River Racer Jet Class Proposal

« **Reply #25 on:** March 17, 2013, 01:10:39 PM »

leave it the way it is and let everyone have fun !!!!!!

« **Reply #26 on:** March 18, 2013, 07:57:18 PM »

Quote from: MrEracer on March 16, 2013, 06:12:32 PM

And as to getting out your wallet to run CJ, that just got a whole lot more expensive today. Whose going to try and compete with Jack and Tom. Congratulations to them for setting the kilo record up by 11 mph, I hope they haven't killed the class in the process.
Shirl

Shirl,
do you honestly think we are gonna run the same set up on the circle track that we ran on a straight 3 mile course, not even. I (we) race because we're competitive, and want to win, thats why i do it. i want as much competition as possible, but i'm not going to go any slower, well maybe.
Come on, you did great last race keep it up and show what you can do.
see ya at Parker

« **Reply #27 on:** March 18, 2013, 08:45:06 PM »

You guys have a problem... NJ as is "Nostalga" meaning, from the point of view of the people on the beach, it's a parade race of vintage boats. The GPS rule then makes sense since your not trying to out speed each other but out drive each other. If you talk about RR Jet the "river racer" indicates it's more contemporary i.e. it's more "run what you brung to the river" kind of class and implies it's a "I spent more than you did" hardware over driver kind of race. But the bottom line is circle racing can't support ether class yet. Try to keep building CJ until you can maybe get 15 boat fields and TV time on Speed. Then the guy with a dusty old southwind might try to race in NJ and the guy who has the 1100 hp Rodgers without a ride plate will go try RR.

« **Reply #28 on:** March 18, 2013, 10:22:25 PM »

Quote from: Arappahow on March 18, 2013, 07:57:18 PM

Shirl,
do you honestly think we are gonna run the same set up on the circle track that we ran on a straight 3 mile course, not even. I (we) race because we're competitive, and want to win, thats why i do it. i want as much competition as possible, but i'm not going to go any slower, well maybe.
Come on, you did great last race keep it up and show what you can do.
see ya at Parker

Hey Tom,
I gotta say from my perspective, we all want to win, or at least have a chance of winning.
I just picked up the Warlock last week so that we may run a couple races this year, but after this weekend I have to revaluate that decision. R/R may be the place for us.
In 2011 my son and I lost US-1 by two points to Mark and the R&D team. It was painful and I wondered how is guy like me going to be able to beat a guy with a team behind him. Maybe we can't, maybe the class has evolved into a team class to be competitive.
You guys are a class act and I have the utmost respect for all of you.
Good luck with your US-1 quest
Feel free to call me 760-803-5484
Ron

« **Reply #29 on:** March 28, 2013, 08:26:08 PM »

I literally took a 70 mph, 18 foot, full upholstery, family jetboat and dropped a fin in it and went racing against full tilt race boats.

I freakin dominated..... (the back of the field)
And to think that every driver (except 2) was a rookie and there we went, under Terrys guidance, we lined up great and everyone finished safely and the energy in the pits and from the crowd when we got back was absolutely focking ELECTRIC!
It took me weeks to wipe that shit eating grin off my face.

Some guys had drivers and some of us pulled double duty.
The point was that anyone willing to yank all their interior out and put in a kill switch could do this and not because there boat hauled ass but to have fun "Racing"
I had never raced before and having the mph cap at almost arms reach made an occasional win seem attainable.

Terry said very early on that fresh blood is going keep jet boat racing alive .
Knowing I was a very small investment ftom the front of the pack kept me going.
A couple years ago there was some talk of making nj a requirment before stepping into cj which I thought was awesome.
I really can't see any negatives to the way nj is set up. It is perfect for what its set up to do.

Honestly words cannot describe how much fun nj is.
Just do it.
The entire class really is like one big team.
We all wanted to see everyone race and we all helped each other.
Regardless of wallets, not everyone "arrived" all the time.

Fuck! I could ramble on all night.

-beerjet-

« **Reply #30 on:** March 28, 2013, 10:44:00 PM »

I am just going to throw a couple pennies into the ring, here is a little disclaimer, just finished several glasses of a very nice wine with my spaghetti...

Way back when, there was this sport called Whitewater marathon racing, the sport was virtually brand new here in the states...

Here we were, we had an aluminum fishing boat, enough know how to be extremely dangerous, more time than money, and no fear... (otherwise known as stupidity)... And we got that old scow running hard, I think we even broke the 65mph mark and could still steer the thing.

We were running the small block class, up to 360 cubic inches, single carburetor, naturally aspirated.

Let me tell you this. We had a snowballs chance in hell of ever beating anybody. But we finished every leg of the race, didn't break or crash out and had a bunch of fun for cheap. I think we had $500 each in the boat including safety gear (there were three of us).

