The others are just mild steel.  You will either need to make the PTO register to the crankshaft or the flywheel, depending on how much register your crankshaft has protruding or recessed relative to your flywheel or flexplate.
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