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90ultra21lx

  • Karma: +1/-0
454 intake manifold
« on: September 23, 2016, 09:34:01 PM »
Hey guys, so u may or may not have seen my last post about 454 won't stay running, idles then shuts off, got it fixed, gs said o ring in jet, my big question is, my mechanic (yes he works on my classic truck not boat) but he's good mechanic lol... He took my carb apart before I took it to gs and he said a big problem is my intake manifold doesn't match my carb, I'm not a mechanic so doin my best to describe it, there's a spacer in between my carb and intake manifold, it's like an inch thick or so, and the holes in the stock spacer or bracket don't line up perfect to the holes in the bottom of my carb, I can see it pretty easily but it's been set up like this for long time according to old owner and I honestly believe him 100%... But mechanic is saying its starving for air, cause spacer holes don't line up n I need new manifold.. My question if this makes sense is do u guys agree or no with my mechanic??


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GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: 454 intake manifold
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2016, 11:03:57 PM »
Hey guys, so u may or may not have seen my last post about 454 won't stay running, idles then shuts off, got it fixed, gs said o ring in jet, my big question is, my mechanic (yes he works on my classic truck not boat) but he's good mechanic lol... He took my carb apart before I took it to gs and he said a big problem is my intake manifold doesn't match my carb, I'm not a mechanic so doin my best to describe it, there's a spacer in between my carb and intake manifold, it's like an inch thick or so, and the holes in the stock spacer or bracket don't line up perfect to the holes in the bottom of my carb, I can see it pretty easily but it's been set up like this for long time according to old owner and I honestly believe him 100%... But mechanic is saying its starving for air, cause spacer holes don't line up n I need new manifold.. My question if this makes sense is do u guys agree or no with my mechanic??


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Allow me to call bullshit.

That is likely an adaptive spacer. From square bore to spread and vice-versa.

GT
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

90ultra21lx

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: 454 intake manifold
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2016, 07:53:23 AM »


Allow me to call bullshit.

That is likely an adaptive spacer. From square bore to spread and vice-versa.

GT
 

So it's fine right? That's what I think since its been like that for long long time according to old owner, I know my mechanic is just trying to look out for me, he's a good old school guy, but we all wrong sometimes right haha


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90ultra21lx

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: 454 intake manifold
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2016, 02:14:42 PM »
Scratch boat running again, stranded on perris as we speak fuck I love gs marine


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sevans01

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Re: 454 intake manifold
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2016, 04:36:23 PM »

Scratch boat running again, stranded on perris as we speak fuck I love gs marine


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That sucks, hope you get it figured out soon. I've been burned by gs and will never go there again, but others have had great results.

My .02


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  • Boat #1: 2000 Carrera 202 xr
  • Boat #2: 1978 Eliminator Bubble Deck
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90ultra21lx

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: 454 intake manifold
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2016, 05:32:03 PM »

That sucks, hope you get it figured out soon. I've been burned by gs and will never go there again, but others have had great results.

My .02


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Yup I think I'm done with em too... Hey gt jets what'd u mean u call bullshit on the intake? U agree with my mechanic or with old owner on that??


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  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: 454 intake manifold
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2016, 07:26:09 PM »

Yup I think I'm done with em too... Hey gt jets what'd u mean u call bullshit on the intake? U agree with my mechanic or with old owner on that??


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I don't see how a port mismatch on the carburetor flange (unless we're talking 4500 to 4150) causing a running problem or intermittent die.

What did you say Greg's guys found?

I've known Shoe for a long time,  and have heard mixed results for a while now.

It's disturbing. , that being said,  sometimes when people monkey with stuff before bringing it to a shop (not say you F-ed it up) it can be a challenge to un-fock-it.

Can you explain exactly what it does/doesn't do?


GT
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

90ultra21lx

  • Karma: +1/-0
454 intake manifold
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2016, 08:03:07 PM »
I don't see how a port mismatch on the carburetor flange (unless we're talking 4500 to 4150) causing a running problem or intermittent die.

What did you say Greg's guys found?

I've known Shoe for a long time,  and have heard mixed results for a while now.

It's disturbing. , that being said,  sometimes when people monkey with stuff before bringing it to a shop (not say you F-ed it up) it can be a challenge to un-fock-it.

Can you explain exactly what it does/doesn't do?