The next year, better boat, bigger motor, faster speed, more stress, waaaaay more money and a disproportionate lack of fun.

The funny part was, we took it too seriously, we actually finished in a much lowerplace overall because of mechanical failures.

All this being said. All of the fun can be had in the entry level and the experience is something you will literally remember forever.

What beerjet said is spot frikken on.

Don't get hung up on the rules, the fast boats break more often, the consistent boats make every start, most of all there is a ton of fun to be had,a long as you don't take it too serious.

I need to go sleep it off...

GT

« **Reply #31 on:** April 10, 2013, 09:49:39 PM »

cu limits cost money in any category class RR is kinda like a bracket class so the guy with the best driving ability has a huge advantage and decent hardware helps

fyi Jim Brocks cj460 is close to your purposed ci limit and it runs a flat tappet cam and runs in the 90's easily(handles like shit)

« **Reply #32 on:** April 11, 2013, 06:59:57 AM »

Quote from: 78CoLe on April 10, 2013, 09:49:39 PM

fyi Jim Brocks cj460 is close to your purposed ci limit and it runs a flat tappet cam and runs in the 90's easily(handles like shit)

Sounds like a perfect RR boat, takes a lot of skill to drive an ill handling boat... Okay, along with the cid limit, only allow one carb or T/B. You guys could have had just as much fun with class limits and no GPS. Do like the SE class does, target the rules to limit speed to 85mph. That way we could combine RR and SE when ever there was a low boat count. it would help both classes. I think it was really cool to see the jets duking it out with the flaty...

This class got off to a rocky start, but with some help I think it can survive... So what does it take? Obviously money doesn't do it... Change the rules to attract more interest. I'll campaign a RR boat if we ditch the GPS.
Shirl
CJ60

« **Reply #33 on:** April 11, 2013, 07:41:49 AM »

I personally think you should start your own class, leave NJ/RR alone.

« **Reply #34 on:** April 11, 2013, 01:17:38 PM »

Quote from: MrEracer on April 11, 2013, 06:59:57 AM

Sounds like a perfect RR boat, takes a lot of skill to drive an ill handling boat... Okay, along with the cid limit, only allow one carb or T/B. You guys could have had just as much fun with class limits and no GPS. Do like the SE class does, target the rules to limit speed to 85mph. That way we could combine RR and SE when ever there was a low boat count. it would help both classes. I think it was really cool to see the jets duking it out with the flaty...

This class got off to a rocky start, but with some help I think it can survive... So what does it take? Obviously money doesn't do it... Change the rules to attract more interest. I'll campaign a RR boat if we ditch the GPS.
Shirl
CJ60

so lets say you allow a 468ci limit that a 80 over chevy and a 60 over ford and a 60 over olds and lets say you must run a factory iron head, with a any production cast single 4 barrel intake, motors must retain stock stroke configurations, nothing over a 4.400 bore, nothing longer that factory length rods, limit the cam to a .600 lift at the rocker with a FT or .525 with a roller both measured at the rocker tip, no porting of the cylinder heads or intake manifolds, limit the carburator or TB to 850 cfm and only aloow a 1" carb spacer, stock valve sizes per head factory spec. and your LS based motor could only be the same .80 over bore with factory chevy parts not lsx or chevy race production parts IE cranks, blocks is this what your implying?

« **Reply #35 on:** April 11, 2013, 05:09:19 PM »

Okay, to keep Brad happy lets say we want to set up some rules for a hypothetical 'Ski Jet' class. The objective is to set it up like the SE class by restricting engine power so that the boats run about 85mph, no GPS. Also, lets set up the rules to keep the costs down and easy to police. The easiest thing to do is mimic the Comp Jet rules with lower cid limits. So I would propose the following engine rules:
1. Big block engines must run iron blocks with 468 cid limit.
2. Small block engines with iron block, same as big block limit, 468 cid.
3. Small block engines with aluminum blocks limited to 442 cid.
4. Aluminium heads okay for both small block and big block engines so long as the ports are in the original factory location. No spread port or raised port heads allowed.
5. Must run a cast aluminum intake manifold with a single 4150 carb pattern.
6. Any 4150 carb or throttle body is okay.
7. EFI is okay so long as it meets rule 6.
No other engine restrictions. I propose that there also be some general rules to limit boats that run above 85mph as follows:
General rule #1. Any boat running consistently faster than 85 mph (as determined by radar or spot check GPS) will be subject to running a restrictor plate or rev limiter to manage excessive speeds, imposed by the rules committee.
General rule #2. The first year, any boat wanting to run this class with a larger displacement engine will be grandfathered in but subject to general rule #1. Grandfathered boats must comply with all other engine rules except the cid limits. Participation of grandfathered boats in follow on years will be subject to rules committee discretion. (if they run 85 mph or less, no problem)
General rule #3. Boat hulls must meet the same rules as Comp Jet.