GT

Totally hear you on messin with it, my mechanic just pulled the carb off and saw the mismatched spacer but didn't pull the carb apart, but gs knew that, I told em.. The silver plate in pic with screws in it is for quick change jets for higher altitude and gs said that they found a o ring from those plates that came off and was in the bowl I think? But the o ring was blocking the fuel, so he said if they gave me more problems they're pulling em off and putting back to stock but I really don't think that's the prob, so I bought boat, it sat 2 years before I bought it so took to gs, they went thru it, tune up, oil, plugs wires etc, everything to make it water ready and went thru it completely.. Went to puddingstone 2 weeks ago for 2 hours with old owner ran perfect, 4 days later go to Parker it dies 5 min after launch n never got running then gs finds o ring so take it to perris today, ran for 30 min but was slow and lagged, floored it and barely was doing 40, at puddingstone I was doing 55 no prob super quick, and after 30 min today I shut off to jump in water n check everything too n it wouldn't turn over n still won't it just cranks...


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« Last Edit: September 24, 2016, 08:09:55 PM by 90ultra21lx »
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90ultra21lx

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: 454 intake manifold
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2016, 08:08:01 PM »
There's another silver plate in back of air cleaner... I'm gonna call gs Monday morning n I truly hope he fixes this problem for free, it irritates me, I've spent $12-1300 there in 3 weeks on just getting my boat tuned up n water ready and a new place diverter cause old one was leaking, which I had to remind them to charge me for lol but anyway I have no prob paying for good work but at this point, this will be the 3rd time in for same thing and I'm kinda starting to think I should get someone else... I guess it depends on what gs says Monday morning cause I'm not paying them a dime for this at this point, am I wrong for feeling this way?? Please correct me if so guys, I have a lot of respect for this forum I'm new to it but I love it I've learned a ton already... Thanks in advance... 🙏🙏 if need more pics or video of it trying to start gt lmk


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Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: 454 intake manifold
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2016, 08:24:12 PM »
Please describe what it does when it dies.  Does it just sputter and die?  Does it die instantly like it just turned off?  Or do you shut it off and it just cranks and doesn't start again?
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"I want to roll with my brother Joe" - Joe Bateman - January 29, 1950 ~ November 27, 2013

GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: 454 intake manifold
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2016, 08:30:50 PM »
That "aluminum plate" is a metering block.

I really don't care for those too terribly much, but I have used them with success. If it ran before (but the Percy Plate), I would say it could be two things. You say it ran for thirty minutes, did it run good? or ran limited and was a turn from the start?

It sounds like there is a systemic issue with the fuel system. Does it lose fuel pressure at anytime? Do you smell fuel when it poops? you just cant get it to start?

Do you have a spare ignition coil? It almost sounds like the coil is taking a dookey. They will run until it overheats and shorts out, when they fail, they can do what you describe (run like absolute crappola).

Go to Greg, plead your case, but be cool, just explain the situation. It does not sound like he rebuilt the carburetor and also sounds to me like he was apprehensive about the repair. I personally would ask for an hour of troubleshooting so he gets an opportunity to save face and if he finds a failed coil, bad fuel pump, or something else, it will be on you, if you don't feel warm and fuzzy before the work is performed, take your boat and thank him for the hour. He may not go for it, but at least it will be a civil agreement.

When I had my shop, I would get boats that were hacked all to hell from other shops and shade tree mechanics and I can't tell you how difficult it is to catch "everything" on a once-over. I had a slight advantage because we had access to a water dyno, we could ring the hell out of them a few pulls to get an idea what it would do on the lake.

Unfortunately it meant pulling the engine and mounting it up, a three hour minimum charge. But it could save a lot of frustration. Add to that, my shop was less than ten minutes from a lake...  8)


Good luck...

GT



  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

GT Jets

  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: 454 intake manifold
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2016, 08:31:20 PM »
Please describe what it does when it dies.  Does it just sputter and die?  Does it die instantly like it just turned off?  Or do you shut it off and it just cranks and doesn't start again?


Exactly...


GT
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

90ultra21lx

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: 454 intake manifold
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2016, 08:34:19 PM »

Please describe what it does when it dies.  Does it just sputter and die?  Does it die instantly like it just turned off?  Or do you shut it off and it just cranks and doesn't start again?

Today I turned it off after 20 min and it wouldn't turn over again, and just now I tried and it still just cranks but won't turn over, I'll take a video in the morning of it trying to start... But when we were in Parker it just died out after 2-3 minutes after launch I got on the gas a little and it sputtered out... And the rest of wknd it would start when cold, but die out quick. Took to gs they found o ring in jet and I think they only ran it for a few min because it was completely dry, so they didn't hook up the hose... So today it started at home ran for a minute then started on trailer in perris before launch and then ran for 20 min, idled good but, was slow and lagged, like I said I floored it right before shut it off and I think we got to like 40 at close to 4000 rpm which is low for flooring it right?? I mean at puddingstone the speed limits 35 but I got to 50-55 few times real quick and had plenty more throttle left and old owner said right now it would easily do 60 n when jet n everything was new, 65-70 easy he said but like I said it did 50-55 no prob before but today was just lagging really bad and acting like it was starving for air... Maybe for gas but I felt like air


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90ultra21lx

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: 454 intake manifold
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2016, 08:37:28 PM »
In Parker, I replaced the fuel pump, the fuel water separator, and the gas tank switch, just was trying to go down line of fuel supply... But also, when I bought it, it had 1/2 tank or so in each and it was 2 years old, so I siphoned a total of 20 gallons out, that's bout all I could get, and put 91 in... I honestly forgot to put fuel treatment in before filling up but that was first thing I did in Parker obviously didn't do anything lol


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90ultra21lx

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: 454 intake manifold
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2016, 08:40:54 PM »
When I lift the hatch, I smell gas more than other jet boats I am around a lot with same set up


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Flusher

  • Karma: +84/-0
Re: 454 intake manifold
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2016, 08:58:00 PM »
Pull the plugs.  I was thinking ignition too, but it might be flooding out.
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90ultra21lx

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: 454 intake manifold
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2016, 08:59:42 PM »
Great idea, yea I mean I'm frustrated but I have had classic cars and I know how it is so like u said its hard to catch everything but it's frustrating he didn't run it long after knowing it left me stranded in Parker n now again... You said it could b 2 things, but mentioned the ignition coil only, or were u saying either that or something in my fuel system gt jets? Thank u for ur time by the way


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90ultra21lx

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: 454 intake manifold
« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2016, 09:11:48 PM »

Pull the plugs.  I was thinking ignition too, but it might be flooding out.

Will check them in morning and let u know, thank u


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  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: 454 intake manifold
« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2016, 09:33:26 PM »
Great idea, yea I mean I'm frustrated but I have had classic cars and I know how it is so like u said its hard to catch everything but it's frustrating he didn't run it long after knowing it left me stranded in Parker n now again... You said it could b 2 things, but mentioned the ignition coil only, or were u saying either that or something in my fuel system gt jets? Thank u for ur time by the way


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A dying coil will act like it's flooding out,  not enough spark to keep the fire lit. Will idle seemingly forever.

Pull a plug,  check to see what that looks like,  pull the dipstick and smell it for fuel (the oil that is).

If you had skunky fuel,  there is a chance the anti-siphon valves are fouled with crap. They are typically 1/4"mpt barb fittings on the pick up tube of the fuel tanks. They can be pulled and cleaned,  but would rather see you replace them, get the brass ones,  not aluminum.

Also,  did you try switching tanks? I always bring an outboard fuel tank with me for testing purposes in case I get my ass handed to me. Lol

GT

Did GS find the source of the o-ring/debris?
« Last Edit: September 24, 2016, 10:20:37 PM by GT Jets »
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

90ultra21lx

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: 454 intake manifold
« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2016, 09:45:04 PM »

A dying coil will act like it's flooding out,  not enough spark to keep the fire lit. Will idle seemingly forever.

Pull a plug,  check to see what that looks like,  pull the dipstick and smell it for fuel (the oil that is).

If you had skunky fuel,  there is a chance the anti-siphon valves are fouled with crap. They are typically 14"mpt barb fittings on the pick up tube of the fuel tanks. They can be pulled and cleaned,  but would rather see you replace them, get the brass ones,  not aluminum.

Also,  did you try switching tanks? I always bring an outboard fuel tank with me for testing purposes in case I get my ass handed to me. Lol

GT

Did GS find the source of the o-ring/debris?