Some comments about these rules.
1. Since there is an 85mph speed objective backed up by potential engine restrictions (Gen. rule #1) it would not pay for someone to spend excessive amounts of money on an engine that would be restricted if it went too fast. This is the mechanism to keep the costs down.
2. It is not necessary to add a bunch of engine rules on cams, bore, stroke, rod length etc. because of Gen. rule #1. Therefore, the rules are easy to police and a P&G machine is all that would be needed to verify compliance. No need for tear down inspections and endless protests.

I offer the above as a discussion starting point. Lets have some rational discussion about this 'hypothetical jet boat class'. Since this is all speculation, no need to point out that we don't have enough boats now and don't need another jet boat class.

Shirl

« **Reply #36 on:** April 11, 2013, 05:23:06 PM »

I don't understand why another class is even needed.....what's the point of all this again?

-beerjet-

« **Reply #37 on:** April 11, 2013, 05:51:22 PM »

WHY are you trying to change the class when we don't even have enough boats to fill this one, this class was ment to take the boat you have and go out and have fun wether is 500 cu in or a blown small block you can take it out and have fun without building another boat, if you get hooked on it you can come out with a comp jet and build it to the rules,this class has no restrictions no limits, no cheaters, just a speed limit!!!!!! perfect to learn how to drive, this class bring out the driver in you!!!! LEAVE IT ALONE!!!!!!!!! CJ 460

« **Reply #38 on:** April 11, 2013, 06:11:15 PM »

Quote from: beerjet on April 11, 2013, 05:23:06 PM

I don't understand why another class is even needed.....what's the point of all this again?

-beerjet-

because he cant win in comp jet.

will you be doing away with rr? or is this a hole new class

« **Reply #39 on:** April 11, 2013, 06:30:04 PM »

The people in charge are usually pretty good about pushing issues to the level like they did when they decided to bring Comp Jet back.

I think the best I ever did was 3rd place and only because there was 4 boats and one broke.
No pressure, just go out and run!
Good times for sure.

-beerjet-

« **Reply #40 on:** April 11, 2013, 06:46:58 PM »

I agree why start another class when either classes arent being fullfilled and I also Believe any one wanting to run CJ or a proposed SJ class they need to spend their rooking time or maybe longer in RR Jet. this isnt about taking away from either class, I think what shirl is trying to get at is the option of a essentially a stock componets class that doesnt require building a all out competition motor and boat that has a bit more varaity of competition to it thats why no 80.999 speed limit is all

« **Reply #41 on:** April 11, 2013, 08:00:34 PM »

4. Aluminium heads okay for both small block and big block engines so long as the ports are in the original factory location. No spread port or raised port heads allowed.

Does this mean vortec and zz4 is out?

Dan'l

« **Reply #42 on:** April 12, 2013, 10:14:19 AM »

Quote from: mash on it on April 11, 2013, 08:00:34 PM

4. Aluminium heads okay for both small block and big block engines so long as the ports are in the original factory location. No spread port or raised port heads allowed.

Does this mean vortec and zz4 is out?

Dan'l

Dan, Under my plan any OEM casting would be okay including the ZZ4 and Vortec. Only aftermarket, non standard port heads would be excluded.

Ralph, No need to attack the messenger just because you don't like the message. I may not be winning but I'm out there every race running hard with the best Comp Jets in the country. Haven't seen you out there though... I'll be curious to see if you have the guts to climb up in the seat and hammer the throttle in an 800hp Comp Jet at age 71 like I do.

I am not trying to replace the RR/NJ class unless it fails. I think one problem with the RR/NJ format is the GPS speed is too high. Not many lake boats that can run 81 mph. If you drop the limit to GPS 70 mph you might find more takers... I just want to see an entry level class succeed whether it is RR/NJ or SJ, we need to cultivate more good racers that can step up to Comp Jet.

My opinion, yours may vary,
Shirl
CJ60

« **Reply #43 on:** April 12, 2013, 10:31:20 AM »

Mine was a 400-425 hp (on a good day) all steel, all gm, oval port solid flat tappet cam 2 bolt chevy in a fat pig hull and ran 74 and some change mph.
A lot of tuning went into that 74mph.
And I came in dead last 90% of the time.
So imma have to disagree on the 80 mph limit being an issue.
I would say, Grow RR/NJ into a consistent full class AND THEN, purpose another class.
What's killing RR/NJ is fresh blood!
The first race is the hardest!
I applaude your efforts but RR/NJ is perfect in that it encompasses any and every single boat that floats.
Get them on the water FIRST!
Then sell them on a spec class.

-beerjet-

« **Reply #44 on:** April 12, 2013, 12:07:51 PM »

I do not believe that another class is needed. RR/Nj is suppose to be an entry level class for those that might be interested in racing and have a family/river boat that they can do little safety modifications to and come out to have fun.For most it will be all that they want and need to do The GPS speed limit is so they can hone their driving skills . This is entirely a run what you brung class . When it was first used some ten+ years ago we started with 70 MPH and have moved it up to what we felt was reasonable. 80 MPH is a good limit. If they want to go faster then step up to CJ>SS<PS or Gn racing. In these times we are going thru its hard to fill existing classes.

« **Reply #45 on:** April 12, 2013, 12:43:18 PM »

Man this boat racing stuff seems complicated. I'd be awesome if there was a class that was simply a run what you brung family boat kind of class . I know via GPS my kona ran up to 68 with little more than 5 gallons of gas, a small tool bag, me and a fire extinguisher when I first took it out. No pd, logs, mild cam and a nasty booger patch on the bottom. Even then I ran it up higher than anyone in there right mind would an olds.

« **Reply #46 on:** April 12, 2013, 01:48:24 PM »

Quote from: terrytav on April 12, 2013, 12:07:51 PM

I do not believe that another class is needed. RR/Nj is suppose to be an entry level class for those that might be interested in racing and have a family/river boat that they can do little safety modifications to and come out to have fun.For most it will be all that they want and need to do The GPS speed limit is so they can hone their driving skills . This is entirely a run what you brung class . When it was first used some ten+ years ago we started with 70 MPH and have moved it up to what we felt was reasonable. 80 MPH is a good limit. If they want to go faster then step up to CJ>SS<PS or Gn racing. In these times we are going thru its hard to fill existing classes.

Terry, Please do not miss understand my position on RR/NJ. In my previous post I stated:
"I am not trying to replace the RR/NJ class unless it fails". I have specifically stated that I was not trying to add another class, but to make changes to the existing class that would improve participation. We both know that RR/NJ is on life support. Something needs to change to make it more attractive to potential new racers. I have suggested dropping the GPS speed limit or lowering the GPS speed. There have to be other ideas out there that will bring the boats off the lake and on to the track. If you do not do something, it's going to die... If all else fails and RR/NJ dies, I would then (and only then) be interested in something like a new SJ class to take its place... You would think that there would be nothing wrong with kicking around some ideas that would make things better, but all it seems to generate is animosity...
Shirl

« **Reply #47 on:** April 12, 2013, 05:27:13 PM »

O'boy, Can I be a GNJ? I have the big tanks!

« **Reply #48 on:** April 12, 2013, 05:54:25 PM »

Quote from: MrEracer on April 12, 2013, 10:14:19 AM

Ralph, No need to attack the messenger just because you don't like the message. I may not be winning but I'm out there every race running hard with the best Comp Jets in the country. Haven't seen you out there though... I'll be curious to see if you have the guts to climb up in the seat and hammer the throttle in an 800hp Comp Jet at age 71 like I do.

Shirl, that was not an attack, and no you have not seen me race. Thats because when I and a few others were making every race and being treated like step children just because we wanted to race our little jet boats in n/j so we could bring the c/j class back YOU were NOT there...

Hell i wont race c/j now so if you wanted a pat on the back there ya go

It seems that you are either trying to change rr to your advantage or do away with it all together when you cant fill it now.. I told you before, if you want another class bring the boats and Ross will put it in the program.. I am not against another class but first you must have boats, do you have 5 boats to make the show?? Bring the boats under the current c/j r/r rules and class and branch off from that, i can tell you from my experience of being a part of the group trying to bring c/j back, you will have to have boats and commitment from those boats before you have rules
ralph

« **Reply #49 on:** April 13, 2013, 07:51:22 AM »

Shirl I understand where your coming from. I am not ready to give up on RR/NJ . I believe there are plenty of people who would like to race and it's just a matter of family , finances, timing etc. We got three to show and I think the very first NJ race at Lake ming had a total of 4. There might nothave been enough time for some individuals to get their boats ready as I have been told. Human nature has a habit of people procrastinating until the last minute and then not being able to get it done. Lets wait and see until the next opportunity arises to schedule a RR/NJ race.

jim brock

Arappahow

wizard612

76 Bonneville

beerjet

GT Jets

78CoLe

MrEracer

Brad @ SCJB

78CoLe

MrEracer

beerjet

jim brock

Ralph Brunt

beerjet

78CoLe

mash on it

MrEracer

beerjet

terrytav

SoCalPSD

MrEracer

Bull20

Ralph Brunt

terrytav