Ok I will check these things as well... How would I check the coil? Or is it just a replace it kind of thing? That's fine if it is... I don't have a problem putting money into it, I just need it to be turn key reliable like the old owner said it was before it sat 2 years, and it sucks he didn't drain the fuel and he said he started it every month or 2 to keep everything flowing...

Yes, not today but at Parker and while I was at puddingstone I switched tanks a few times, where would I find those anti siphon valves? Also, I replaced the fuel tank switch at Parker... Gs said the o ring was from the aluminum plates I believe? He said he didn't like them and if they still have me problems he'd take em off, but I asked him then, why didn't u just do that now?? And his reply was go test it...


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90ultra21lx

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: 454 intake manifold
« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2016, 09:49:06 PM »
I thought that was kinda weird but now it just irritates me lol... So idk, I will offer the chance for him to troubleshoot it and actually run it for more than a minute but if I don't feel comfortable where do u guys recommend I go besides gs? Again, I'm going to give Greg the chance to make it right if the problem is even his fault, I honestly hope it's not and its something different cause I've already talked to him bout doing other stuff this offseason


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  • Karma: +192/-0
Re: 454 intake manifold
« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2016, 10:29:44 PM »
Ok I will check these things as well... How would I check the coil? Or is it just a replace it kind of thing? That's fine if it is... I don't have a problem putting money into it, I just need it to be turn key reliable like the old owner said it was before it sat 2 years, and it sucks he didn't drain the fuel and he said he started it every month or 2 to keep everything flowing...

Yes, not today but at Parker and while I was at puddingstone I switched tanks a few times, where would I find those anti siphon valves? Also, I replaced the fuel tank switch at Parker... Gs said the o ring was from the aluminum plates I believe? He said he didn't like them and if they still have me problems he'd take em off, but I asked him then, why didn't u just do that now?? And his reply was go test it...


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Doubt seriously he had the metering blocks in stock.

Sounded like he was cautiously optimistic about the fix.

The coil is easy enough to check,  pull the coil wire and put the end from the distributor  near a known good ground about 1/2" away and have someone crank it over with the key,  it should throw a nasty ass barking spark.  Plastic pliers come in very handy here.

If the spark is weak and yellow,  or you need to put it within an 1/8" to even get it to spark, chances are, it's the ignition coil.

West Marine stocks the anti siphon valves.

GT
  • Boat #1: 1992 Carrera 20.5 Elite (I/O bitches)
  • Boat #2: 19' Bubble deck Jet BBC Berkeley
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If i get some free time tonight at work, ill play with it and post it for everyone to see.

Time to man up and yank it John!  :banghead:
Ray

90ultra21lx

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: 454 intake manifold
« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2016, 12:41:51 PM »

Doubt seriously he had the metering blocks in stock.

Sounded like he was cautiously optimistic about the fix.

The coil is easy enough to check,  pull the coil wire and put the end from the distributor  near a known good ground about 1/2" away and have someone crank it over with the key,  it should throw a nasty ass barking spark.  Plastic pliers come in very handy here.

If the spark is weak and yellow,  or you need to put it within an 1/8" to even get it to spark, chances are, it's the ignition coil.

West Marine stocks the anti siphon valves.

GT


Well it's sad that I pay gs to do a complete tune up, over $900 and they don't touch the wires!!! These wires are clearly still numbered like they come from the factory... And they're older than shit, I payed gs to do this 2 weeks ago... And the boots are super old and definitely not 2 weeks old, correct me if I'm wrong but new wires come with new boots right? And these wires are obviously not 2 weeks old... Sad... Should b an interesting call to gs in the morning... At this point I have a hard time trusting them correct me if I'm wrong gt jets


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90ultra21lx

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: 454 intake manifold
« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2016, 12:45:33 PM »
Wow, to top it off, they don't even use Ac Delco plugs, this plug is 2 weeks old, made by ngk in Japan!!! I can't even get American made plugs from gs?? Wow... 👎👎👎👎


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90ultra21lx

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: 454 intake manifold
« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2016, 01:11:16 PM »
Found my receipt, it says they only replaced plugs, ok but question is, the wires were obviously old and in need of replacing but they just overlook it, don't mention it, nothing. It's crazy... I mean am I trippin? Am I wrong for feeling this way guys? 


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